Social Political correctness vs Islamophobia - is there compatibility of Islamic and Western values?

[Yehudim]

An Arabian reform religion ? West of India?

Out of curiosity why would you simplify it like that?

Indonesia, Malaysia etc are officially Muslim nations but are they to the west of Persia or India? Or did you mean it cause it originated in Arabian peninsula? So did the other two Abrahamic faiths in that case!

Muhammad made the religion in order to reform and lead Arab society but perhaps more importantly, it was made outside of the West and has little to do with Western culture.

Judaism is just a desert religion that has been Westernized due to contact with the West, and Christianity can arguably be labeled as a Jewish reform religion but it was made in the Roman Empire and directly influenced Western culture and thought.

 

[Denter]

Well Orthodox Judaism has remained fairly conservative and cohesive. The big problem is that due to the nature of their religion they don't attract new blood unlike Islam. But at the same time I think you have a point, that we Muslims shouldn't take the resiliency of our religion for granted.

You can choose to listen to whichever scholarly opinion you like, which obviously means that the most popular interpretations will out compete the more difficult ones. You've seen this happen in Judaism in the last 100 years pretty dramatically- and so it will be with Islam in this country, where the majority will be like reformed Jews, with smaller remnants that hold on to tradition and are increasingly endogamous and culturally close knit.

This is why the principle of authority can not be compromised; its bad news in the long term.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

Fundamentalist Christians can barely coexist with modern western values.

Islam makes hard core Christianity seem very progressive in comparison.

The far lefties pushing for multiculturalism with Islam don't really know what they're getting themselves into imo.

These are the same people that march for black America, but will never live amongst black folks by choice. My sister in law is like this. Talks about how much she hates racist conservatives but is fucking terrified of black women after getting beaten in a grocery store parking lot many years ago. She complimented some lady on her hair and the lady along with her friend attacked her. She plays it off like she only sees people as individuals, but you can see her get visibly nervous around black women.

What the hell. What city does your sister live in?

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Where is this happening as I have not seen it.
The liberalizing isn't near the levels of Christianity and I doubt it ever will be.
Are there any videos of these liberalist Muslims and the modern types of mosques with women running things that you speak of? And Muslims speaking in acceptance of even homosexuality and marriage of Muslim women to non-muslims?

The real litmus test is how many are able to renounce Islam altogether if they want to without threats or social exclusion. That is freedom of religion.

http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/

"If you covert you die...the penalty for leaving Islam is death in all schools of Sharia, both Sunni and Shiite...Islam promises heavenly rewards to individual Muslims who take the law into their own hands. Sharia states that the killers of apostates and adulterers are not to be punished as murderers"....

"Muslims are not just distrustful of the West, but they are distrustful of one another. People are often more afraid of their neighbors and family members than the police. Thus we see husbands or father pressured to apply Sharia by killing an adulterous wife or daughter, or a perfect stranger participate in killing of an apostate in the public square....The power of Islam comes from turning Muslim against Muslim with a reward in heaven."



In Europe in any case it's definately not like that in the main part. They generally will try to segment themselves into ghettos and follow their own laws where they can. In some cases this goes to the extreme including committing 'honor' killings on members of their own families or communities or others for what they perceive as misbehaving or not complying. Again it's not a majority by any means at least in Western countries, but a signifigant percentage still. The France teacher killing is another example.
And like it or not it's had some effect.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/511817-teachers-lessons-offend-muslims/

Following their own laws isn't really the case in the UK in my experience. As an example a place I used to work at had a decent amount of muslim workers there and maybe 5% tops of the girls covered their head in any way.

 

[TheMaster]

You don't understand the first thing about sharia law, its probably more compatible with American values than the values of the French Revolution are.

There's reaching then there's 'reeeaching'.
Care to elaborate on exactly how you think this is?

Also can I get your position on the following questions as you are certainly what one would consider a well integrated moderate western Muslim.

If a family member of yours decides to renounce Islam how would you react?

If a female family member decided to marry a non Muslim how would you react?

If person was publicizing or talking about Charlie Hebdo material, how would you react?

How would you feel about a homosexual Muslim?

Do you believe Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia law in Western countries?

 

[Ramon Antonio]

That sounds pretty compatible with western culture TBH.

CRT must have been written by a Muslim, how they justify being non Muslim as a crime is what the west is teaching us these days about being white lmao

Only difference is Islam is based on text that’s hundreds of years old. CRT is modern, and heavily promoted today.

Religion of peace strikes again!

 

[Spiritual Sight]

That sounds pretty compatible with western culture TBH.

CRT must have been written by a Muslim, how they justify being non Muslim as a crime is what the west is teaching us these days about being white lmao

Only difference is Islam is based on text that’s hundreds of years old. CRT is modern, and heavily promoted today.

Violence is a part of western culture for sure. That part fits the bill. I think the only question is the motivation for violence.

 

[Hatorade]

What the hell. What city does your sister live in?

Seattle

 

[moosaev]

Now that's a point worth unpacking but I don't know how many serious responses you're going to get.

I'm going to largely agree with you though. One of the increasing tenets of Western values these days is a rejection of strong moral/religious beliefs in others. Almost like we've reached a point where we want other people to be hedonistic while insisting that we must have strong moral foundations. Not a perfect description but I think you can get what I'm saying.

Considering the foundational parallels between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Islam should be quite compatible with Western values. But it's not and I suspect the primary reason is because they have very strong convictions about the tenets of their faith while, as you said, Christianity and Judaism have watered theirs down to varying degrees.

This is exactly correct, the antipathy toward Islam from the religious right isn't because the values aren't compatible (the values are almost identical), it's because they see a formidable rival.

 

[Denter]

To the West of India and Persia? It's an Arabian reform religion. Certainly parts of the Muslim world are inheritors to the Western tradition, but Islam as a religion being Western?

To the West of India and Persia? It's an Arabian reform religion. Certainly parts of the Muslim world are inheritors to the Western tradition, but Islam as a religion being Western?

What would be a better definition?

 

[Islam Imamate]

There's reaching then there's 'reeeaching'.
Care to elaborate on exactly how you think this is?

I'm reaching a bit but the central point is that in many parts of America, political and social life was organized around local religious norms with little central interference not unlike many parts of the Muslim world.

Meanwhile the French Revolution brought about a massive, centrally organized bureaucratic state that was overtly hostile to religious institutions and religion in public life. The Founders and most Americans soured on the French Revolution as they heard of the details and there were Muslims in early America since some of the slaves retained their native religion and they seemed to have got along fine, or at least more or less as fine as other freed blacks.

 

[Islam Imamate]

You can choose to listen to whichever scholarly opinion you like, which obviously means that the most popular interpretations will out compete the more difficult ones. You've seen this happen in Judaism in the last 100 years pretty dramatically- and so it will be with Islam in this country, where the majority will be like reformed Jews, with smaller remnants that hold on to tradition and are increasingly endogamous and culturally close knit.

This is why the principle of authority can not be compromised; its bad news in the long term.

On specific cases you take the opinion of this or that scholar but in general the consensus of the scholars is what truly matters and the scholars are pretty resilient in guarding the tradition.

I think the bigger problem is that Muslims don't really care about the consensus of the scholars and will, with ample help from non-Muslims looking to subvert Islam, elevate rogue scholars who are happy to endorse the progressive zeitgeist.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Also can I get your position on the following questions as you are certainly what one would consider a well integrated moderate western Muslim.

As for your questions

If a family member of yours decides to renounce Islam how would you react?
Disappointed

If a female family member decided to marry a non Muslim how would you react?
Disappointed

If person was publicizing or talking about Charlie Hebdo material, how would you react?
Don't care, maybe slightly peeved.

How would you feel about a homosexual Muslim?
Depends. If they are openly gay that is disappointing. If they are in the closet then good, I am proud of them.

Do you believe Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia law in Western countries?
Of course, so long as it doesn't conflict with the law of the land. Most Sharia regulations are about personal practice, not public law.

 

[Denter]

There's reaching then there's 'reeeaching'.
Care to elaborate on exactly how you think this is?

Also can I get your position on the following questions as you are certainly what one would consider a well integrated moderate western Muslim.

Why would support these things you've questioned him about? Most of that stuff makes a lot of sense.

 

[Yehudim]

What would be a better definition?

Originating in and having a significant impact upon the West and western culture?

 

[TheMaster]

Why would support these things you've questioned him about? Most of that stuff makes a lot of sense.

Which parts make sense?

As for your questions

If a family member of yours decides to renounce Islam how would you react?
Disappointed

If a female family member decided to marry a non Muslim how would you react?
Disappointed

If person was publicizing or talking about Charlie Hebdo material, how would you react?
Don't care, maybe slightly peeved.

How would you feel about a homosexual Muslim?
Depends. If they are openly gay that is disappointing. If they are in the closet then good, I am proud of them.

Do you believe Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia law in Western countries?
Of course, so long as it doesn't conflict with the law of the land. Most Sharia regulations are about personal practice, not public law.

Ok so that's fine, although does dissapointed mean that's all and it stops there? Would you ostracize your sister for marrying a non Muslim and renouncing Islam?

Do you support the fundamental human right of people to make educated life decisions including freedom to choose their religion which is also a secular right in the West?

I understand your views about homosexuals keeping closeted. But what if a gay family member was not closeted, do you think that more should be done in Islamic countries about the issue to stop these type of incidents? Muslims fear other Muslims including family members, more than the state a lot of times.

https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...-killed-family-days-seeking/story?id=77690474

 

[WuDi]

Western values and culture are all about being physically weak, emotionally vulnerable, and forever accepting, extreme Islam is all about being strong in mind and body and to not accept wickedness.

It's a match made in heaven if you ask me

 

[TheMaster]

The Western society is the most annoying society to ever exist... Dude if you wanna allow gay marriages and other detestable stuff like that fine do it in your territories and basically do you and I do me but don't get mixed up in my shit. Thinking the western way of life is cool or the only way of life is the biggest fallacy in the western society but this form of life-style is viewed backyard in the east and labelled as Jahiliyaa meaning literally the way of the jahil(Backyard ignorant). This people have lived such life-styles centuries before in the Babylonians, Eygptians, Symarians etc etc.. Sodom and Gomorrah etc etc.. They have seen all that and done all that but they understand that it is indeed a backyard life-style in of itself with consquences for inner society and want no part of it. If you wanna drink from that cop fine go ahead and do it at your pleasure but don't come in here and tell me of values it just doesn't fly with the east..

But never assume the east will join you in this evil path to another Babylonian era of self-destruction... Gays have more rights where same sex marriages is allowed etc etc.. God please no.... Hell to the fukin no.. Keep that shit to yourself and stay far away from me and my descandants.. No to self-destruction.. No mas

It's not about accepting gay marriage or extreme leftist ideologies, personally I'm against persecuting anyone for who they are and I supported civil unions for gays but I didn't support calling gay civil unions 'marriage' and giving it the same standing as actual marriage between men and women.

But the larger issue is the West supports freedoms and secularism which are not found in other cultures. Although originally predominantly Christian, you are allowed to openly practice Islam here and they even let you have a mosque constructed.

In most Muslim countries you would be arrested for just wearing a cross and certainly no church or temple allowed.
So you can appreciate the Western values in this way.

 

[Denter]

Originating in and having a significant impact upon the West and western culture?

That's a tautology. Is the west a geographical expression? A racial one? Or a cultural one?

 

[Denter]

It's not about accepting gay marriage or extreme leftist ideologies, personally I'm against persecuting anyone for who they are and I supported civil unions for gays but I didn't support calling gay civil unions 'marriage' and giving it the same standing as actual marriage between men and women.

But the larger issue is the West supports freedoms and secularism which are not found in other cultures. Although originally predominantly Christian, you are allowed to openly practice Islam here and they even let you have a mosque constructed.

In most Muslim countries you would be arrested for just wearing a cross and certainly no church or temple allowed.
So you can appreciate the Western values in this way.

This last part is just not true