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Social Political correctness vs Islamophobia - is there compatibility of Islamic and Western values?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by TheMaster, Jul 20, 2021.

  1. mjfan23 Gold Belt

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    Hey who is the prophet of capitalism or imperialism? Bezos? Soros? Gates? I want to befriend this prophet so later they remember me a prophets companion and my decedents are assumed to have mythical powers.
     
  2. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Its not exactly unique to the Islamic world, if we stick with the analogy to desertion then execution for that was the norm in the West not that long ago.

    If you look at classical Islamic texts on the matter the non-belief itself isn't the issue, its the public renunciation of Islam and therefore renunciation of allegiance to the community. If you personally don't believe in your heart but remain a part of the community then its a matter between you and G-d and not supposed to be punishable.
     
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  3. Denter Silver Belt

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    Islam is probably is incompatible in its current received form, but Muslims aren't, as we are seeing in the US.

    Really, any traditional religious system is incompatible with the modern west, and we are seeing this play out. In the late 19th century the pope was still condemning democracy and freedom of religion. We'll see where all this goes.
     
  4. Azam Brown Belt

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    When you are mixing with a community often enough you get a jist of people's views/thoughts on issues.

    Just like if someone here went to Israel and made an effort to speak with Palestinians/Jews - you'd get a jist of the dynamics involved in each community.

    I think it's significantly more on the dot when you are a part of the community and not an outsider looking in.

    No community is one monolith of views - it's on a scale from liberal to conservative. So I won't deny instances of ex Muslims having bad experiences - it definitely happens. It's just not the norm.

    But I do feel you can get a jist for what the general view is.

    Are there very conservative leaning Muslims - of course.

    But with that link you posted of ex-Muslims and people leaving the religion - I can safely say from experience that is not the normal response.

    Parents may disapprove of you becoming an atheist for sure but at the end of the day you're their kid.

    Using an abusive parent's reaction to their child becoming an ex-Muslim (and threatening violence) and then reflecting that as the standard response - is very disingenuous and to any rational thinking person should be problematic when you try to conflate that reaction with being the "go to" reaction.

    People that think this is the common response in the British Muslim community - either have prejudices or preconceived notions of British Muslims (most of it from a very colonial mindset imo), simply rely on traditional media to form opinions or just don't have any Muslims within their close circle of friends that can challenge some of these misinformed and often archaic views.
     
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  5. Azam Brown Belt

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    I wouldn't be surprised.

    But then again they aren't the only group - Muslims who are critical of any of these governments/countries also get it - fethullah gulen being one example of many.

    My point is not to take away from the seriousness of ex-Muslims being threatened - but to try to show that these threats are very rarely based on someone leaving a faith as opposed to their criticism of it or of the countries/governments they have left behind.

    Is that right? No.

    But can we also say that these actions are endorsed by the majority? I think probably not.

    Unless you are Salman Rushdie - who is still disliked lmao.
     
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  6. Azam Brown Belt

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    I don't think the issue is Islam or the Qur'an.

    I think the problem is the reactionary responses on both sides of the spectrum - people are the problem.

    Not enough level heads and allowing the reactionaries to control the discourse.

    Just a general lack of unity and compassion from all sides.

    In regards to traditional religious systems - most of the benefits you guys have in the US can be attributed to these religious movements imo.

    A famous example being often overlooked role of Christianity on the civil rights movement.

    You have the anti-thesis of that with the KKK and Christianity.

    This is why I say people are the problem and lack of compassion/unity is the issue.
     
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  7. SanchoMF Equally Useless

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    You're right : denouncing 'something' and being heavily ostracized or punished (even by death) was a common practice around the world until a few hundred years ago and more specifically blasphemy laws with rather heavy-handed punishment weren't uncommon even more recently. But neither exist in the West at this point and haven't done so for a while now.
    Today, luckily dare I say, a person's faith is seen as a private matter that doesn't tangle the society or the nation : an individual is free to believe or not to believe in their choosing without fear of getting whacked, I doubt that in many cases a person would denounce their faith not wanting to be a member of a family or community? What the pressure of repercussions does is that it makes that infidel's life quite difficult and I doubt that anyone will benefit from it.
    Do people need to flaunt their religion publicly? I don't think so.
    Do people need to flaunt their anti-religion views publicly? I don't think so either.
    Should everyone be able to live their lives without being harmed or harming others? Absolutely.
     
  8. Ramon Antonio Black Belt

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    I have no idea what you're trying to argue, but in that specific reply I was responding to the guy who said it's not a problem to openly leave Islam. I highly doubt that and gave that BBC article to support that. Everything else you mention is irrelevant. I do think Islam (unless you cherry pick) is incompatible with the Western lifestyle, but that was not based on the above argument.

    Here's some further evidence that it's not that easy to leave Islam.
    Apostates as a Hidden Population of Abuse Victims - Hari Parekh, Vincent Egan, 2020 (sagepub.com)
     
  9. Ramon Antonio Black Belt

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    Apostacy is a taboo (in almost any religion), even if parents would beat their children for it, it's not like they're going to tell others that they did this. Children who get beaten for that also won't report their parents to the police if it would happen. So the fact that it's not in the open doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    I have plenty of friends with Muslim backgrounds too, and it's true, some families are very chill and open, while others are more strict. However, as a non-Muslim I already know several people who went through abuse/ostracization because of leaving Islam or even for being non-practicing, and I know more who won't even tell their family that they don't believe and just go through the motions.
     
  10. Ramon Antonio Black Belt

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    And Western culture is highly individualized. In other words, we're back to Islam not being compatible with Western culture.
     
  11. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Bruh I'm not talking about the Inquisition here, soldiers were executed for desertion as recently as WWII. In fact in the US death remains as a punishment for desertion though it hasn't been applied since WWII to be fair.
    Like I said, the idea that one's community has claims upon its individuals is not unique to Islam and some conception of that was the norm in the West until relatively recently in the form of conscription/draft which was only abolished in Western countries in the post WWII era and not even by all Western countries. The US had a draft during Vietnam so it wasn't unheard of in the post WWII era either. And of course this tradition goes all the way back to the Greek city-states which, with the exception of Sparta, relied on militias rather than a standing army and therefore had similar norms around such duties. Is the Greco-Roman tradition incompatible with the West because of this?
     
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  12. SanchoMF Equally Useless

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    War time laws are something else and similar to someone else here posting about the Japanese soldiers choosing to die rather than losing their honour, they hold no place in a civil society.
    What I'm referring to here is in fact the time when similar beliefs are laws were common in the Western societies under normal circumstances : that's been hundreds of years.
     
  13. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    The point is that in its historical context what we refer to as apostasy was basically a crime that was seen in a similar light to desertion/treason and both those crimes are punishable by death in the West with examples from mere decades ago.

    You say war time is different but IIRC(haven't double checked to be fair) the hadith that mentions death for apostasy was narrated in the context of period of civil strife in the Ummah. If so, would you therefore you agree it was legitimate in that context?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  14. SanchoMF Equally Useless

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    Yes I suppose so. A lot of this is a tangled mess of religion and politics (identity and other) and having countries with the laws and religion entwined won't make it any better.

    I doubt that the majority cares about if a person denounces their faith or not (at least in the West) but as usual the angry and vocal part of the community will be active and the pressure by these individuals is enough to direct the opinions of more than a few others. That probably that applies to many other things, not just religion.
     
  15. SanchoMF Equally Useless

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    I am saying that wartime laws are different because they are in fact written in the context of soldiers fighting a war where it boils down to kill or be killed, thus a soldier running away from that duty is weakening the side he's supposed to be fighting on.
    So if he hadith says that and ONLY in the context of war, is it only because of the interpretation that people still actively think so and even carry out such things?
    What's the correct interpretation : That apostasy shouldn't be punished by death? Or it should be punished by death?
    Are there other hadiths that are wrong as well and shouldn't be applied to the lives of today?
     
  16. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Right, so basically the exact context that the Muslims were in in their formative period when it was essentially tribal warfare where manpower was critical. So in other words, if that was indeed the context then you agree that death for apostasy was legitimate then right?
    I'm not a scholar so I can't tell you the "correct" interpretation. I can say that even if death is the penalty of apostasy in peace time its not something that's supposed to be carried out by vigilantes, its meant to be applied after a trial with sufficient witnesses and with a chance for the accused to repent and avoid the penalty and that rarely happened in premodern times. This is why historically speaking all these things that non-Muslims like you clutch their pearls at were barely, if at all, relevant or common in premodern Muslim societies.

    Btw the idea that the West hasn't executed people for their beliefs is just not true, fascist sympathizers in the aftermath of WWII were convicted of treason and in some cases executed just for their intellectual sympathies with fascism and that's just decades ago. What you seem to misunderstand is that unchosen duties to the community and punishment, including death, for transgressing them is not unique to Islam and not unheard of in the West. The difference is simply which community demands allegiance, one's confessional community or one's national community. And of course even the former has precedent in the West.
     
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  17. SanchoMF Equally Useless

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    If you want to consider it a wartime law then my answer is YES. And what is that during peace time?

    [/QUOTE]I'm not a scholar so I can't tell you the "correct" interpretation. I can say that even if death is the penalty of apostasy in peace time its not something that's supposed to be carried out by vigilantes, its meant to be applied after a trial with sufficient witnesses and with a chance for the accused to repent and avoid the penalty and that rarely happened in premodern times. This is why historically speaking all these things that non-Muslims like you clutch their pearls at were barely, if at all, relevant or common in premodern Muslim societies.[/QUOTE]
    There are multiple interpretations from the same scripture so who is right? A common man isn't allowed to interpret the words because why exactly : he might call into question what's been written?
    Are there other hadiths that hold no value in today's world? Which one's are they?
    Death sentences are carried out in Muslim countries up until today by vigilantes and courts, it makes no difference really who does it : you're still trying to downplay the fact that someone's getting killed for their religious beliefs or the lack of.

    [/QUOTE]Btw the idea that the West hasn't executed people for their beliefs is just not true, fascist sympathizers in the aftermath of WWII were convicted of treason and in some cases executed just for their intellectual sympathies with fascism and that's just decades ago. What you seem to misunderstand is that unchosen duties to the community and punishment, including death, for transgressing them is not unique to Islam and not unheard of in the West. The difference is simply which community demands allegiance, one's confessional community or one's national community. And of course even the former has precedent in the West.[/QUOTE]

    Don't tell me that you're trying to say "see, your guys were doing it so it's not so bad if my guys do it too, it's the same" with some extra steps.
    Everything you're bringing up is related to war, now to WW2 and fascism so the most harshly judged concepts in the West. What's your point :
    That death for apostasy is a passage related to war? Ok, fine.
    How does that apply to people thinking that it's totally fine in today's world, in a peaceful secular society?
     
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  18. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Like I said I am not a scholar. I believe some use the more contextualized, wartime interpretation and others support the death penalty for public apostasy generally but take that with a grain of salt since its a layman opinion.
    In Islam intentions matter a lot, if there are two interpretations that are both defensible in light of the canon text then as long as one has the intention of getting it right and can defend that position with reference to the canon then its considered a case of permissible disagreement. There are of course central questions which there is no disagreement but most issues fall under that.
    Because a common man isn't trained in the scripture. Its the same reason you don't take legal opinions from people who aren't trained in law. That's not unique to Islam, its the case among Jews as well.
    You're asking me pretty basic questions that suggest you're not really well read on this topic. There are millions of hadith that are graded on their authenticity by the scholars, most being deemed inauthentic with a core set of canon hadith collections. These canon hadith collections differ between Sunni and Shia though there is overlap.
    Sure and that's come to be much more common in the modern era and its due to modernization, not Islam. Most of these places did not have some centralized legal apparatus until it was introduced via colonialism. If there was some sort of state produced and enforced law it often existed in parallel to the Sharia courts like the Ottoman Kanun.
    So you call me out for apparently downplaying killing people for their religious beliefs in the same post that you downplay people getting killed for their political beliefs? Don't you see the hypocrisy there?
     
  19. SanchoMF Equally Useless

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    How am I downplaying political violence exactly?
    By saying that war, WW2 and fascism are the most harshly judged topics in the West? In which way am I brushing off anything with this statement..?
    I'm not downplaying death-sentences being dished out during war, I'm stating the obvious which is that they're used on only in war-related 'crimes', anything similar to that was reeked out from the laws in the West. I couldn't be happier about that this is the case.

    I must admit that I'm not well-versed in the hadiths, but I won't let such detail get on my way really.
    I'm merely asking the question that if death for apostasy was merely created for war (as you also stated) is it not absolutely obsolete? What else is there that's obsolete, given that this stuff was written up a long time ago?

    You can not answer straight because you consider yourself inadequate to answer and it all goes out to window when people start interpreting old scripture as they see fit in which case it doesn't matter which branch they represent : there is dogma and there's agenda, of 'their interpretation' being the only real one.

    What's your personal opinion about someone being sentenced to death from apostasy?
     
  20. Ramon Antonio Black Belt

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    I never argued that there are no instances in which the Western societies decide that a certain collective good is more important than certain individual liberties. There are plenty, like taxes, traffic regulations etc. That doesn't mean Islam with all its outdated practices and beliefs fits into modern Western society. It's clear to see in many big cities with large Muslim populations. They don't want to fit into Western society, they create small communities in which they follow their own rules as much as possible. Look at France, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

    I still believe Muslims can fit in, but only if they cherry pick their religion (like most Christians).
     

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