Prime Wanderlei Silva would beat new generation champions

BrazilianDude said:
You have a point...
How they are getting away with it is still a mistery to me... Wand does not seem like a particularly smart dude. I don't think he would beat the tests.
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I think beating the tests is mostly a money thing and having someone on their team that knows how to beat the tests. Romero and Costa don't seem any smarter than Wanderlei.
 
NoBiasJustMMA said:
You need to rewatch those fights then cause he had very good fight IQ in his prime(not that he was in the Bisping fight but his fight IQ was much closer to what it was during his prime). He had a noticeable decline in tactics and fight IQ as he left his prime around the back to back KOs from Cro Cop and Hendo.

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/6/...ranklin-Vitor-Belfort-judo-chop-mma-technique

In his prime Wanderlei had a very good jab and kicks that he used to set up his hooks and clinch, as he left his prime he stopped using most of his weapons and relied mostly on hooks that he didn't set up. Same sort of thing happened with Fedor and Rampage as they got older, they stopped using all of their tools and weren't nearly as good.
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I'm not going to go at one of the most popular fighters of all time.I said what I said and stand by it. Wanderlei was a brawler and him being on the wrong end of these infamous kos kind of proves my point. His career became endemic in his late twenties - how great of a fight IQ could he have had ? I understand wanderlei s fan base will stand behind him with heavy bias .... no matter what.
That's fine - it speaks to his violent fight (fan) friendly style and how much people enjoyed him( and why his career regressed which, again, speaks to my point).
 
Franklin U. said:
I'm not going to go at one of the most popular fighters of all time.I said what I said and stand by it. Wanderlei was a brawler and him being on the wrong end of these infamous kos kind proves my point. His career became endemic in his late twenties - how great of a fight IQ could he have had ? I understand wanderlei s fan base will stand behind him with heavy bias .... no matter what.
That's fine - it speaks to his violent fight (fan) friendly style and how much people enjoyed him( and why his career regressed which, again, speaks to my point).
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Read the article, anyone who watched Wanderlei's career saw a clear decline in his fight IQ. You are basing your opinion on Wanderlei after his fight IQ declined acting as if it never existed. Its like when new fans of MMA claim x fighter who is passed their primes was never any good, you're better than that.

I won't stand behind any fighter no matter what, you're just wrong and you should at least read that article if you aren't going to rewatch any of those fights I listed where Wanderlei showed great fight IQ.

Wanderlei's fight IQ and gameplanning was way better pre Cro Cop 2 than it was post Cro Cop 2, it's super obvious, before that he had a strong jab and kicks that he regularly used to set up his hooks and clinch game and he also would throw in takedowns. After that he did almost nothing but throw hooks at people minus the Bisping fight where he fought smart one last time.

It's the same exact regression of style that Rampage and Fedor went through when they passed their primes and became headhunters too, that doesn't mean they never had good fight IQ or gameplanning.

Rampage 2 is a good example of Wanderlei being more well rounded and having better fight IQ than he did post Cro Cop 2, the reason Wanderlei landed that big hook that rocked Rampage and led to the finish was cause Wanderlei had been landing hard jabs on Rampage so Rampage tried to duck the jab and got caught with the hook.
 
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Mixfight said:
A fully geared up, prime Wand from Pride was nothing to fuck with. He threw down on the feet with no fear against a physical prime Hunt. Just the level of TESTOSTERONE you would need to match Hunts intensity as a MW. Insane.

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You think he beats Jones or Usman?? They grapple fuck him, even as juicy as he was.
 
Mixfight said:
A fully geared up, prime Wand from Pride was nothing to fuck with. He threw down on the feet with no fear against a physical prime Hunt. Just the level of intensity you would need to match Hunts intensity as a MW. Insane.

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Lol at being mw. Wandy was well over 200 lbs. When he actually fought at mw he looked nothing like that.

Also you have to be completely fucking retarded to believe a Wandy, under usada and off the gas, beats Jones.
 
Evangelion said:
Lol at being mw. Wandy was well over 200 lbs. When he actually fought at mw he looked nothing like that.

Also you have to be completely fucking retarded to believe a Wandy, under usada and off the gas, beats Jones.
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Jones isn't "off the gas" even under USADA. I don't think Wanderlei would beat Jones prime for prime but if they fought in a ring with Pride rules Wanderlei has a really good shot since Jones won't have nearly as much room to keep him at range and he can't elbow and the gloves are curved so "accidental" eye pokes don't really happen. I still would favor Jones but not nearly as much as I would in an octagon with north american rules.

I do think prime Wanderlei beats most of the top 5 LHWs not counting Jones.
 
NoBiasJustMMA said:
In what way does a ring help TDD? The cage helps it way more as you can lean on it much more easily and you cannot be bounced off a cage like you can with ropes. You keep saying that a ring helps with TDD but you aren't giving any reason whatsoever why that would help.

We see guys not getting takedowns every event in a cage because the cage is in the way, if they were in a ring, the guy with his back on the cage would just get bounced off the ropes and taken down like Arona constantly did to people in Pride.

The cage also makes it much easier to get back up, you can much more easily wall walk back to your feet with an actual wall than with ropes.

Wanderlei was in his prime while he was fighting in a ring, he was passed his prime by the time he started fighting in cages that has way more to due with his record.
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Lol are you seriously asking in what ways a ring helps w/ TDD? Because if you have a poor ground game and you're fighting someone with a good ground game...then you're strategy should just be to stand back against the ropes. If you get taken down then allow yourself to get taken down outside the ropes because you know they'll restart you standing up in the ring. I can't tell you how many times I saw Pride fighters do this because they couldn't wrestle or preferred to stand up the entire fight.

Knowing this has an effect on fighters who are great on the ground and they know it gives an advantage to fighters who prefer to stand up. It's really not that complicated.
 
FrankDux said:
Lol are you seriously asking in what ways a ring helps w/ TDD? Because if you have a poor ground game and you're fighting someone with a good ground game...then you're strategy should just be to stand back against the ropes. If you get taken down then allow yourself to get taken down outside the ropes because you know they'll restart you standing up in the ring. I can't tell you how many times I saw Pride fighters do this because they couldn't wrestle or preferred to stand up the entire fight.

Knowing this has an effect on fighters who are great on the ground and they know it gives an advantage to fighters who prefer to stand up. It's really not that complicated.
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Are you even reading the posts you are replying to? I went over why this doesn't work, if you want to take someone down in a ring with ropes you can literally bounce someone off them and take them down, you cannot do that in a cage because there isn't much bounce and it's a wall.

It is also much easier to get back to your feet in a cage by scooting to a wall and leaning on it while standing up, that is much harder to do with ropes since it's not a wall.

If you got taken down in Pride and fell out of the ring they did not restart the fights standing they would restart the fights on the ground in the middle of the ring, I don't think you even watched Pride cause everything you're saying about it is wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Having a ring (vs a cage) forces fighters to stand and fight more than take fights to the ground. Conversely, having a cage (vs. ropes) allows well rounded fighters to easily neutralize dudes who just wanted to come out balls to the wall throwing bombs. This is one of the reasons why Wandy did do well in cages vs a ring.
 
FrankDux said:
Having a ring (vs a cage) forces fighters to stand and fight more than take fights to the ground. Conversely, having a cage (vs. ropes) allows well rounded fighters to easily neutralize dudes who just wanted to come out balls to the wall throwing bombs. This is one of the reasons why Wandy did do well in cages vs a ring.
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No it does not, no matter how many times you say it doesn't make it true. A cage helps TDD much more than ropes cause you cannot bounce off them and simply cut the corner to get a takedown like Arona did in almost every fight.

It is also much harder to get back up with no wall to lean on and if a fight was stopped while the fighters were on the ground due to being too close to the ropes they did not restart the fights on the feet, everything you're saying on this particular topic is wrong.

1:55 in this video Arona bounces Fedor off the ropes twice, the first time he doesn't get enough of a bounce and he does it a second time then cuts the corner, the ropes didn't help Fedor at all but they certainly helped Arona, in a cage that type of takedown technique isn't possible because the cage doesn't cause you to bounce back like that.

2:00 into the video Arona bounces another fighter off the ropes to get a takedown.

2:20 into the video Arona bounces Wanderlei off the ropes to take him down.

2:30 into the video Arona bounces Wanderlei off the ropes to take him down again.

2:38 into the video Arona bounces Wanderlei off the ropes and sweeps a leg to take him down again.

 
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NoBiasJustMMA said:
Jones isn't "off the gas" even under USADA. I don't think Wanderlei would beat Jones prime for prime but if they fought in a ring with Pride rules Wanderlei has a really good shot since Jones won't have nearly as much room to keep him at range and he can't elbow and the gloves are curved so "accidental" eye pokes don't really happen. I still would favor Jones but not nearly as much as I would in an octagon with north american rules.

I do think prime Wanderlei beats most of the top 5 LHWs not counting Jones.
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Jones performances clearly haven't been as good under usada. Also there are plenty of other cases of pulsing. This isn't some shit usada invented. It's been documented. Wandy was juiced to the fucking gills in Pride. We wouldn't see the same guy under usada.

Beyond that assuming he doesn't pop I think he loses to Jones, Machida and DC for sure.

Probably loses to Gus as well. Glover, Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, Vitor, Chuck and Tito he could beat.

Also ain't no one ever fighting mma in a stupid ass ring ever again. Well at least in an org that actually matters.
 
Evangelion said:
Jones performances clearly haven't been as good under usada. Also there are plenty of other cases of pulsing. This isn't some shit usada invented. It's been documented. Wandy was juiced to the fucking gills in Pride. We wouldn't see the same guy under usada.

Beyond that assuming he doesn't pop I think he loses to Jones, Machida and DC for sure.

Probably loses to Gus as well. Glover, Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, Vitor, Chuck and Tito he could beat.

Also ain't no one ever fighting mma in a stupid ass ring ever again. Well at least in an org that actually matters.
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I haven't seen any other than that one guy that claimed it happened to him I think he was Russian or Ukrainian but no one verified his claim.

I haven't seen any real research that shows that "pulsing" can happen and certainly not that you can pulse for more of a substance than what you popped for more than 8 months prior, that makes no sense unless you have ingested more.

Costa and Romero are under USADA and are passing tests.
 
Evangelion said:
Jones performances clearly haven't been as good under usada. Also there are plenty of other cases of pulsing. This isn't some shit usada invented. It's been documented. Wandy was juiced to the fucking gills in Pride. We wouldn't see the same guy under usada.

Beyond that assuming he doesn't pop I think he loses to Jones, Machida and DC for sure.

Probably loses to Gus as well. Glover, Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, Vitor, Chuck and Tito he could beat.

Also ain't no one ever fighting mma in a stupid ass ring ever again. Well at least in an org that actually matters.
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I haven't seen any other than that one guy that claimed it happened to him I think he was Russian or Ukrainian but no one verified his claim from what I found on Google.

I haven't seen any real research that shows that "pulsing" can happen and certainly not that you can pulse for more of a substance than what you popped for more than 8 months prior, that makes no sense unless you have ingested more.

Costa and Romero are under USADA and are passing tests.
 
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