Ring out in BJJ / submission grappling - good or bad idea?

[TroldeAnsigt]

Would adding a "ring" around the mat area of bjj matches improve the format?
Encourage less stalling and runnig away, and also takedowns since they can lead to a point instead of just resetting. Would also stop people from running to the edge when being grabbed in stand up situations.

Thoughts on this? What do you think would happen?

 

[RemyR]

Might sounds dumb but I’d be interested to see BJJ/grappling in an octagon for similar reasons, only in a cage you can’t fall out between the ropes.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Cage grappling is an objectively better format, IMO, but it ups the logistical difficulty of setting up tournaments by an order of magnitude.

 

[-guerilla-]

ring out is ESSENTIAL to quality grappling competition
[maybee not game over but at least points]

I have been involved with grappling my whole life and the "push back" you get from ring out scenarios create the most awesome throws in sports

not to mention destroys all the "edge of mat" BS thats SO DETRIMENTAL to grappling sports

[sounds like you read my Sumo thread]

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/why-sumo-is-the-worlds-greatest-grappling-sport.4000291/

 

[RJ Green]

i've wanted this to happen ever since i saw the chuck norris karate ring. put a foam pit around it. i've also played too much tekken/soul calibur and got into martial arts so i could do the shit i saw in video games/ninja turtles/power rangers.

 

[-guerilla-]

i've wanted this to happen ever since i saw the chuck norris karate ring. put a foam pit around it. i've also played too much tekken/soul calibur and got into martial arts so i could do the shit i saw in video games/ninja turtles/power rangers.

its a wildly misunderstood dynamic

I always thought it HILARIOUS that judo has struggled so hard in trying to emphasise throws YET FAILED to adopt this most basic of concepts...

the hilarity is further compounded by the FACT that judo and sumo are literally sisters!!!

IJF=FAIL

 

[peregrine]

its a wildly misunderstood dynamic

I always thought it HILARIOUS that judo has struggled so hard in trying to emphasise throws YET FAILED to adopt this most basic of concepts...

the hilarity is further compounded by the FACT that judo and sumo are literally sisters!!!

IJF=FAIL

Of course you would twist this to fit some perturbed theory.

Now you will twist it to portray you knew it all along.
There is a penalty for going out of bounds. Get 3 total and you're disqualified.

First you write in the Judo thread why penalize a smart defensive fighter, it's like some overlord forcing fighters to fight like mating animals now you write

ring out is ESSENTIAL to quality grappling competition
[maybee not game over but at least points]

I have been involved with grappling my whole life and the "push back" you get from ring out scenarios create the most awesome throws in sports

not to mention destroys all the "edge of mat" BS thats SO DETRIMENTAL to grappling sports

[sounds like you read my Sumo thread]

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/why-sumo-is-the-worlds-greatest-grappling-sport.4000291/

Sumo is one of the great arts because first to loose your footing and touch with any body part is a loss. This changes the meta and the counters. I chose not to participate in your grandeurized threads.

What also makes it great is he who controls the others movement can dictate the fight, a big throw or little throw isn't necessary. Driving someone out of the ring equates to clinch control, ability to put someone in to a wall or bus is a win.

 

[peregrine]

The cage is the 3D grappling that most grapplers lacked for sometime which transfers over to fighting in something like an elevator or in a even more confined space like a car. A car ceiling can be used as a base.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

I think it would be good to see. I'm annoyed each time someone goes to the edge to stand, so he effectively cant be double legged or even single legged. Or guys rolling out of the mat in leg entanglements.

 

[-guerilla-]

Of course you would twist this to fit some perturbed theory.

Now you will twist it to portray you knew it all along.
There is a penalty for going out of bounds. Get 3 total and you're disqualified.

First you write in the Judo thread why penalize a smart defensive fighter, it's like some overlord forcing fighters to fight like mating animals now you write


Sumo is one of the great arts because first to loose your footing and touch with any body part is a loss. This changes the meta and the counters. I chose not to participate in your grandeurized threads.

What also makes it great is he who controls the others movement can dictate the fight, a big throw or little throw isn't necessary. Driving someone out of the ring equates to clinch control, ability to put someone in to a wall or bus is a win.

Providing a hefty penalty for any ring out is critical to grappling Sports

Those of you who are seasoned wrestling coaches like me know how edge of the mat wrestling can affect the contest

I don't think you should manipulate the rules to make people more aggressive... and I certainly don't think you should remove traditional attack options

However I think ring out is essential and integral to create big spectacular throws and ring domination which is a critical judging criteria in all combat sports

There's a radical difference between being a careful counter Grappler and running stalling edge of Mat tactics

Make stepping out of bounds an ippon and you will see a phenomenal amount of incredible throws instantly

 

[ChickenBrother]

I like the idea, but to make it work they'd have to fix the inconsistent IBJJF scoring system. Ring outs encourage forward movement and discourage moving backwards. This is consistent with rewarding TD's but it's NOT consistent with allowing guard pulls without penalty, or leniency re. passivity under current IBJJF rules.

The current system that allows a player to concede a takedown by pulling guard WITHOUT giving TD points to opponent and then allows guard puller to sweep for 2 points, trading positions with the opponent they just pulled guard on, is mathematically moronic. Essentially, it's OK to pull guard from standing but it's NOT OK to pull guard if you're in your opponent's guard.

 

[-guerilla-]

I like the idea, but to make it work they'd have to fix the inconsistent IBJJF scoring system. Ring outs encourage forward movement and discourage moving backwards. This is consistent with rewarding TD's but it's NOT consistent with allowing guard pulls without penalty, or leniency re. passivity under current IBJJF rules.

The current system that allows a player to concede a takedown by pulling guard WITHOUT giving TD points to opponent and then allows guard puller to sweep for 2 points, trading positions with the opponent they just pulled guard on, is mathematically moronic. Essentially, it's OK to pull guard from standing but it's NOT OK to pull guard if you're in your opponent's guard.

Pulling guard or dropping into a leg attack is a great counter to a big throw but is a LOSING maneuver that must be scored as a takedown at the least

the ring out system encourages territorial domination and creates a situation where both athletes push in and that is where the best action in grappling occurs

without ring outs edge of Mat bailout become a constant game problem that destroys the sports appeal to the general audience

Take a hint from the most successful grappling sport in human history

 

[ChickenBrother]

Pulling guard or dropping into a leg attack is a great counter to a big throw but is a LOSING maneuver that must be scored as a takedown at the least

the ring out system encourages territorial domination and creates a situation where both athletes push in and that is where the best action in grappling occurs

without ring outs edge of Mat bailout become a constant game problem that destroys the sports appeal to the general audience

Take a hint from the most successful grappling sport in human history

Agreed, ring outs work and are consistent with the overall scoring systems in say Sumo or freestyle wrestling - you need to move forward and attack.

I'd be interested what ring outs would look like in BJJ but until they make other changes, I feel it would confuse the already conflicted ruleset. You'd be encouraged to go for TD's but still allowed to pull guard, move backwards, be passive but NOT allowed to go out or be pushed out of the mat area. I can see that leading to some seriously schizophrenic rule gaming behavior.

 

[-guerilla-]

Agreed, ring outs work and are consistent with the overall scoring systems in say Sumo or freestyle wrestling - you need to move forward and attack.

I'd be interested what ring outs would look like in BJJ but until they make other changes, I feel it would confuse the already conflicted ruleset. You'd be encouraged to go for TD's but still allowed to pull guard, move backwards, be passive but NOT allowed to go out or be pushed out of the mat area. I can see that leading to some seriously schizophrenic rule gaming behavior.

I can remember going to Jiu-Jitsu clubs and staring in confusion at the guy below me wondering what the hell he was thinking

They would roll into a ball try to grab a submission and then roll back into a ball when I pulled out of it

I can't recall a single Jiu Jitsu athlete working a stand-up game

every single time we locked up they would flop on the ground and try to snatch a submission

having a MMA mentality I was happy to float over them and think about all the strikes I would be landing while they would roll around playing their goofy game of sports BJJ

Competing in Jiu-Jitsu was even sillier as I would see the most suicidal positions rewarded and while smart fight tactics were punished

 

[ChickenBrother]

I can remember going to Jiu-Jitsu clubs and staring in confusion at the guy below me wondering what the hell he was thinking

They would roll into a ball try to grab a submission and then roll back into a ball when I pulled out of it

I can't recall a single Jiu Jitsu athlete working a stand-up game

every single time we locked up they would flop on the ground and try to snatch a submission

having a MMA mentality I was happy to float over them and think about all the strikes I would be landing while they would roll around playing their goofy game of sports you jitsu

Competing in Jiu-Jitsu was even sillier as I would see the most suicidal positions rewarded and while smart fight tactics were punished

Yeah sport BJJ is now pretty different from Vale Tudo. It's the best newaza around which is why I train it, but I am concerned I'll eventually lose my wrestling/Judo mentality and end up pulling guard when it really matters.

For pure grappling, I like the ADCC ruleset. Sub only with no points for first part of match. If no sub in that time, point round starts with penalties for pulling guard and passivity. There's no ring outs but I think they could work well there.

 

[-guerilla-]

Yeah sport BJJ is now pretty different from Vale Tudo. It's the best newaza around which is why I train it, but I am concerned I'll eventually lose my wrestling/Judo mentality and end up pulling guard when it really matters.

For pure grappling, I like the ADCC ruleset. Sub only with no points for first part of match. If no sub in that time, point round starts with penalties for pulling guard and passivity. There's no ring outs but I think they could work well there.

All grappling sports should penalize ring outs and any position that makes you a punching bag

Go coach wrestling at your local highschool to supplement your BJJ

 

[yetanother]

Yeah sport BJJ is now pretty different from Vale Tudo. It's the best newaza around which is why I train it, but I am concerned I'll eventually lose my wrestling/Judo mentality and end up pulling guard when it really matters.

For pure grappling, I like the ADCC ruleset. Sub only with no points for first part of match. If no sub in that time, point round starts with penalties for pulling guard and passivity. There's no ring outs but I think they could work well there.

With ring outs it would be fun to see Tayane go full out man-bear-pig mode in the absolute and try her best to sumo some some dudes of the mat.

 

[ChickenBrother]

With ring outs it would be fun to see Tayane go full out man-bear-pig mode in the absolute and try her best to sumo some some dudes of the mat.

That's a good point. Ring outs are great for rulesets where aggressive TD's are a deciding factor. Sumo, freestyle, greco and I could see it working in Judo. But in BJJ it would allow a strong Judoka or wrestler to game the rule and turn the contest into a sumo match, completely avoiding the ground game and repeatedly pushing opponent off the mat for the win. I for one would love to compete in BJJ with ring outs.

But in BJJ absolute division, you'd see some hilarious mismatches - Tayane vs. anyone comes to mind. Although this match of hers already looks like sumo...

 

[rmongler]

Cage would be best, so that people learn how to grapple using your environment (and remove reset/out of bounds/fleeing the mat problems).

Not everyone can use cages everywhere though, so rules for scoring step-outs are the next best thing.