Running and knee/joints pain

[SalvadorAllende]

Hey sherbros. I have a question for you guys today.

I'm almost 34 and in pretty decent shape. I lift weights at home and bike a lot outside (about 4/5 hours at week)
A few months ago I decided to go for a run and did about about 8km (5 miles) and I was kind of spent after it.
Cardio wise I think I could have continued for a long time after but my joints (specially knees) were killing me. It took me about 2/3 days to fully recover.
I'm pretty light (about 135/140lbs) so it's not a matter of me putting a lot of weight on my joints and I was wearing brand new running shoes (I always use them because they are more comfortable).

I never had any serious injury but my body has some wear and tear after many years of kickboxing and muay thai. I can squat and do all kind of leg excercises without problems tho.

My question is.. Am I completely ruined for running or can I start running less and maybe my joints will get used to?

Kind of wanted to do a short thriatlon somewhere down the line (which would require to improve my swimming too when they open the pools again) but I think this might take me out of that.

 

[RemyR]

Did you run when you were younger? Some people just can’t run without fucking themselves up. I got higher arches in my feet and even with measured orthotic inserts I get bad plantar fasciitis if I run more than once a week.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

I'm pretty light (about 135/140lbs) so it's not a matter of me putting a lot of weight on my joints and I was wearing brand new running shoes (I always use them because they are more comfortable).

that's not really a logical way to look at it. it doesnt matter how heavy or light you are. you can fuck up your knees and ligaments regardless. they were made for your body. transferring small amounts of impulse into your knees in detrimental ways multiplied by thousands of steps accumulates damage quickly. it takes almost no force to fuck up a knee

running technique is not trivial. many people run inefficiently and put strain on their knees because of how they run. shoes can play a large role in this.

 

[snakeyes1022]

Depending on where in your knee you felt it (inside vs outside) it may be your shoes vs what your pronation is. It also may be since your fit you ran a bit to fast on a harder than ideal surface for your first run. Im a hefty (fat) runner have done 6 ish marathons over the last year or so. Until i got a legit fitting in a running store i always had knee pain on my inner knee and shin pain. After new shoes no pain except when i do my speed work and that's more in center of knee. I would start with going to a running store for fitting.

 

[Deleted member 584792]

I injured my knee 2 months ago (i wasn't running alot) my rehab was basically pushing weights my physiotherapist told me that basically to avoid injuries i had to work my legs more often i was training alot but not lifting weights enough and not working my legs at all

so the key to avoid those injuries is to work you leg muscles more often, stretching can help too i think

there is a cool guy =on youtube named The Kneesovertoesguy there is exercices for knee pain etc in his channel if you want

 

[Volador]

Hey sherbros. I have a question for you guys today.

I'm almost 34 and in pretty decent shape. I lift weights at home and bike a lot outside (about 4/5 hours at week)
A few months ago I decided to go for a run and did about about 8km (5 miles) and I was kind of spent after it.
Cardio wise I think I could have continued for a long time after but my joints (specially knees) were killing me. It took me about 2/3 days to fully recover.
I'm pretty light (about 135/140lbs) so it's not a matter of me putting a lot of weight on my joints and I was wearing brand new running shoes (I always use them because they are more comfortable).

I never had any serious injury but my body has some wear and tear after many years of kickboxing and muay thai. I can squat and do all kind of leg excercises without problems tho.

My question is.. Am I completely ruined for running or can I start running less and maybe my joints will get used to?

Kind of wanted to do a short thriatlon somewhere down the line (which would require to improve my swimming too when they open the pools again) but I think this might take me out of that.

I'm not a runner, so I can't say much about shoes or running technique, those may be a factor. But I have experienced something similar in terms of knee pain after going for random runs on concrete. Soft surfaces never bothered my knees though.

Before that 5 mile run, where you running often? If you weren't maybe it was just too much too soon. It's possible that your cardio from biking was already at a decent level, but your knees weren't adapted to the specific running stress and it was too sudden. Biking is pretty low impact compared to running. Maybe start with shorter easy pace runs and build up gradually. 2/3 days to recover is actually really fast and makes me believe that the problem was minor.

You're definitely not "ruined". I would recommend just building up more slowly and maybe starting your training with softer surfaces, and easier shorter runs, and going to harder surfaces and longer runs gradually in a planned way. I think you should be OK.

 

[Fahcough]

Mid 30s must be the trigger for knees to start screaming. Couple years older and they recently started becoming irritated very easy and much tighter when squatting down.
Never paid any attention to the shoe relation but all the responses are saying the same thing.

1st time having to buy joint support supplements.

 

[teepsandbarleywine]

8kms is a lot of kilometers for a first run. I would advise starting smaller until your body is more used to the stimulus, and then ramp up the distance/volume as you get more used to it. It may simply be a case of too much, too soon- start from an easy 4k run, and then build the distance every week or two, slowly slowly. Your body will suffer less wear and tear, and then you'll probably get a better idea of whether the actual running in and of itself is detrimental or not.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

Did you run when you were younger? Some people just can’t run without fucking themselves up. I got higher arches in my feet and even with measured orthotic inserts I get bad plantar fasciitis if I run more than once a week.

Used to run 5/6k twice at week about 7 years ago to improve my cardio for sports. Don't remember being such a problem.

running technique is not trivial. many people run inefficiently and put strain on their knees because of how they run. shoes can play a large role in this.

I should definetly look into technique.

Depending on where in your knee you felt it (inside vs outside) it may be your shoes vs what your pronation is. It also may be since your fit you ran a bit to fast on a harder than ideal surface for your first run. Im a hefty (fat) runner have done 6 ish marathons over the last year or so. Until i got a legit fitting in a running store i always had knee pain on my inner knee and shin pain. After new shoes no pain except when i do my speed work and that's more in center of knee. I would start with going to a running store for fitting.

I my shoes might not be well suited for me. I bought my old shoes (before these) in an Adidas store where they had me jogging on a threadmill with some stuff on my feet to see which kind of shoes I needed. I think I stil have those.. might be a little weary but I could give them a try.

I injured my knee 2 months ago (i wasn't running alot) my rehab was basically pushing weights my physiotherapist told me that basically to avoid injuries i had to work my legs more often i was training alot but not lifting weights enough and not working my legs at all

so the key to avoid those injuries is to work you leg muscles more often, stretching can help too i think

there is a cool guy =on youtube named The Kneesovertoesguy there is exercices for knee pain etc in his channel if you want

Thanks. I was doing legs twice at week but since I started biking I got a little bit lazy.

Before that 5 mile run, where you running often?

Nope.. I was not running at all. Like never. So that might be it.

8kms is a lot of kilometers for a first run. I would advise starting smaller until your body is more used to the stimulus, and then ramp up the distance/volume as you get more used to it. It may simply be a case of too much, too soon- start from an easy 4k run, and then build the distance every week or two, slowly slowly. Your body will suffer less wear and tear, and then you'll probably get a better idea of whether the actual running in and of itself is detrimental or not.

I think I'm doing 4 next time. I remember my knees being fine for that distance. Maybe when my legs gets fatigued my form becomes bad and I hurt myself.


Anyways.. thanks everybody for your reponses.

 

[Volador]

Nope.. I was not running at all. Like never. So that might be it.

Yeah, that's definitely what I would look into first and likely the biggest factor. It's like going into the gym after years off and maxing out, the body might panic a little and the probabilities of developing some pain are higher than if you slowly build up and allow yourself to adapt to the new stimulus. No reason to get too alarmed, I'd just take it slow.

 

[Aerosol]

Hey sherbros. I have a question for you guys today.

I'm almost 34 and in pretty decent shape. I lift weights at home and bike a lot outside (about 4/5 hours at week)
A few months ago I decided to go for a run and did about about 8km (5 miles) and I was kind of spent after it.
Cardio wise I think I could have continued for a long time after but my joints (specially knees) were killing me. It took me about 2/3 days to fully recover.
I'm pretty light (about 135/140lbs) so it's not a matter of me putting a lot of weight on my joints and I was wearing brand new running shoes (I always use them because they are more comfortable).

I never had any serious injury but my body has some wear and tear after many years of kickboxing and muay thai. I can squat and do all kind of leg excercises without problems tho.

My question is.. Am I completely ruined for running or can I start running less and maybe my joints will get used to?

Kind of wanted to do a short thriatlon somewhere down the line (which would require to improve my swimming too when they open the pools again) but I think this might take me out of that.

Dear TS:

1- Never run on cement
2- Buy the best running shoes you can afford
3- drink at least 3 liters of water every day (foking measure it)
4- stretch your cuadriceps every day ideally before going to bed (maintain the position where you feel the cuadriceps is tight but doesn’t hurt for 15 seconds, don’t bounce)
5- stop lifting weights with your knees, you will need them for hopefully another 50 years.

You have some amount of arthrosis (degeneration of the cartilage) and definitely arthritis (inflammation of the joint)
Cartilage doesn’t regenerate but you certainly can stop the degeneration AND keep running until the day you die IF you do the right things.
The right things are what I listed above. All 5 points are equally important.

Hope it helps
Cheers!

 

[Volador]

Dear TS:

1- Never run on cement
2- Buy the best running shoes you can afford
3- drink at least 3 liters of water every day (foking measure it)
4- stretch your cuadriceps every day ideally before going to bed (maintain the position where you feel the cuadriceps is tight but doesn’t hurt for 15 seconds, don’t bounce)
5- stop lifting weights with your knees, you will need them for hopefully another 50 years.

You have some amount of arthrosis (degeneration of the cartilage) and definitely arthritis (inflammation of the joint)
Cartilage doesn’t regenerate but you certainly can stop the degeneration AND keep running until the day you die IF you do the right things.
The right things are what I listed above. All 5 points are equally important.

Hope it helps
Cheers!

I don't think points 3-5 are too relevant or even true. Stop lifting weights? Lifting weights is not associated with the onset of osteoarthritis, where did you get that from? In fact, it has been found that weight lifters have significantly thicker cartilage as an adaptation to training.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24648385/

And you can't diagnose arthrosis based on some nonspecific knee pain that went away in 2-3 days. There's many sources of pain, and pain doesn't necessarily mean there's an injury or cartilage degeneration, think of, as an analogy, a headache. I don't think it's uncommon to experience some joint pain if you suddenly engage in a new physical activity that you weren't adapted to, it doesn't mean you have damaged joints. Sorry, but yeah, pretty bad advice, especially the last parts.

 

[Zankou]

Depending on where in your knee you felt it (inside vs outside) it may be your shoes vs what your pronation is. It also may be since your fit you ran a bit to fast on a harder than ideal surface for your first run. Im a hefty (fat) runner have done 6 ish marathons over the last year or so. Until i got a legit fitting in a running store i always had knee pain on my inner knee and shin pain. After new shoes no pain except when i do my speed work and that's more in center of knee. I would start with going to a running store for fitting.

How do you do so much long distance running for so long and still stay fat? Confused about that.

 

[Aerosol]

I don't think points 3-5 are too relevant or even true. Stop lifting weights? Lifting weights is not associated with the onset of osteoarthritis, where did you get that from? In fact, it has been found that weight lifters have significantly thicker cartilage as an adaptation to training.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24648385/

And you can't diagnose arthrosis based on some nonspecific knee pain that went away in 2-3 days. There's many sources of pain, and pain doesn't necessarily mean there's an injury or cartilage degeneration, think of, as an analogy, a headache. I don't think it's uncommon to experience some joint pain if you suddenly engage in a new physical activity that you weren't adapted to, it doesn't mean you have damaged joints. Sorry, but yeah, all around bad advice.

Arthrosis happens as you age unless you do the right things, hence I can assume he has some degree of arthrosis dumbass.

Lifting weights is bad for your knees above 35 yrs old
Where did I get that from?
It’s called 15 years of professional experience dumbass.

Hydration isn’t relevant to intrajoint sinovial liquid ?
Dumbass

Chronic shortening of the cuadriceps doesn’t up the subpatellar compression?
Dumbass

And I missed your great advice in your dumbass post. I’m sure you are only trying to help.

 

[Volador]

Arthrosis happens as you age unless you do the right things, hence I can assume he has some degree of arthrosis dumbass.

Lifting weights is bad for your knees above 35 yrs old
Where did I get that from?
It’s called 15 years of professional experience dumbass.

Hydration isn’t relevant to intrajoint sinovial liquid ?
Dumbass

Chronic shortening of the cuadriceps doesn’t up the subpatellar compression?
Dumbass

And I missed your great advice in your dumbass post. I’m sure you are only trying to help.

Lol at this ridiculous hissy fit dude, not sure why you got so pissed off at me saying it was bad advice, which it still is. I wish you put the same effort into providing some evidence instead of this silly shit.

The water bit was irrelevant and arbitrary, exactly 3 measured liters is an arbitrary and pointless thing to say. You can be hydrated and your knees might hurt anyway if you engage in a new activity all of a sudden.

I don’t care about your experience if you say things that aren’t true. How many 35yo with no injuries who developed or worsened OA due to resistance training have you seen, and how did you measure it? I assume none and that you didn’t.

Thankfully, it’s not like appealing to one’s own (imaginary) authority and not providing any evidence is a textbook fallacy. Oh wait, yes it is.

Resistance exercise is frequently prescribed to adults who already have OA. Much of the evidence out there is in favor of resistance training and lifting weights improving symptoms and preventing dysfunction not the opposite:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635671/#!po=24.1667

“Doing the right things” means exercising and that can include lifting weights, so yeah, still wrong and still bad advice.

OA can be diagnosed or likely if you have a history of persistent pain and stiffness (Which TS doesn’t have), previous injury (which TS doesn’t have) or symptoms combined with imaging (with TS doesn’t have), not a single instance of pain after a single bout of exercise from an otherwise healthy, uninjured, painless young person. That’s nonsensical advice, and you acting pissed off on a karate forum will not change that.

 

[Ian Coe]

Arthrosis happens as you age unless you do the right things, hence I can assume he has some degree of arthrosis dumbass.

Lifting weights is bad for your knees above 35 yrs old
Where did I get that from?
It’s called 15 years of professional experience dumbass.

Hydration isn’t relevant to intrajoint sinovial liquid ?
Dumbass

Chronic shortening of the cuadriceps doesn’t up the subpatellar compression?
Dumbass

And I missed your great advice in your dumbass post. I’m sure you are only trying to help.

You use the word 'dumbass' quite a lot.

What is your profession that warrants said professional experience if you don't mind me asking?
When you say he has arthritis, do you mean that in the general use of the word, namely joint pain or joint disease (which is talks about in his original post)?

 

[Poon Goon]

I'm over 35 and I just bought a bunch of stuff for my home gym. Is it even okay for me to lift the weights?

 

[ChickenBrother]

I can only speak for my own experience and won't presume to diagnose anyone. While I believe medical studies are relevant and important, as a long-time fitness devotee I also believe athletes know their own bodies better than anyone and due to individual differences, sometimes YMMV.

I'm 47 and have been running for 32 years + weight training and combat sports. Started in HS track + cross country, then lots of running and road marches in the military, then recreational races up to marathon distance. My PRs were 17:42 5K and 3:44 for my one and only marathon at age 28. I'm 5' 8.5" and have been 160-170 lbs most of my adult life.

IMO most of what @Aerosol says in his first post isn't controversial. Running on concrete delivers more impact to your joints, and good running shoes are critical if you want to avoid knee problems. If running on hard surfaces is unavoidable (I generally have to run on asphalt), good shoes are even more critical.

Don't cheap out on shoes and avoid the substandard fashion choices that are half the market. Best bet is heavy, cushioned "daily trainers." I've been a fan of Asics gel Nimbus and Kayano for years. Look at reviews, then go to a store and try them on. Reserve these only for training runs and not for casual wear. With regular use, you need a new pair of running shoes AT LEAST once/year. Dirt and dust gets into the outsole and hardens it over time - a 2-year old running shoe outsole will feel like rock compared to an identical new pair.

Staying well hydrated is key. 3 liters is arbitrary but most people are dehydrated to some extent. General rule if you're not pissing every hour and your piss isn't close to clear, you're probably dehydrated which will be suboptimal over the long-term. Water consumption should be on top of coffee and juice if any.

Stretching has benefits and shouldn't be any argument there.

"Lifting weights with knees" is ambiguous and I interpreted that as leg extensions on a machine. Anecdotal I know but I used to do those in my 20's and that was also the only period I experienced knee pain after runs. I've had no issues since switching to barbell squats and deads, and I'm convinced squatting ass to grass with clean form has improved my knee health.

TLDR: IMHO I recommend (as long as you have good, cushioned running shoes) TS try an easy 1-2 mile run next week and see how you feel. Even if you're in otherwise good shape, running stresses your knees and joints and your body needs to build up tolerance. Even as an experienced distance runner, I'm only going 2-3 miles if I haven't run in a few months. Going 5 miles off the bat I'm asking for muscle and joint pain.

 

[RemyR]

I'm over 35 and I just bought a bunch of stuff for my home gym. Is it even okay for me to lift the weights?

Probably not I’m 37 and one time I glanced at a squat rack and tore an ACL

 

[Ian Coe]

I can only speak for my own experience and won't presume to diagnose anyone. While I believe medical studies are relevant and important, as a long-time fitness devotee I also believe athletes know their own bodies better than anyone and due to individual differences, sometimes YMMV.

I'm 47 and have been running for 32 years + weight training and combat sports. Started in HS track + cross country, then lots of running and road marches in the military, then recreational races up to marathon distance. My PRs were 17:42 5K and 3:44 for my one and only marathon at age 28. I'm 5' 8.5" and have been 160-170 lbs most of my adult life.

IMO most of what @Aerosol says in his first post isn't controversial. Running on concrete delivers more impact to your joints, and good running shoes are critical if you want to avoid knee problems. If running on hard surfaces is unavoidable (I generally have to run on asphalt), good shoes are even more critical.

Don't cheap out on shoes and avoid the substandard fashion choices that are half the market. Best bet is heavy, cushioned "daily trainers." I've been a fan of Asics gel Nimbus and Kayano for years. Look at reviews, then go to a store and try them on. Reserve these only for training runs and not for casual wear. With regular use, you need a new pair of running shoes AT LEAST once/year. Dirt and dust gets into the outsole and hardens it over time - a 2-year old running shoe outsole will feel like rock compared to an identical new pair.

Staying well hydrated is key. 3 liters is arbitrary but most people are dehydrated to some extent. General rule if you're not pissing every hour and your piss isn't close to clear, you're probably dehydrated which will be suboptimal over the long-term. Water consumption should be on top of coffee and juice if any.

Stretching has benefits and shouldn't be any argument there.

"Lifting weights with knees" is ambiguous and I interpreted that as leg extensions on a machine. Anecdotal I know but I used to do those in my 20's and that was also the only period I experienced knee pain after runs. I've had no issues since switching to barbell squats and deads, and I'm convinced squatting ass to grass with clean form has improved my knee health.

TLDR: IMHO I recommend (as long as you have good, cushioned running shoes) TS try an easy 1-2 mile run next week and see how you feel. Even if you're in otherwise good shape, running stresses your knees and joints and your body needs to build up tolerance. Even as an experienced distance runner, I'm only going 2-3 miles if I haven't run in a few months. Going 5 miles off the bat I'm asking for muscle and joint pain.

I would agree 1 and 2 are no brainers. Although number 1 are 'life' dependant.
I would also contest that heavily cushioned runners are linked with number 1. I hate running in cushioned shoes as much as running on concrete. But one requires the other.
I had less lower leg injuries by doing the barefoot/zero drop thing (with obvious 6 month / 12 month build up).

Context and it will be in my training log; I ran my first and only marathon in 2018 with my wife.
I was ticking along at sub 8 min mile for 15 mile training runs.
Marathon time was crap though; 6 week pregnant wife and her lack of training will do that.

Barefoot style shoes btw but trails and 90% off road.
edit; 205lbs at time of that run at 35 years old.