Running and knee/joints pain

I can only speak for my own experience and won't presume to diagnose anyone. While I believe medical studies are relevant and important, as a long-time fitness devotee I also believe athletes know their own bodies better than anyone and due to individual differences, sometimes YMMV.

I'm 47 and have been running for 32 years + weight training and combat sports. Started in HS track + cross country, then lots of running and road marches in the military, then recreational races up to marathon distance. My PRs were 17:42 5K and 3:44 for my one and only marathon at age 28. I'm 5' 8.5" and have been 160-170 lbs most of my adult life.

IMO most of what @Aerosol says in his first post isn't controversial. Running on concrete delivers more impact to your joints, and good running shoes are critical if you want to avoid knee problems. If running on hard surfaces is unavoidable (I generally have to run on asphalt), good shoes are even more critical.

Don't cheap out on shoes and avoid the substandard fashion choices that are half the market. Best bet is heavy, cushioned "daily trainers." I've been a fan of Asics gel Nimbus and Kayano for years. Look at reviews, then go to a store and try them on. Reserve these only for training runs and not for casual wear. With regular use, you need a new pair of running shoes AT LEAST once/year. Dirt and dust gets into the outsole and hardens it over time - a 2-year old running shoe outsole will feel like rock compared to an identical new pair.

Staying well hydrated is key. 3 liters is arbitrary but most people are dehydrated to some extent. General rule if you're not pissing every hour and your piss isn't close to clear, you're probably dehydrated which will be suboptimal over the long-term. Water consumption should be on top of coffee and juice if any.

Stretching has benefits and shouldn't be any argument there.

"Lifting weights with knees" is ambiguous and I interpreted that as leg extensions on a machine. Anecdotal I know but I used to do those in my 20's and that was also the only period I experienced knee pain after runs. I've had no issues since switching to barbell squats and deads, and I'm convinced squatting ass to grass with clean form has improved my knee health.

TLDR: IMHO I recommend (as long as you have good, cushioned running shoes) TS try an easy 1-2 mile run next week and see how you feel. Even if you're in otherwise good shape, running stresses your knees and joints and your body needs to build up tolerance. Even as an experienced distance runner, I'm only going 2-3 miles if I haven't run in a few months. Going 5 miles off the bat I'm asking for muscle and joint pain.

Top shelf post sir. Much respect.

BTW I’m not trying to debate here, only care to help TS.
 
Lol at this ridiculous hissy fit dude, not sure why you got so pissed off at me saying it was bad advice, which it still is. I wish you put the same effort into providing some evidence instead of this silly shit.

The water bit was irrelevant and arbitrary, exactly 3 measured liters is an arbitrary and pointless thing to say. You can be hydrated and your knees might hurt anyway if you engage in a new activity all of a sudden.

I don’t care about your experience if you say things that aren’t true. How many 35yo with no injuries who developed or worsened OA due to resistance training have you seen, and how did you measure it? I assume none and that you didn’t.

Thankfully, it’s not like appealing to one’s own (imaginary) authority and not providing any evidence is a textbook fallacy. Oh wait, yes it is.

Resistance exercise is frequently prescribed to adults who already have OA. Much of the evidence out there is in favor of resistance training and lifting weights improving symptoms and preventing dysfunction not the opposite:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635671/#!po=24.1667

“Doing the right things” means exercising and that can include lifting weights, so yeah, still wrong and still bad advice.

OA can be diagnosed or likely if you have a history of persistent pain and stiffness (Which TS doesn’t have), previous injury (which TS doesn’t have) or symptoms combined with imaging (with TS doesn’t have), not a single instance of pain after a single bout of exercise from an otherwise healthy, uninjured, painless young person. That’s nonsensical advice, and you acting pissed off on a karate forum will not change that.

Ok kid
If you knew what the fuck you’re talking about you’d know that quoting random studies doesn’t mean shit.

Oh and btw you made the List!
Congrats!
I’ve been tracking your dumbass posts for quite some time and you’re about the 3rd person in 16 years that makes it.

Seeya
 
I would agree 1 and 2 are no brainers. Although number 1 are 'life' dependant.
I would also contest that heavily cushioned runners are linked with number 1. I hate running in cushioned shoes as much as running on concrete. But one requires the other.
I had less lower leg injuries by doing the barefoot/zero drop thing (with obvious 6 month / 12 month build up).

Context and it will be in my training log; I ran my first and only marathon in 2018 with my wife.
I was ticking along at sub 8 min mile for 15 mile training runs.
Marathon time was crap though; 6 week pregnant wife and her lack of training will do that.

Barefoot style shoes btw but trails and 90% off road.
edit; 205lbs at time of that run at 35 years old.

Agree. I was going to address barefoot running in my post above but already had a wall of text.

Cushioned running shoes are designed for paved surfaces and that's the default running mode for most people, striking ground with heels first. But if you run like that on concrete it will tear your feet apart. I noticed that in warm up jogs around the mat/ring/gym in Judo//Muay Thai/BJJ, I was instinctively running on the balls of my feet and when the barefoot running craze was on, I figured why the hell not.

When I was living in NYC I did probably 5 or 6 runs completely barefoot from my shitty 5th floor walk-up through 2 blocks of traffic to Central Park, and then around the reservoir trail for a 2-3 mile loop which was probably 50/50 concrete/packed dirt. First time I did it, no injuries but the tips of my middle two toes on both feet were bleeding from "gripping" the ground. So I wrapped the pad of those toes with cloth athletic tape and had no issues or injuries on successive barefoot runs. Running like that seemed to shift impact from knees to calves (because you're running on balls of feet) and I could see it as a viable substitute for cushioned shoe running if someone has knee pain.

But for me, it was a novelty and I went back to running with cushioned shoes. Running barefoot does feel more natural but I didn't want to risk running without foot protection and for me, wearing minimalist shoes defeats the point. Forefoot striking is also slower for me vs. heel striking and I can't get my HR as high. My anaerobic threshold is around 180 bpm and I can maintain that at will running with cushioned shoes. Barefoot, I struggled to get above 160 bpm because it's more of a jogging gait and harder to sprint it out. I'm sure form would improve over time but I wouldn't recommend that unless running with conventional shoes was untenable. Running is only one of many ways to train cardio and if it's causing injuries or pain, IMO best to move on to another activity.

Re. marathon, I hear you man. I did mine having only done training runs up to 6 miles and got cocky. Thought I could do sub 3:30 without breaking a sweat but hit the wall hard around 20 miles and the last 6 miles really fucking sucked. For most people I think if you're in race shape for a 5K, you can do 10 miles maybe half marathon without issue. But marathon race shape requires specific distance training and you have to be conditioned for bouncing up and down for 4+ hours.
 
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Ok kid
If you knew what the fuck you’re talking about you’d know that quoting random studies doesn’t mean shit.

Oh and btw you made the List!
Congrats!
I’ve been tracking your dumbass posts for quite some time and you’re about the 3rd person in 16 years that makes it.

Seeya

Lol wtf is wrong with this dude? Room temp IQ, that's for sure. Probably hurt his knees running in the wrong shoes....

5fc79900-ff1c-4a6d-9379-6f2180ec2169_1.6d4ae9881403f8e71be469898f9425c5.jpeg


Laces are probably a little too complicated for him.
 
If you went from no running to 8 km's then I'm not surprised your joints were sore for days after. When I stopped exercising for a year other than rehabbing a torn shoulder after a reconstruction at the age of 20 I felt the same after going for about a 6-8 kilometre walk (let alone run). I thought I'd injured myself walking (seriously). The pain eventually subsided and I ended up being fine but I would start without about a 1500-3000 metre run and build up from there, not jump into 8000 metres with no running beforehand.
 
are you a heel striker?

thats usually the problem, along with hard surfaces. find a track, trail or hardpacked ocean sand and learn to run forefoot.
 
"Lifting weights with knees" is a little ambiguous and I interpreted that as leg extensions on a machine. Anecdotal I know but I used to do those in my 20's and the only time I used to have knee pain after runs was when I did them. I've had no issues since switching to barbell squats and deads, and I'm actually convinced squatting ass to grass with clean form has improved my knee health.

To TS: based on what you posted, IMHO I'd recommend (as long as you have good, cushioned running shoes) trying again next week with a brief 1-2 mile run and see how you feel. Even if you're in otherwise good shape, running puts stress on your knees and joints and your body needs to build up tolerance. Even as an experienced distance runner, if I haven't run outside for a few months, I'm only going 2-3 miles to start. Going 5 miles off the bat I'm asking for muscle and joint pain.

To be honest, imo points 3-4 weren't very relevant (imo you are unlikely to avoid joint pain from running by stretching your quads and drinking X amount of water) but this is debatable and ultimately harmless and I don't care. Point 5 and what came after was imo pretty bad and potentially harmful advice, which is why I called it out. I guess I could've been more tactful lmao.

It became less ambiguous when he said:

Lifting weights is bad for your knees above 35 yrs old

Which is patently false and goes against a ton of research on the topic and is terrible advice since, if anything, smartly planned resistance training has been associated with improved symptoms and reduced injury risk (not talking about Ronnie Coleman bro-training). Telling people they shouldn't train with weights is bad advice, I think we agree on that. If someone makes such a bold claim, I'd like to see something to support it.

And I don't see how leg extensions would be particularly bad compared to any other exercise, provided you adapt to them and don't try excessive loads you're not used to or that cause pain. Maybe they don't work for some people, and that's fine, but there's people who can't low bar squat without shoulder pain, for example. To me this doesn't mean that "low bar squatting is bad for your shoulders".

The last paragraph he wrote and his general tone:

You have some amount of arthrosis (degeneration of the cartilage) and definitely arthritis (inflammation of the joint)
Cartilage doesn’t regenerate but you certainly can stop the degeneration AND keep running until the day you die IF you do the right things.
The right things are what I listed above.

Was excessively dramatic and implied TS should avoid lifting weights at all, because otherwise he will not "stop the degeneration", which is counterproductive, potentially harmful and also unfounded, and that's my main criticism, which I stand by.

I specifically said I had nothing against the shoes part or the hard surfaces part, so I pretty much agree with you on everything else.

Ok kid
I’ve been tracking your dumbass posts for quite some time

Bro, I honestly have no idea who the fuck you are {<jordan}
 
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Lol wtf is wrong with this dude? Room temp IQ, that's for sure. Probably hurt his knees running in the wrong shoes....

5fc79900-ff1c-4a6d-9379-6f2180ec2169_1.6d4ae9881403f8e71be469898f9425c5.jpeg


Laces are probably a little too complicated for him.

Ha ha very funny you clown you’re so funny haha
Kids....
Don’t worry I used to de as dumb as you but I grew out of it so there’s hope for you. Please dont worry.
 
Leg extensions can sometimes help with knee pain. If you have more of a jumper's knee issue, you might need to get a brace specifically for that. Good luck.
 
To be honest, imo points 3-4 weren't very relevant (imo you are unlikely to avoid joint pain from running by stretching your quads and drinking X amount of water) but this is debatable and ultimately harmless and I don't care. Point 5 and what came after was imo pretty bad and potentially harmful advice, which is why I called it out. I guess I could've been more tactful lmao.

It became less ambiguous when he said:

I think both of you guys were posting ITT with good intentions, at least initially. But if he's saying weightlifting of any kind is bad for your knees, I categorically disagree. I mean I've seen people lifting heavier weights than they should with garbage form and yeah, that'll catch up with you over time.

But I've seen tons of wacky shit in gyms and on tracks over the years, sometimes by me, that sometimes works. But it may not be for everyone and that's why I always caveat anything if it's based on my personal experience.

There are however some things pretty close to universal best practice and that includes things like staying well hydrated, stretching and wearing good cushioned shoes if you run on pavement (or otherwise run on trails/track or barefoot/minimalist shoes). I'd hope everyone can agree on that kind of stuff without turning into the "angles" guy in the grappling forum.
 
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Ha ha very funny you clown you’re so funny haha
Kids....
Don’t worry I used to de as dumb as you but I grew out of it so there’s hope for you. Please dont worry.

Your lack of care in typing or editing leads me to believe you are either a troll, or have no due diligence in your output.
Laziness for the little things speaks volumes about ones character.
 
Building up gradually is the way to go. It takes a while to get the structural integrity and tissue adaption to run long distances. Especially as you grow older. Also some controlled strength training with good form a few times a week might help.

Dear TS:

1- Never run on cement
2- Buy the best running shoes you can afford
3- drink at least 3 liters of water every day (foking measure it)
4- stretch your cuadriceps every day ideally before going to bed (maintain the position where you feel the cuadriceps is tight but doesn’t hurt for 15 seconds, don’t bounce)
5- stop lifting weights with your knees, you will need them for hopefully another 50 years.

You have some amount of arthrosis (degeneration of the cartilage) and definitely arthritis (inflammation of the joint)
Cartilage doesn’t regenerate but you certainly can stop the degeneration AND keep running until the day you die IF you do the right things.
The right things are what I listed above. All 5 points are equally important.

Hope it helps
Cheers!
Don't listen to this guy here. Although good running shoes can make a big difference and help absorb forces better if you're running on concrete.
 
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Hey sherbros. I have a question for you guys today.

I'm almost 34 and in pretty decent shape. I lift weights at home and bike a lot outside (about 4/5 hours at week)
A few months ago I decided to go for a run and did about about 8km (5 miles) and I was kind of spent after it.
Cardio wise I think I could have continued for a long time after but my joints (specially knees) were killing me. It took me about 2/3 days to fully recover.
I'm pretty light (about 135/140lbs) so it's not a matter of me putting a lot of weight on my joints and I was wearing brand new running shoes (I always use them because they are more comfortable).

I never had any serious injury but my body has some wear and tear after many years of kickboxing and muay thai. I can squat and do all kind of leg excercises without problems tho.

My question is.. Am I completely ruined for running or can I start running less and maybe my joints will get used to?

Kind of wanted to do a short thriatlon somewhere down the line (which would require to improve my swimming too when they open the pools again) but I think this might take me out of that.
Im a young fella my argentinian brotha, 21 years old and although i don't fell "pain" after this long runs i don't fell completely normal the day after. I usually fell shot but thats mostly cause we force our bodies to much during this runs, even the kenyans try to go light on their training cause the human body isn't build to run this much everyday, thats why i try to run only 3 times a week. I think if if you're walking normal and only fells kinda tired and shot thats normal
 
its kinda obvious to me that you shouldn't have started with a 5 mile run right off tops

and if you wanna get serious about running relax on the weights some and find a nice balance while you breaks yourself back in.
 
I would usually say don't do shit that hurts you. You can find cardio that doesn't mess you up. However evaluate your running/jogging form. I like to keep my feet low to the ground instead of bounce. Keeps pain away even with a bum knee. Like propel yourself forward not up and down much.
 
I worked sales at bicycle shops from 2008-2011 and sold bikes to a number of ex-runners with shot knees. They explained that cartilage in your knees is like tire tread and once you wear it out, you're done. While that's not totally true, your body can repair itself, it's ability to do so diminishes with age. Cycling is a non-impact alternative to feed the healthy endorphin addiction that many lifelong athletes have.

A good fitting will help with comfort, control, and longevity. I've seen countless people on expensive bicycles that fit poorly which is like buying an expensive pair of shoes in the wrong size.
 
its kinda obvious to me that you shouldn't have started with a 5 mile run right off tops

and if you wanna get serious about running relax on the weights some and find a nice balance while you breaks yourself back in.
I just did 5 miles yesterday and hadn't run since last year prior to that. I'm 39 years old and weigh 200lbs. I feel good other than calves needing a stretch this morning. Must be my anti inflammatory diet as I used to have debilitating arthritis.

That, or the fact that I used to run barefoot on the grass a fair amount which helped train me to run in a way that minimizes impact. Modern running shoes encourage us to strike the ground with our heels too hard and our knees suffer as a result of this impact.

If you don't have a safe grass or surface to run on, consider investing in barefoot running shoes to protect your feet from cuts.
 
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Was gonna start running as I have no cardio machines at home. Wouldn't be more than a mile or two a few days a week. Is the joint damage particular to distance runners?
 
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