Sayoc Kali - any opinions?

[Oldguy]

Can anyone with a FMA background give me your opinion on Sayoc Kali? Here is a link to some of their drills:

https://sayoc.com/9-part-fundamentals/video-basic-cross-body-parry/

I have an opportunity to train this locally. There is not much information out there on this art. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[listrahtes]

I know some Arnis and done some other knife ma. Never heard of that particular branch. Despite what I write just try it out and if you have a ma background you will be able to evaluate if its for you.

Going by the videos and especially the homepage I would not train there. Reminds me of WC money scheme with titles (keeper of knowledge..etc) and all the esoteric fluff but really its money money money.

from the hp:

The Training Group Leader also schedules seminars with the sponsoring Licensed Sayoc Instructor. The seminars are scheduled every 3-6 months. The fee for the seminar is $1000 per 5-hour training day (Domestic) or $1,500 per 5-hour training day (International); in addition to the fee are expenses that include food, travel and accommodations.

They require 2 seminars like that every 6 months from every training group. So basically you have to pay at least 2000$ on top / year as a coach and I bet privates are "encouraged" What I researched in short time they want 170-200$/hour privates. Absurd.

To me the focus on inside parry /grab / trapping is born out of hubris and looking fancy.Its fluff and a low percentage move. They make it work by ignoring how a real attack mostly plays out (well most attacks you dont even know there is a knife). In a knife fight your defense is your footwork and fast slashes (if the knife is sharp). Its basically fencing. Thats what you drill and thats what I know to be modern arnis (christino vasquez..etc) . If the other one overextends or breaks your guard you might get a hold or deflect. Wouldnt say its bad to learn them if the main part of training is what I wrote before. All the hand defenses shown against knifes will get you cut and in the range shown in the videos stabbed .

If you know fight quest series, look for the Arnis / Kali episode and than watch the knife fight they are doing (should be at 31min) and the knife training at 17min around. The way Jim trains in Manila and later fights with the Marine is imo a good example of modern arnis and how it plays out.

This is just a first impression but because of the red flags I wouldnt go there.

 

[Sanserif]

I know some Arnis and done some other knife ma. Never heard of that particular branch. Despite what I write just try it out and if you have a ma background you will be able to evaluate if its for you.

Going by the videos and especially the homepage I would not train there. Reminds me of WC money scheme with titles (keeper of knowledge..etc) and all the esoteric fluff but really its money money money.

from the hp:


They require 2 seminars like that every 6 months from every training group. So basically you have to pay at least 2000$ on top / year as a coach and I bet privates are "encouraged" What I researched in short time they want 170-200$/hour privates. Absurd.

To me the focus on inside parry /grab / trapping is born out of hubris and looking fancy.Its fluff and a low percentage move. They make it work by ignoring how a real attack mostly plays out (well most attacks you dont even know there is a knife). In a knife fight your defense is your footwork and fast slashes (if the knife is sharp). Its basically fencing. Thats what you drill and thats what I know to be modern arnis (christino vasquez..etc) . If the other one overextends or breaks your guard you might get a hold or deflect. Wouldnt say its bad to learn them if the main part of training is what I wrote before. All the hand defenses shown against knifes will get you cut and in the range shown in the videos stabbed .

If you know fight quest series, look for the Arnis / Kali episode and than watch the knife fight they are doing (should be at 31min) and the knife training at 17min around. The way Jim trains in Manila and later fights with the Marine is imo a good example of modern arnis and how it plays out.

This is just a first impression but because of the red flags I wouldnt go there.

Sadly particularly with FMA there are a lot of groups that are too money oriented (let's put it this way diplomatically). I have no experience of sayoc kali itself but their philosophy of "all blade all the time" will land u in jail or worse if u practice it to the ultimate extent due to the need for proportionality in self defense, as is their multiple knife carrying rigs. The knife is not a legally acceptable weapon to be carrying in premeditated way and to use a specialised rig means there is a lot of evidence on u that u r doing precisely that - for multiple knives to boot!

In terms of developing into muscle memory short range knife deflections and parrying and clearing, there are many FMAs that specialise in this range and they can be useful to develop those attributes - if they have a valid and tested trainung and drilling methodology for downloading those trained responses into the muscle memory under stress. I do not know if sayoc has this. However even so, the acid test of whether it works is free sparring with a non compliant opponent and not merely doing that methodology whatever it is - and it is a lot more difficult to pull off those responses in the short range for real than it is in training drills ...

 

[spiderguarda]

I know some Arnis and done some other knife ma. Never heard of that particular branch. Despite what I write just try it out and if you have a ma background you will be able to evaluate if its for you.

Going by the videos and especially the homepage I would not train there. Reminds me of WC money scheme with titles (keeper of knowledge..etc) and all the esoteric fluff but really its money money money.

from the hp:


They require 2 seminars like that every 6 months from every training group. So basically you have to pay at least 2000$ on top / year as a coach and I bet privates are "encouraged" What I researched in short time they want 170-200$/hour privates. Absurd.

To me the focus on inside parry /grab / trapping is born out of hubris and looking fancy.Its fluff and a low percentage move. They make it work by ignoring how a real attack mostly plays out (well most attacks you dont even know there is a knife). In a knife fight your defense is your footwork and fast slashes (if the knife is sharp). Its basically fencing. Thats what you drill and thats what I know to be modern arnis (christino vasquez..etc) . If the other one overextends or breaks your guard you might get a hold or deflect. Wouldnt say its bad to learn them if the main part of training is what I wrote before. All the hand defenses shown against knifes will get you cut and in the range shown in the videos stabbed .

If you know fight quest series, look for the Arnis / Kali episode and than watch the knife fight they are doing (should be at 31min) and the knife training at 17min around. The way Jim trains in Manila and later fights with the Marine is imo a good example of modern arnis and how it plays out.

This is just a first impression but because of the red flags I wouldnt go there.

What style do you think has the most realistic knife fighting style?

 

[Woldog]

What style do you think has the most realistic knife fighting style?

Whatever one where they teach you to just run away from the guy with the knife.

 

[Sanserif]

What style do you think has the most realistic knife fighting style?

If running away isn't an option, then amok! As taught by Tom Sotis is the best I have ever seen.

 

[listrahtes]

What style do you think has the most realistic knife fighting style?

"realistic" depends on the context. Army knife fighting is about ending a threat imidiatly . You succeed or you are dead (other threats, guns..etc) . Has to be simple as soldiers train 99% of their time with guns. Soldiers are NOT martial artists. This is about going in and sacrificing an injury for ending it. Quick kill drills. This is often taught in civilian environment (Krav Maga) but makes no sense at all as people dont have the mindset and if they do they end up in jail for a long time reacting like that. Remember you need to react appropriate to the threat how someone else sees it. For a soldier its the way to go. Would never recommend that for a civilian.

Regarding realism in a knife vs. knife mugging. Modern arnis is the most efficient (but I may not know about other styles that also are) . Its like with every ma. If they do simple effective drills and lots of sparring with pressure testing there is a higher probability you will execute that under stress. My girlfriend is from the philipines. Everyone there has a knife and there seems to be quite some pressure testing there for the ma (sadly).

The Arnis schools were I live are more about larping in exotic costumes with no sparring. It can be difficult or close to impossible finding a school that actually has skilled coaches. The name Arnis / Kali is no guarantee at all.

If there is no good Arnis school you fare much better doing fencing or boxing / Kickboxing. Fencing is close to knife fighting and all about sparring / competing and boxing gives you a jab you can utilize for a knife defense and the footwork. Just dont slip & roll a knife attack

 

[Dexter]

As a former fencer who dived in knife fighting for several years I can confirm @listrahtes words on footwork. The main difference is the stance - your rear hand in fencing is non-existent and you are very "bladed" with your lead hand towards opponent. And in knife fighting you're squared, 'cause you need both of your hands to work at once. Another difference is that you are aiming to the body in fencing (rules), and in knife fighting your first goal is to disable closest threat aka the opponent's hand with the knife.
I'd like to add that, realistically, knife fighting is a mixed discipline - you need to drill not only how to use knife properly, but also some kicking, grappling etc.stuff, and regulary spar full contact with at least wooden knives. I won't advertise using metal models because risk of injuries is insanely high in sparring. Even wooden knives hurt a lot .
How we did it:

 

[listrahtes]

@Dexter
again we agree (my russian twin?) but the video is imo a little problematic. They spar with the mentality as if they have two wodden sticks in their hands and not two sharp knives were every slash makes you bleed like a pig. Would never go for a kick ever (one does a jumping kick attack ) and their non knife hand is way too uncoordinated. Also the distancing is not really existent. The one is just leaping into the other. You get slashed to pieces doing that. It looks more like Karate with a knife . You keep your other hand behind your knife and only use that if its possible to deflect the attacker and protect yourself if he gets through your guard.

Also the knife slashes are not technical. They use the knife like an impact weapon and do sword strikes. You do much smaller movements. No need at all to do these big movements. The blade does the work without force. I wouldnt say these two are knowledgable in knife fighting (Sorry my opinion).

I cant find a good video on youtube and dont have any training partners right now so no way of doing a video.

 

[Dexter]

@Dexter
again we agree (my russian twin?) but the video is imo a little problematic. They spar with the mentality as if they have two wodden sticks in their hands and not two sharp knives were every slash makes you bleed like a pig. Would never go for a kick ever (one does a jumping kick attack ) and their non knife hand is way too uncoordinated. Also the distancing is not really existent. The one is just leaping into the other. You get slashed to pieces doing that. It looks more like Karate with a knife . You keep your other hand behind your knife and only use that if its possible to deflect the attacker and protect yourself if he gets through your guard.

Also the knife slashes are not technical. They use the knife like an impact weapon and do sword strikes. You do much smaller movements. No need at all to do these big movements. The blade does the work without force. I wouldnt say these two are knowledgable in knife fighting (Sorry my opinion).

I cant find a good video on youtube and dont have any training partners right now so no way of doing a video.

That was a competition so they did according to rules, so no disagreement here . I posted it more to emphasis the point that just the partner drills won't help you to achieve anything in knife fighting. You need to spar, and spar hard. It will be painful, you'd get cut, stabbed, bruised, etc. And for some reason, a lot of ppl view knife fighting as "you stab - I parry - do the disarming technique - end of the line". And in real sparring he stabs you, you somehow manage to fix his armed hand with both of yours, trying to drop the knive, and he's punching and kicking you at the same time, and you fall with him on the ground, and it ends in grappling . No pretty stuff.

 

[Sanserif]

"realistic" depends on the context. Army knife fighting is about ending a threat imidiatly . You succeed or you are dead (other threats, guns..etc) . Has to be simple as soldiers train 99% of their time with guns. Soldiers are NOT martial artists. This is about going in and sacrificing an injury for ending it. Quick kill drills. This is often taught in civilian environment (Krav Maga) but makes no sense at all as people dont have the mindset and if they do they end up in jail for a long time reacting like that. Remember you need to react appropriate to the threat how someone else sees it. For a soldier its the way to go. Would never recommend that for a civilian.

Regarding realism in a knife vs. knife mugging. Modern arnis is the most efficient (but I may not know about other styles that also are) . Its like with every ma. If they do simple effective drills and lots of sparring with pressure testing there is a higher probability you will execute that under stress. My girlfriend is from the philipines. Everyone there has a knife and there seems to be quite some pressure testing there for the ma (sadly).

The Arnis schools were I live are more about larping in exotic costumes with no sparring. It can be difficult or close to impossible finding a school that actually has skilled coaches. The name Arnis / Kali is no guarantee at all.

If there is no good Arnis school you fare much better doing fencing or boxing / Kickboxing. Fencing is close to knife fighting and all about sparring / competing and boxing gives you a jab you can utilize for a knife defense and the footwork. Just dont slip & roll a knife attack

I would not suggest military combatives to learn Knife Fighting because the priority when it comes to the infantry is the rifle and using it in conjunction with other infantry weapons in thatbcontext with other members of the platoon. Knife Fighting training is about as low in the list of priorities as you can get in the panoply of skills that an infantry soldier needs to learn because if you need to use your knife to defend yourself on the Battlefield you are mostly dead already. Hence the drills that would be taught would be very limited and more to inculcate fighting spirit. After all the militaries priority is not to ensure the survival of the soldier above all other considerations- which is the civilians priority - but it is to complete the mission. The life of the soldier is expendable if the mission objective is achieved - the survival of the civilian by contrast is the mission.

Having said that though, there are probabbly very few knife fighting experts with a lot of real knife fighting experience who are not either dead or in jail with long prison sentences. In the old days in the Philippines , death matches and life and death knife duels and assassination type attacks were apparently fairly common as to how the masters of old got their renown from - men like Illustrisimo and Bacon who are now household names among FMA students. However in the modern civilised world, it can be difficult to separate the hype from reality, the charlatans from the real experts, and to know the limits of even that expertise.

I would say that IMHO and from whatever my lack of aptitude has allowed to learn from all the worthy sources i have encountered, whatever the system, three qualities that stand out for maximum survivability in a knife fight according to my theoretical understanding as being important are attitude, realism and ranging. For attitude I mean the awareness in the defender's mind that a knife attack means that he is really trying to kill you or at least butcher you and u r not likely to make it back home alive or in one piece if u do not use lethal force in response. It involves the absolute determination that no matter how brutal it takes or how vicious the attack, u will be more so to put him in the ground or at least to take him with u. Because there are few things in life more horrifying than a knife attack. That no matter how much pain or injury u have to battle through u will get to the other side if it is at all up to u and u will not give up till u r dead - or more ideally till rhe attacker is dead!

Realism means to strip away all the flash and fluff and low percentage stuff that will fail u under the stress and adrenaline flood of the real thing. It means to conform ones training routines to the real world scenario as far as that is possible without undertaking more risk to life and limb than it is worthwhile to do given ones lifestyle and priorities.

Ranging means control of ones own safety zone vis a vis the knife of the opponent and your own weapon so that u can maximise your ability to hurt or disable or kill him and minimise his ability to do the same to u, to be able to enter and exit with as little risk to yourself and the most chance of reaching his critical zones, to be able to break off and escape if it is at all available without exposing yourself to too much of a risk.

 

[Sanserif]

Thank you to everyone for the incredibly useful comments!!!!!!

My reactions to some of the comments:

1. I did not see the requirement for private training and ridiculously expensive seminars. Thanks. That is a huge red flag.

2. My BJJ training makes me distrust any martial art that does not rely on sparring with an uncooperative partner to test the techniques.

3. The tough thing about knife fighting is that 0.000001% of the so-called experts have never actually done it. It isn't possible. It is like a bunch 12 year kids speculating on what sex is based on looking at their dad's playboy magazines.

4. On their videos, I saw a lot of hand trapping. My standup sparring experience is that this cannot be done in real life. You may get a chance to parry a limb. But, don't expect that you will be able to grab that same limb with your other hand and trap it. It will be gone.

5. In the end, all blade arts are "faith based" arts. You can't realistically drill them or realistically spar with them. This is unlike BJJ where you know 100% your techniques will incapacitated a resisting opponent.

You can actually train fairly realistically as long as u use common sense, use eye protection and not trade blows that in real life may get u killed. Nowadays there is no need to use aluminium trainers in free sparring- there are foam wrapped trainers with either plastic or wooden cores that allow hard but much safer hits that will sill hurt but usually won't injure.

 

[Oldguy]

Here is an update. I trained last night with the group. This group is solid. The instructor knows his art. The students are squared away. I have seen a lot in my 32 years of martial arts training. And, this group is the real deal.

I appreciate the above concerns and things to look out for. This Sayoc Kali group is legit.

 

[Sanserif]

Here is an update. I trained last night with the group. This group is solid. The instructor knows his art. The students are squared away. I have seen a lot in my 32 years of martial arts training. And, this group is the real deal.

I appreciate the above concerns and things to look out for. This Sayoc Kali group is legit.

Glad to hear that oldguy ... when u hv learned enough to get a more reliable grasp of what rhe art is, please come back and post here to share it with us.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

Glad to hear that oldguy ... when u hv learned enough to get a more reliable grasp of what rhe art is, please come back and post here to share it with us.

I second this @Oldguy please post videos and lets get a discussion going in this thread or another once you have spent some time learning the instructors methods.

 

[Oldguy]

It may be a long long time. I don't even know what I don't know right now.

Exploring this art makes me have infinitely more respect and a healthy fear of what a trained guy with a knife can do. I never really doubted that in the first place. But, I am even more of a believer now!

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

I do Amok and Lameco. I studied Sayoc for about 7-8 months. I am an instructor in another traditional FMA art also

 

[Sanserif]

I do Amok and Lameco. I studied Sayoc for about 7-8 months. I am an instructor in a traditional FMA art also

Welcome Mr mojo Lane & good to have someone with actual experience training sayoc and other fma and systems so that a comparison can be made... Is sayoc more of a practical system like amok! or is it like trad styles like lameco?