Opinion Should Capital be taxed like wages?

[panamaican]

WAT

that's not how it works. by default, (ie: cap gains vs "traders" filing as ordinary income) stocks are taxed by their realized gains (after sale), on the individual lots/shares.

and... you completely missed the point regarding small cap. the "price" is just an average of the bid and ask. the "price" of low volume stocks will fluctuate rapidly and often is not an accurate representation of the actual prices.

Lol, I can explain it a million times and it won't matter. You don't understand how the tax code works.

You're trying to tell me how the gains are taxed now, I'm talking about how they should be taxed. Repeating how it's done now completely misses the point of changing it. But you can't discuss the change I'm discussing because you don't understand the tax code. You don't know the difference between a tax basis and a book basis - you seem to think that they're the same thing. And so you remain stuck in "book basis" mode because you can't actually discuss the "tax basis" side of things.

This is also why you can't discuss unrealized gains. You're only familiar with realized gains and so discussing a subject in the context of unrealized gains leaves you without a response hence the default.

For your edification. Partnership partners frequently pay tax on unrealized gains (there is a method for handling it). Businesses often take tax deductions on unrealized losses. Your unfamiliarity with those areas of the tax environment doesn't mean that they've never been addressed.

Anyway - do you know what a "step up in basis" is? I'd asked before and you never answered.

 

[rob mafia]

Lol, I can explain it a million times and it won't matter. You don't understand how the tax code works.

You're trying to tell me how the gains are taxed now, I'm talking about how they should be taxed. Repeating how it's done now completely misses the point of changing it. But you can't discuss the change I'm discussing because you don't understand the tax code. You don't know the difference between a tax basis and a book basis - you seem to think that they're the same thing. And so you remain stuck in "book basis" mode because you can't actually discuss the "tax basis" side of things.

This is also why you can't discuss unrealized gains. You're only familiar with realized gains and so discussing a subject in the context of unrealized gains leaves you without a response hence the default.

For your edification. Partnership partners frequently pay tax on unrealized gains (there is a method for handling it). Businesses often take tax deductions on unrealized losses. Your unfamiliarity with those areas of the tax environment doesn't mean that they've never been addressed.

Anyway - do you know what a "step up in basis" is? I'd asked before and you never answered.

lolz @ bringing up businesses and pretending that i didn't know that gains (even unrealized) CAN BE taxed differently - AFTER I LITERALLY CITED AN EXAMPLE OF IT IN MY LAST POST. ie: "traders" and "as ordinary gains."

ffs, man.

 

[Holic]

Here is the total alpha and omega of pure, "natural" rights:

1. I have the right to do anything I so choose to you.

2. You have the right to defend yourself against anything I choose to do to you.

That's a badass philosophy to spout on a mixed martial arts board, but no human civilization has agreed with that ever.

 

[Denter]

It's an interesting idea, but he seems more angry about the 10 million dollar death tax exemption than the actual system of capital gains tax only applying after a realization event. Maybe he should start with the estate tax before messing with the capital gains system.

Also, because I didn't read the article, did Ron Wyden suggest that assets held in pretaxed retirement accounts (ie, Roth) would also be subject to this? I assume not, because he wants to get reelected.

 

[giusti825]

The rich are so entitled.

They tell the poor to work hard for money yet they want to tax money created by labor while not paying taxes on money they don't work for....

It's the plantations all over again....."we work hard running this plantation, that's why we deserve the proceeds....nevermind those slaves over there....theyre the lazy ones who deserve just enough to stayalive and make it back tomorrow.....

 

[panamaican]

lolz @ bringing up businesses and pretending that i didn't know that gains (even unrealized) CAN BE taxed differently - AFTER I LITERALLY CITED AN EXAMPLE OF IT IN MY LAST POST. ie: "traders" and "as ordinary gains."

ffs, man.

I'm going to focus on establishing a baseline of knowledge - do you know what a step up in basis is?

 

[Danger Dave]

based on the age of the billionaires in this country i vote for a 100% death tax that goes to the people. One of the younger ones, the richest man on Earth Jeff Bezos, if he gave his money to every man woman child toddler in America that would be a $400-500 per person and would truly make America great again.

 

[panamaican]

It's an interesting idea, but he seems more angry about the 10 million dollar death tax exemption than the actual system of capital gains tax only applying after a realization event. Maybe he should start with the estate tax before messing with the capital gains system.

Also, because I didn't read the article, did Ron Wyden suggest that assets held in pretaxed retirement accounts (ie, Roth) would also be subject to this? I assume not, because he wants to get reelected.

IF you properly tax these assets during life then you don't need to spend as much time on the estate tax. The point of the estate tax is to attempt to capture the gains that were accrued and went untaxed because they were never realized. Of course since smart people dump the assets into trust and other asset transference vehicles when they're low value, they pass untaxed to the next generation and the government's estate tax catchall ends up being worth far less than expected.

 

[Gandhi]

Passive capital gains should be taxed at higher rates and in a progressive way similar to wages.

The basis adjustment for assets transferred though the estate are total bullshit and should be stopped immediately.

I wouldn’t mind seeing exceptions made for owners who are active in managing their businesses. I’m referring to the folks who put in their life savings, take a huge risk and work 80 hours a week to make it work.

I wouldn’t

The guy who has his own business is easily able to move all income into capital gains with the wave of a hand, it’s not taxation of savings, it’s work and should be taxed like work.

What do you think of the accrued gains concept?

I think it’s insane. Unrealized gains based on valuations based on marginal transactions are not meaningful. Some stock trading at x price has no meaning for someone who has 80% of shares on a thinly traded stock, for example.

I think the best way to stop deferrals of taxation is harmonize tax rates. Look at the average top marginal tax rate of the investor class and set the corporate rate at that level. Tax capital gains, dividends, at the same rate as personal income tax rates.

 

[Gandhi]

I always thought you had thicker skin. You're usually the most even keeled amongst the sherdog left crowd

Close but no

 

[Gandhi]

To be fair to the last part..... if someone grows like corn that not only feeds the country but byproducts are used to make ethanol and shit so if they start failing the country could potentially suffer

By producing less corn syrup and ethanol- you got to be kidding

 

[Gandhi]

"well established"

lolz @ the "well educated" person having to ask me for financial recommendations after mentioning a... mutual fund.

A low cost index based mutual fund is an excellent investment vehicle. He is asking not asking for advice, he is asking you to support your position instead of talking shit.

 

[Gandhi]

A gain is an increase in the value of an asset. It's a gain whether it's realized or not. Losses on assets are deducted. What part of this is new to you?

When I say "vagaries of the market" it means the changing nature of the market, sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down. When you're up -you're taxed. when you're down you take the loss. Your tax basis adjusts accordingly. "Vagaries of the market" is an idiom that's been around for years. It just means that the markets (stocks in general) move up and down, I didn't know you had never heard it.

So, again - do you understand what "basis" is? I'm asking because we adjust the tax basis in various assets in the current tax code even when the asset hasn't been sold (depreciation and stepped up basis at death being the most obvious), we already know how to do this. Shit, Sub-Chapter K of the tax code goes into this in length, many partnerships do this math annually.

When you say I didn't say what it's supposed to be based on - that's "basis". It's a foundation level tax concept. I assumed, erroneously, that anyone commenting on the step up in basis aspect and how it relates to gains, would know what "basis" means.

For example - you understand the phrase "step up in basis" and what it means within the tax code?

Yeah but basis is a lot different than valuation.

Basis for tax purposes results from tax income being earned, distributed, depreciated. Step ups can happen in then tax code but it does involve subjective valuations on unrealized gains.

I still contend that subjective valuation of subjective future earnings don’t need taxation. We solve much of the problem by ensuring all income earned gets taxed at the same rate. In reality we could use the average top marginal rate for investors at the corporate level and tax all personal income sources the same.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

kinda/sorta. more like "bailing out" with "tax payer money" that was basically reimbursed via tariffs.




or option 3 - go to neither.

and just sayin' - but the farm subsidies/etc didn't cost ~$32 trillian or whatever the cost was of medicare for all.

Medicare For All is going to save us money. We're already spending MORE on healthcare than any other country on Earth and our costs are going to go up regardless. M4A will save us trillions compared to if we maintain the status quo. Just how much depends on who's analyzing the data. Even the right wing libertarian Mercatus Center projects M4A to save trillions.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-plan-cost-save-money-2018-7

A much more cited and academically accredited study by University of Massachusetts Amherst researchers projects even larger savings.

https://www.peri.umass.edu/publication/item/1127-economic-analysis-of-medicare-for-all

But of course you're not going to accept these peer-reviewed studies because it doesn't conform to your confirmation bias. Sad!

 

[rob mafia]

I'm going to focus on establishing a baseline of knowledge - do you know what a step up in basis is?

*facepalm*

evade nearly everything and then pretend that i'm the one that's made mistakes and needs teaching? a+

Medicare For All is going to save us money. We're already spending MORE on healthcare than any other country on Earth and our costs are going to go up regardless. M4A will save us trillions compared to if we maintain the status quo. Just how much depends on who's analyzing the data. Even the right wing libertarian Mercatus Center projects M4A to save trillions.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-plan-cost-save-money-2018-7

A much more cited and academically accredited study by University of Massachusetts Amherst researchers projects even larger savings.

https://www.peri.umass.edu/publication/item/1127-economic-analysis-of-medicare-for-all

But of course you're not going to accept these peer-reviewed studies because it doesn't conform to your confirmation bias. Sad!

wtf are you talking about? btw, i'm actually ok with single-payer, genius. but the proposed m4a plans are silly. btw, we spend "MORE" on healthcare because insurance/red tape make up nearly half of all healthcare costs - despite having nothing to do with healthcare.

 

[rob mafia]

A low cost index based mutual fund is an excellent investment vehicle. He is asking not asking for advice, he is asking you to support your position instead of talking shit.

"excellent"

it was probably worse than someone just holding SPY.

 

[Gregolian]

By producing less corn syrup and ethanol- you got to be kidding

Didn’t say it was a good argument

 

[djacobox372]

Every tax should be progressive, or no taxes should be progressive. Anything else is hypocritical.

 

[ultramanhyata]

That's a badass philosophy to spout on a mixed martial arts board, but no human civilization has agreed with that ever.

That's right... No civilization has agreed. Because it's not until mankind embraced civilization, the rule of law and the enforcement of law that we, as human beings, actually got to experience human rights.

 

[Holic]

That's right... No civilization has agreed. Because it's not until mankind embraced civilization, the rule of law and the enforcement of law that we, as human beings, actually got to experience human rights.

So before there was a government

Nobody ever gave their opinion.