Should I Give Up on Takedowns, and Pull Guard?

[sb413197]

I’m a 41 year old physician who has been training about 9 years pretty consistently. I have long been better at top game than guard - I am fairly stocky and prefer a more incremental game. Most of my training has been starting on the knees with minimal experience in full resistance sparring in takedowns. I have always favored safety when training - and have built my game around that in part - I felt like longevity was key and I enjoy BJJ and want to do it very long term. I have a pressure style and don’t do well in wild fast-reaction positions.

A number of months ago, my gym started sparring from standing. I really enjoyed this - I always wanted to get good at takedowns, not only because it fits with my top heavy style but it has real self defense value and was a new challenge. I quickly found, as expected, that you have to spar hard to improve - and I feel like I made a lot of progress over the months, getting increasingly comfortable with clinch/trip and single leg takedowns, and hitting them regularly in sparring.

However, I had a lot of hard falls - messing up on the ground might get you swept/subbed/passed, but messing up when getting thrown and not falling correctly means you fall on your face. Thinking back I had a lot of near-catastrophies where I landed on my head and could have gotten a spinal injury, or on my shoulder etc.

Last week, I “zoned out” and did something REALLY stupid while falling reflexively (posted with one hand), and suffered a grousome elbow dislocation in training. Completely a boneheaded error...and yet thinking back it could have easily happened earlier any number of times...maybe even something worse.

Soooo...I’m faced with a dilemma when I finally get back to training, probably months from now. On one hand, I really love standing takedown sparring and think it has tremendous value. On the other, I’m not sure I can do it safely...and other than not training my injury impacts my work and even my ability to get dressed at the moment.

What should I do? The grappler I admire most, Bernardo Faria, was a guard puller. Maybe I should be too....it would improve my guard work. But, maybe there is a way to do stand up safely? (Always be ready to fall and focus more on that? Not sure)

Thoughts? Thanks for reading.

 

[efficientjudo]

How much time have you spent learning takedowns? I don't see the point in starting from standing and sparring takedowns if the time hasn't been dedicated to actually teaching them. Its a mistake my previous BJJ club used make, assuming just because a guy has his purple belt, hes capable of doing takedowns safely.

There is a higher chance of accidental catastrophic injuries in takedowns than ground work, and so its even more important that both parties actually have some understanding of the game - which isn't always the case at some clubs.

If you do want to learn takedowns safely, you should try and find an environment that makes that possible, be it find a wrestling / judo club or working with someone competent at your club during open mats to drill some moves and do some light sparring.

 

[cheachea]

Sometimes I wonder if it's better to drill takedowns solo to actually get good and decrease chances of injury :

 

[efficientjudo]

Sometimes I wonder if it's better to drill takedowns solo to actually get good and decrease chances of injury :

I think the best way to decrease chances of injury is to get thrown regularly by people that know how to throw you safely - its like anything, you want to start of small and controlled, and gradually become exposed to more risk as you become accustomed to the nature of the situation.

 

[shunyata]

How much time have you spent learning takedowns? I don't see the point in starting from standing and sparring takedowns if the time hasn't been dedicated to actually teaching them. Its a mistake my previous BJJ club used make, assuming just because a guy has his purple belt, hes capable of doing takedowns safely.

There is a higher chance of accidental catastrophic injuries in takedowns than ground work, and so its even more important that both parties actually have some understanding of the game - which isn't always the case at some clubs.

If you do want to learn takedowns safely, you should try and find an environment that makes that possible, be it find a wrestling / judo club or working with someone competent at your club during open mats to drill some moves and do some light sparring.

To clarify and build on this, OP what you're describing is that you haven't had enough practice and training FALLING CORRECTLY.

So you need not only practice with takedowns, but practice with ukemi.

Basically, you need to crosstrain Judo.

 

[Kforcer]

Well,

To clarify and build on this, OP what you're describing is that you haven't had enough practice and training FALLING CORRECTLY.

So you need not only practice with takedowns, but practice with ukemi.

Basically, you need to crosstrain Judo.

Or at least perhaps put a focus on break-fall training.

 

[Zankou]

I think the best way to decrease chances of injury is to get thrown regularly by people that know how to throw you safely - its like anything, you want to start of small and controlled, and gradually become exposed to more risk as you become accustomed to the nature of the situation.

There is an immense amount of truth to this.

Just adding takedowns to normal bjj practice will consistently generate dangerous crappling.

Much better to train them in a focused context that is not half-assing the training.

 

[CFGroup]

Ukemi, Ukemi UKEMI!

The single most important skill Martail Arts will ever teach you!

When all is said and done in old age, knowing how to fall will be the thing you'll need!

Spoken from a guy who has always loved to sour like an Eagle Nage Waza more than roll around like a rat Ne Waza!

 

[RJ Green]

if you don't hit the mat, the mat hits you

heal up buddy

 

[Blake_UK]

Learn specifically how to fall. That probably entails either cross training in Judo or maybe going back to a beginners class at your gym.

Coming to BJJ from a non-grappling background I was very surprised at how little we practiced breakfalling. It was other members who helped me out and frankly I was lucky not to injure my elbows in the same way you unfortunately did.

As for just pulling guard - I get what you are saying but frankly I find it ridiculous when anyone does that. Makes me want to just boot them in the head.

 

[kjg1672]

Hats off to you TS for training takedowns at 41 (not that 41 is terribly old or anything). I honestly think that many skilled martial artists don't know how to fall properly. I see fighters posting with one arm pretty often in MMA and wrestling. Experienced judo players may be only ones who really know how to fall correctly. We do breakfalls as part of the warmups for every class at my BJJ school, but it's done pretty half-assed. If I got thrown like you did, I can't say with much confidence that I would fall properly, either.

 

[cheachea]

To clarify and build on this, OP what you're describing is that you haven't had enough practice and training FALLING CORRECTLY.

So you need not only practice with takedowns, but practice with ukemi.

Basically, you need to crosstrain Judo.

Good comment.

Every bjj gym should have at least one day a week dedicated to just training judo and break falls in my opinion.

 

[cheachea]

I was watching a Roy Dean bjj DVD and he was talking about how all he did for the first 6 weeks of his training in judo was break falls.

 

[MrFriendly]

I’m a 41 year old physician who has been training about 9 years pretty consistently. I have long been better at top game than guard - I am fairly stocky and prefer a more incremental game. Most of my training has been starting on the knees with minimal experience in full resistance sparring in takedowns. I have always favored safety when training - and have built my game around that in part - I felt like longevity was key and I enjoy BJJ and want to do it very long term. I have a pressure style and don’t do well in wild fast-reaction positions.

A number of months ago, my gym started sparring from standing. I really enjoyed this - I always wanted to get good at takedowns, not only because it fits with my top heavy style but it has real self defense value and was a new challenge. I quickly found, as expected, that you have to spar hard to improve - and I feel like I made a lot of progress over the months, getting increasingly comfortable with clinch/trip and single leg takedowns, and hitting them regularly in sparring.

However, I had a lot of hard falls - messing up on the ground might get you swept/subbed/passed, but messing up when getting thrown and not falling correctly means you fall on your face. Thinking back I had a lot of near-catastrophies where I landed on my head and could have gotten a spinal injury, or on my shoulder etc.

Last week, I “zoned out” and did something REALLY stupid while falling reflexively (posted with one hand), and suffered a grousome elbow dislocation in training. Completely a boneheaded error...and yet thinking back it could have easily happened earlier any number of times...maybe even something worse.

Soooo...I’m faced with a dilemma when I finally get back to training, probably months from now. On one hand, I really love standing takedown sparring and think it has tremendous value. On the other, I’m not sure I can do it safely...and other than not training my injury impacts my work and even my ability to get dressed at the moment.

What should I do? The grappler I admire most, Bernardo Faria, was a guard puller. Maybe I should be too....it would improve my guard work. But, maybe there is a way to do stand up safely? (Always be ready to fall and focus more on that? Not sure)

Thoughts? Thanks for reading.

I get you , but completely quitting on them seems shortsighted at best...train them but don't rely on them , understanding what your opponent is setting up/trying to do and should open up counter wrestling opportunities (spladles, banana splits, half ass shots->sitouts to backtakes ,hell simple sprawl-crossface) i cant imagine simply x-ing out such a significant part of the game.


That's ^^^ a guard pullers 2cents so take it with a grain of salt

 

[mataleaos]

Sorry you're going through this.

You could do what I did, which is sort of blend the two. You could work on seated wrestling after pulling guards like half and butterfly.

I mean a good half guard or even deep half guard is basically coming up on single legs. Lachlan Giles and Lucas Leite have wrestling heavy half guard styles, and Jeff Glover's deep half system is almost entirely based on using the single leg. A lot of the butterfly game is seated wrestling too. Coming up for knee taps, Russian ties, arm dragging to the back or to sweep, doing snapdowns for front headlocks and go-behinds, etc.

I think you could pull guard and still work on wrestling style sweeps and reversals.

Another thing you could do is defensive wrestling perhaps? My stand up game consists of a lot of counter-wrestling. Think Vagner Rocha, Edwin Najmi, or Craig Jones. They do a lot of things like let people get in on singles and then using (respectively) kimura grips, darce & guillotine grips, and seatbelt grips, to bring the opponent to the floor on their terms. Firas Zahabi and some of the DDS guys also do this style and they counter the takedown attempts with sliding under for leg entanglements.

Some people hate the idea of playing any kind of reactive game, but I've been doing this since 2017 and it's been much easier on my body than doggedly fighting offensively for my own takedowns. There's definitely a bummer aspect when it doesn't work and you get taken down with nothing to show for it, but it's also fun when someone thinks they have the advantage and then suddenly they're having to worry about getting submitted or having their back taken as they're now going to the floor on your terms.

 

[nefti]

There is a reason why older judokas start doing more groundwork. Breakfalls mitigate impact, it does not completely negate the fact that you are getting slammed.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I’m a 41 year old physician who has been training about 9 years pretty consistently. I have long been better at top game than guard - I am fairly stocky and prefer a more incremental game. Most of my training has been starting on the knees with minimal experience in full resistance sparring in takedowns. I have always favored safety when training - and have built my game around that in part - I felt like longevity was key and I enjoy BJJ and want to do it very long term. I have a pressure style and don’t do well in wild fast-reaction positions.

A number of months ago, my gym started sparring from standing. I really enjoyed this - I always wanted to get good at takedowns, not only because it fits with my top heavy style but it has real self defense value and was a new challenge. I quickly found, as expected, that you have to spar hard to improve - and I feel like I made a lot of progress over the months, getting increasingly comfortable with clinch/trip and single leg takedowns, and hitting them regularly in sparring.

However, I had a lot of hard falls - messing up on the ground might get you swept/subbed/passed, but messing up when getting thrown and not falling correctly means you fall on your face. Thinking back I had a lot of near-catastrophies where I landed on my head and could have gotten a spinal injury, or on my shoulder etc.

Last week, I “zoned out” and did something REALLY stupid while falling reflexively (posted with one hand), and suffered a grousome elbow dislocation in training. Completely a boneheaded error...and yet thinking back it could have easily happened earlier any number of times...maybe even something worse.

Soooo...I’m faced with a dilemma when I finally get back to training, probably months from now. On one hand, I really love standing takedown sparring and think it has tremendous value. On the other, I’m not sure I can do it safely...and other than not training my injury impacts my work and even my ability to get dressed at the moment.

What should I do? The grappler I admire most, Bernardo Faria, was a guard puller. Maybe I should be too....it would improve my guard work. But, maybe there is a way to do stand up safely? (Always be ready to fall and focus more on that? Not sure)

Thoughts? Thanks for reading.

So similar boat, I'm a 36 year old physician who has been training 15 yrs. Several years ago I got back into competing and decided to make top/passing and takedowns a more significant part of my game (had been a guard pulling bottom player for most of my BJJ life). I have herniated discs in my cervical and lumbar spine, and I always even these days get worried that I am one hard fall or sprawl away from extra pain on top of what I normally feel. You probably know this already but there are strategies to minimizing injury, many of which are common sense - e.g. don't trade takedowns with someone 100 lb heavier than you, avoid those folks who try to drive you to the Earth's core with their takedowns, or those that try to launch you into the stratosphere, maybe just do takedowns on 1-2 rolls and pull guard the rest, maybe on 1-2 rolls just do high intensity takedown setups (without full takedown, switch off 3 reps with your partner). Your situation sounds like it could have been less the takedowns and more just a rare mistake, could have easily been getting swept while standing in your partner's X-guard that lead to an inadvertent post and subsequent dislocation. I think another consideration should be what type of physician you are - if you are a psychiatrist, pathologist, radiologist, etc, you can probably take a certain amount of damage and not be too impaired the next day with your patients. On the other hand if you are a surgeon or an obstetrician, might have an effect on your practice.

 

[Evenflow80]

Take downs are IMO the hardest thing to learn in grappling , at least for me.

I'm not afraid to get thrown at all or anything, I just suck at single,/doubles etc .

 

[lechien]

Judo is brutal.
It does not matter how much breakfall you practice.
Injuries always happen during tachi waza, even the black belts.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Judo is brutal.

But BJJ standup can, and should be, a lot gentler. A lot of the danger and effort in Judo/freestyle are about getting full rotation to force people onto their back. In BJJ you can just bump them to their knees and threaten the back-take rather than trying to maximise impact.