So now that they have been retired a good while: thoughts on Vitali and Wlad as fighters?

[cottagecheesefan]

You're underestimating Frazier... I'm not saying who would win, and your argument in regards to the size difference is legit, plus Joe was very vulnerable due to his highly offensive style and could be hurt in the early going by boxers with a hard enough punch.

But the Frazier that beat Ali was a savage.
I think he outguns 1989-1991 Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe... And Lennox? Well, he had his hands full with Mercer.

1971 Frazier vs 1981 Holmes is a toss up.

Btw: Vitalis record being better than Joe's is arguable. Joe's win over Ali is that much worth more than everythings Vitali has done. He had his shot against a past-prime Lewis and failed.

Even Mercer has a couple inches on Fraizer tho. Fraizer vs Tyson would be epic tho. I would pick Fraizer... tho I think Tyson would be rated higher based on accomplishments.

And I don't like the "1 win is better than anything he has done" argument, because a lot of sport is consistency, in terms of rating the best. So someone who has never been knocked down in pro boxing, has the highest KO% of champions, with 11 defenses is a bit better than "he beat Ali once in an extremely close fight". He also lost twice to Ali.

Lewis would not rematch and retired. But his loss was also an extremely close fight and due to a cut, rather than KO/decision. Lewis was also KOed brutally, was Vitali?

I mean, Ali, in his prime, lost to Fraizer. Does that knock him down a few notches, because he lost an extremely close fight to someone he later beat twice? Fraizer also lost to decision and then TKO. is he discredited now for losing to Ali? Vitali was doing just as good vs Lewis as Fraizer was vs Ali in their third fight until it was stopped. So now do we discredit Joe?

Does Ken Norton rank above Vitali and Wlad since he beat Ali once?

 

[cottagecheesefan]

He was in a tougher era though.
Different circumstances make it difficult to compare boxers from different eras.

Holyfield also had merely 7 title defenses, because there were a Bowe and a Lewis around who wouldn't allow him to hold on to the titles longer.

How do you feel about Holyfield's loss to Toney?

Does it not count because he was over the hill, only fighting for child support money? Or is Toney now a top HW contender?

Reminds me of Louis losing to Marciano after he already retired and was hit by the IRS.

So either Marciano's win vs Louis should be put into context and discredited some, or Toney is a top HWs for beating Holyfield. Or am I wrong?

 

[Someone88]

Yes Vitali and Wladimir were great fighters, they are legends. Head to head is speculation ( Klitschkos do great here too) in terms of accomplishments Wladimir is in the top 10 at least.

 

[defjaam]

Even Mercer has a couple inches on Fraizer tho. Fraizer vs Tyson would be epic tho. I would pick Fraizer... tho I think Tyson would be rated higher based on accomplishments.

And I don't like the "1 win is better than anything he has done" argument, because a lot of sport is consistency, in terms of rating the best. So someone who has never been knocked down in pro boxing, has the highest KO% of champions, with 11 defenses is a bit better than "he beat Ali once in an extremely close fight". He also lost twice to Ali.

Lewis would not rematch and retired. But his loss was also an extremely close fight and due to a cut, rather than KO/decision. Lewis was also KOed brutally, was Vitali?

I mean, Ali, in his prime, lost to Fraizer. Does that knock him down a few notches, because he lost an extremely close fight to someone he later beat twice? Fraizer also lost to decision and then TKO. is he discredited now for losing to Ali? Vitali was doing just as good vs Lewis as Fraizer was vs Ali in their third fight until it was stopped. So now do we discredit Joe?

Does Ken Norton rank above Vitali and Wlad since he beat Ali once?

I didn't say who ranks above who, I merely said that Vitalis record being better than Joe's is arguable. When you take a closer look, Vitali doesn't have that great of a resume... It's comparable to Joe's, only difference is that win over Ali.
There were two career defining fights for Vitali that were there - in one he got stopped inside of 6 rounds, and the other couldn't happen because it would have been against his brother.

 

[Absolut]

 

[k1ngjester]

Thats a fair point

Although i could counter that Wlad has four losses, 3 of which are borderline unforgivable and his signature win is either Samuel peter or David haye which aren’t exactly all time wins.

Wlad has that shocking KO of Pulev, that alone makes him top 5.