Standup Style for LEO/Corrections

[Safton]

Hey everyone. First post in this sub.

With my schooling done and old jobs behind me, I'm finally pursuing my dream of a career in law enforcement this year. I'll be applying to work as either a Correctional Officer for the state prison system or Detention Officer for the local jail and later on I hope to branch out into community LE.

I've spoken to more than a few cops (current and former) in my time and a couple of them were martial arts practitioners who readily advocated the usefulness of knowing how to handle yourself on the job without use of one's tools, to say nothing of the videos floating around on YouTube of officer-involved brawls and the like.

Right now my primary focus is slimming my fat ass down and getting back into BJJ on a regular basis. However, in the future I absolutely would like to expand my horizons. A local gym offers classes in MMA as well as independent classes in Boxing and Muay Thai. I plan to continue BJJ and I'd like to at least get a taste of the MMA classes.

But I'm torn when it comes to the Boxing/Muay Thai. I'd be perfectly happy with either and scheduling conflicts may end up playing as much a role as anything, but all the same I wouldn't mind hearing your opinions on which style would be better in my context:

• I'll be training for fitness, recreation, and self-defense. I have no plans to compete in boxing or kickboxing.
  
• I love boxing and the idea of developing my hands. I think the defensive skills alone would be handy for on-the-job use.
  
• My interest in Muay Thai is more selective, for lack of a better term. I really don't care for learning high kicks and the like, partly because my flexibility and balance are both frankly shit. However, low kicks and clinch work interest me immensely and at a glance at least would seem to complement my grappling?

I'm open to suggestions, anecdotes, whatever you guys have. I don't doubt most responses will be "try both and see which you like"... with good reason and this is absolutely something I plan to do.

 

[Icanseeu]

For a cop boxing and judo

 

[Safton]

For a cop boxing and judo

Man, I'd love to train Judo, but there are no schools in my immediate area. Conversely, I have two high-quality BJJ schools practically down the road from me: one solely BJJ, the other is the aforementioned MMA gym. I'm currently enrolled at the former. They have a decent mix of self-defense and sport focus from what I've seen so far.

 

[rmongler]

1. Weapon retention
2. Staying on your feet
3. Putting your counterpart(s) on the ground


Assess such aspects of training programs that concern close-quarter situations with regards to their relationship with such cardinal factors.

 

[shincheckin]

BJJ obviously, I would choose boxing over MT or any other kicking martial art for that matter. Simply because you aint gonna be kicking in those tight pants they make you guys wear. I would also suggest wrestling, wrestling is the most common and natural form of human fighting. Something else to consider is obviously all the tactical training, but aside from that, I would learn situational awareness, body language, and common human reactions for scenarios. I worked in a jail for a bit. Criminals can be some smart guys, straight con men, master manipulators etc. Please believe they are studying your every move, action, behavior, body language, nuances, ticks, etc. They are on it. Also, theres going to be a big difference between subduing someone, and fighting someone. For fight/self defense if your attacked, obviously use a weapon first, doesnt need to be lethal, but winning a fight is much easier, and a much more effective option. Why punch someone when you can bop them over the head with a club. Also, people tend to listen better when you have a weapon. Having that taser out and ready to go, people are gonna comply, for the most part.

 

[Safton]

BJJ obviously, I would choose boxing over MT or any other kicking martial art for that matter. Simply because you aint gonna be kicking in those tight pants they make you guys wear.

I've heard cops recommend low leg kicks as potentially doable and useful, which I can see. But yeah, you're not going to be throwing anything above the waist between the pants and the duty belt. Like I said, my main interest in MT would be learning the clinch work which has a much more direct application.

Something else to consider is obviously all the tactical training, but aside from that, I would learn situational awareness, body language, and common human reactions for scenarios. I worked in a jail for a bit. Criminals can be some smart guys, straight con men, master manipulators etc. Please believe they are studying your every move, action, behavior, body language, nuances, ticks, etc. They are on it.

Absolutely. This is the most consistent advice I've heard from acquaintances who have worked in the field.

Also, theres going to be a big difference between subduing someone, and fighting someone. For fight/self defense if your attacked, obviously use a weapon first, doesnt need to be lethal, but winning a fight is much easier, and a much more effective option. Why punch someone when you can bop them over the head with a club. Also, people tend to listen better when you have a weapon. Having that taser out and ready to go, people are gonna comply, for the most part.

Hitting a suspect over the head with a baton is against policy at all major departments these days. It's only defensible if it's a lethal force situation (in which case you'd almost certainly be using your sidearm). But yeah, I get what you're saying. But there seems to be a growing consensus that there's a gap between verbal deescalation and use of weapons (less-lethal or otherwise) that's filled nicely by martial arts. Lack of training in the former and over-reliance on the latter has led to a lot of tragedies over the years.

Funny story I saw on another forum related to the subject at hand. A friend's dad was a CO at a prison and his Duty Sergeant was a BJJ Purple Belt and avid competitor. He was very proud of his gold medal finish at a recent Masters tournament and let his coworkers know it. One day an altercation breaks out between said Sergeant and an inmate. He doesn't hesitate to hit him with a textbook flying armbar... only to have four other inmates standing nearby run over and start stomping him out. After some ribbing from the teller of the story, the Sergeant swore he'd stick to "whupping 'em with the stick" from then on.

 

[Borass]

I have a small exp working in a prison ( not as a guard ). I would advise wrestling or judo and boxing ( wrestling/ judo is more important for me). I think wrestling/judo is better than bjj because bjj relies more on patience which is not a good choice in this context. You want to be explosive, bring quickly to the ground or being able to keep standing. You will be used to push and be pulled. However,bjj is still an outstanding tool...

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

i've only seen a couple of his videos, but Mike the Cop on youtube has at least one video on BJJ/martial arts, and his other videos seem pretty good as well for other topics

 

[DoctorTaco]

Muay thai. You’re going to want the clinch work, knees, and elbows. I’m currently training a cop who busted his hand fighting with a guy. We work striking into takedowns, strong blocks and defense that don’t rely on the gloves, and basic striking fundamentals.

honestly MMA would be better for you. It emphasizes top position, your jits gets filtered through the “can I get punched in the face right now?” Screen, and you can learn to strike with people trying to take you down or shoot take downs on people smacking you in the face.

 

[shincheckin]

I've heard cops recommend low leg kicks as potentially doable and useful, which I can see. But yeah, you're not going to be throwing anything above the waist between the pants and the duty belt. Like I said, my main interest in MT would be learning the clinch work which has a much more direct application.



Absolutely. This is the most consistent advice I've heard from acquaintances who have worked in the field.



Hitting a suspect over the head with a baton is against policy at all major departments these days. It's only defensible if it's a lethal force situation (in which case you'd almost certainly be using your sidearm). But yeah, I get what you're saying. But there seems to be a growing consensus that there's a gap between verbal deescalation and use of weapons (less-lethal or otherwise) that's filled nicely by martial arts. Lack of training in the former and over-reliance on the latter has led to a lot of tragedies over the years.

Funny story I saw on another forum related to the subject at hand. A friend's dad was a CO at a prison and his Duty Sergeant was a BJJ Purple Belt and avid competitor. He was very proud of his gold medal finish at a recent Masters tournament and let his coworkers know it. One day an altercation breaks out between said Sergeant and an inmate. He doesn't hesitate to hit him with a textbook flying armbar... only to have four other inmates standing nearby run over and start stomping him out. After some ribbing from the teller of the story, the Sergeant swore he'd stick to "whupping 'em with the stick" from then on.

leg kicks will be doable, but leg kicks dont stop people....they are a weapons used to slowly break down your opponent. Leg kicks arent har to learn either so go for it.

Regarding the MT clinch, learn the basic clinch and knees, and stop there, the rest of pure MT clinch applications will get you taken down. Its too "tall" in style.

 

[Safton]

I have a small exp working in a prison ( not as a guard ). I would advise wrestling or judo and boxing ( wrestling/ judo is more important for me). I think wrestling/judo is better than bjj because bjj relies more on patience which is not a good choice in this context. You want to be explosive, bring quickly to the ground or being able to keep standing. You will be used to push and be pulled. However,bjj is still an outstanding tool...

I missed my chance for wrestling back in high school: something I still regret to this day. Taking a second look, apparently a wrestling school just recently opened up pretty close to me. It's geared toward folkstyle and the training of kids and high schoolers, but they supposedly take all ages and experience levels. Something I might look into in the future. Unfortunately there are no Judo schools within a reasonable distance.

i've only seen a couple of his videos, but Mike the Cop on youtube has at least one video on BJJ/martial arts, and his other videos seem pretty good as well for other topics

Yeah, I've watched a few of his videos before. Him and some of the videos he's posted of police altercations is part of my inspiration for wanting to train grappling.

Muay thai. You’re going to want the clinch work, knees, and elbows. I’m currently training a cop who busted his hand fighting with a guy. We work striking into takedowns, strong blocks and defense that don’t rely on the gloves, and basic striking fundamentals.

honestly MMA would be better for you. It emphasizes top position, your jits gets filtered through the “can I get punched in the face right now?” Screen, and you can learn to strike with people trying to take you down or shoot take downs on people smacking you in the face.

Yeah, I definitely plan to give the MMA classes a go.

leg kicks will be doable, but leg kicks dont stop people....they are a weapons used to slowly break down your opponent. Leg kicks arent har to learn either so go for it.

Regarding the MT clinch, learn the basic clinch and knees, and stop there, the rest of pure MT clinch applications will get you taken down. Its too "tall" in style.

Pretty much my thoughts. I've been told leg kicks are that much more effective when someone doesn't have the conditioning to be used to them; I can think of one or two videos of just one causing guys to collapse in a street fight. Just seems like a good option to have in one's back pocket and arguably "better" than the alternative of trying to strike their legs with the ASP which is SOP.

***

EDIT: Having done a bit more research, it seems the aforementioned wrestling school wouldn't be a great fit. They're currently in-season doing advanced intermediates and youth beginners, so my only option would be to arrange for private lessons or 5 "anytime" sessions. The cost is also pretty high up there. Something I might look into to complement the other stuff in the future and once I have a firmer grasp of job responsibilities and what I'm looking for specifically.

The MMA gym is looking better and better. They have great ratings and all the programs I'm interested in, plus a free 2-week trial. I'm waiting to hear back on pricing, but I'm hopeful. In the meantime I'll keep attending my current BJJ classes and just let things fall into place.

 

[JohnPJones]

If you can find a good old school okinawan karate place go with that.
It will teach you striking, clinch fighting, several different kinds of takedowns and limb control/manipulation techniques.

It doesn’t have much actual ground fighting but okinawan karate will indeed cover most of what you’ll encounter.

I work hospital security currently under the chief of police for the local university. She treats us pretty much the same as the campus police, and we do a lot more fighting than the campus cops do lol, and I feel my goju training is more than enough for what I’ve encountered in the last 11 months

 

[RabbitPunch36]

@Red Beard
I think this is your area of expertise

 

[THE Red Beard]

@Red Beard
I think this is your area of expertise

Alright man first and foremost I'd make sure to work on the art of verbal judo. In my 11 years and three prisons I've gotten out of more fights than I've been in. Next, I'll explain my background and tell you why I went that way. I started at the age of 7 with Kenpo and did that until the age of 14. When I was 9 I also took up boxing. I stuck with that through my 20s and had some fights. Then at 18 I started Jiu Jitsu and still do it to this day. I'm 34 now and I'll tell you the job can take a mental toll so a good outlet is key. I wouldn't even think of Muy Thai as a defense system for law enforcement because clinch work is a pretty bad idea if you have a gun or non-lethal on your hip...you are risking getting it taken away. I have boxed in the field and circling away while maintaining control and distance was key until help arrived. Also, inmates knew I fucked the dude up with my hands...I gained respect for that. I've used jiu jitsu for control once I had an inmate down. I wouldn't learn too much joint manipulation as those things don't look great when you get reviewed on your use of force. Message me if you have any questions buddy and good luck

 

[Safton]

If you can find a good old school okinawan karate place go with that.
It will teach you striking, clinch fighting, several different kinds of takedowns and limb control/manipulation techniques.

It doesn’t have much actual ground fighting but okinawan karate will indeed cover most of what you’ll encounter.

I work hospital security currently under the chief of police for the local university. She treats us pretty much the same as the campus police, and we do a lot more fighting than the campus cops do lol, and I feel my goju training is more than enough for what I’ve encountered in the last 11 months

Nothing of the sort, I'm afraid. As much as I'd like to train knockdown karate one day, the only traditional schools around here cater heavily towards kids and seem to have minimal, if any, sparring. A couple make claims to having a small affiliate program of Jiu-Jitsu mixed in, but that's about it.

Alright man first and foremost I'd make sure to work on the art of verbal judo. In my 11 years and three prisons I've gotten out of more fights than I've been in. Next, I'll explain my background and tell you why I went that way. I started at the age of 7 with Kenpo and did that until the age of 14. When I was 9 I also took up boxing. I stuck with that through my 20s and had some fights. Then at 18 I started Jiu Jitsu and still do it to this day. I'm 34 now and I'll tell you the job can take a mental toll so a good outlet is key. I wouldn't even think of Muy Thai as a defense system for law enforcement because clinch work is a pretty bad idea if you have a gun or non-lethal on your hip...you are risking getting it taken away. I have boxed in the field and circling away while maintaining control and distance was key until help arrived. Also, inmates knew I fucked the dude up with my hands. I gained respect for that I've used jiu jitsu for control once I had an I mate down. I wouldn't learn too much joint manipulation as those things don't look great when you get reviewed on your use of force. Message me if you have any questions buddy and good luck

Yeah, the most consistent advice I've heard from anyone who's worked in the field has been reliance on situational awareness and verbal deescalation. Makes perfect sense to me. I'm not a confrontational person by nature.

The way it's been explained to me, the clinch is more of a transitional thing rather than hanging out there as one might in a match. A lot of big-name departments have mixed Muay Thai into their DT programs with success. In any case, the BJJ will absolutely be a thing for as long as I'm able to roll and I'm going to give MMA, Boxing, and MT all a fair shake.

Thanks for the first-hand experience!

 

[ironkhan57]

If you got the money to do both boxing and judo then do it. And then later do bjj.

If your in nj go to carnicella mma. Paul carnicella is a former swat team officer and retired cop, he'll help you to choose better.

Again kicking in a fight is not that effective. So boxing and judo would be best for now. Also a little muay thai to learn them elbows would be better cuz elbows are great with boxing honestly.

 

[Blake_UK]

Man, I'd love to train Judo, but there are no schools in my immediate area. Conversely, I have two high-quality BJJ schools practically down the road from me: one solely BJJ, the other is the aforementioned MMA gym. I'm currently enrolled at the former. They have a decent mix of self-defense and sport focus from what I've seen so far.

Then try boxing alongside your BJJ; you can always have a couple of private lessons to concentrate a bit more on standing holds or throws etc if you feel it’s needed. Seems like a legit combo to me - I’m self defence/fitness focused and that’s what I do.

 

[SandisLL]

Criminals can be some smart guys, straight con men, master manipulators etc. Please believe they are studying your every move, action, behavior, body language, nuances, ticks, etc. They are on it. Also, theres going to be a big difference between subduing someone, and fighting someone.

This all, yes.
1. Sometimes you are able easily to KO/ TKO a guy that you can't submit with pure grappling.
2. Sometimes destabilisation or even throws work on ppl that aren't easily beatable otherwise. Some subjects are surprisingly tough when get punch or kick, some surprisingly fragile.

 

[the ambush]

BJJ obviously, I would choose boxing over MT or any other kicking martial art for that matter. Simply because you aint gonna be kicking in those tight pants they make you guys wear. I would also suggest wrestling, wrestling is the most common and natural form of human fighting. Something else to consider is obviously all the tactical training, but aside from that, I would learn situational awareness, body language, and common human reactions for scenarios. I worked in a jail for a bit. Criminals can be some smart guys, straight con men, master manipulators etc. Please believe they are studying your every move, action, behavior, body language, nuances, ticks, etc. They are on it. Also, theres going to be a big difference between subduing someone, and fighting someone. For fight/self defense if your attacked, obviously use a weapon first, doesnt need to be lethal, but winning a fight is much easier, and a much more effective option. Why punch someone when you can bop them over the head with a club. Also, people tend to listen better when you have a weapon. Having that taser out and ready to go, people are gonna comply, for the most part.

I am going through the screening process to attend LEO training at the moment. Look there's no reason to fight fair if you do not have to which will be constantly instructed in training. Learning self defense is perfectly fine and recommended in this field but I do not believe as a LEO it is the end all be all, endurance and strength work outs should be emphasized. I will be issued weapons to use if shit hits the fan.

 

[Safton]

I am going through the screening process to attend LEO training at the moment. Look there's no reason to fight fair if you do not have to which will be constantly instructed in training. Learning self defense is perfectly fine and recommended in this field but I do not believe as a LEO it is the end all be all, endurance and strength work outs should be emphasized. I will be issued weapons to use if shit hits the fan.

Strength and endurance matter, absolutely. But there's a recognizable gap in between verbal deescalation and use of weapons (lethal or otherwise) that I feel effective grappling fits well. It can (and already has) saved lives on both sides of the equation.