Standup Style for LEO/Corrections

[SandisLL]

Sometimes guys really might not start to beat even if they have advantage in numbers.
To show superiority in standup grappling ower a guy is less shame for him if compare if you had punched him in face. This, for example if you work somewhere where he is free, maybe does have even good legal assistance and enough buddies.
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There is huge difference how people react to beating.
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I wasn't LEO or security specialist or bouncer.
Exp?
For example if you had lived in places where….you know what is meant with this.
Or if you had exp what is to run all 24 h shift in real shithole for 24/7 store, pub and hotel + saunas and car park.
Or what stuff is to help run a gym in ….rough neighbourhood.
Btw might look terrible but not less than 1/2 guys in this hole had more humanity than casual inhabitant. Yes, unlucky and so on, might be aggressive, society judges them too fast and easily.
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I then used what I knew a bit then not later of course.
*With this experience actually I had more interest about h2h related stuff, then more easily awailable gyms, styles.
Now I don't have interest about self defense.
Yes, I had helped to teach self defense to some athletes ( not large number of them ) a bit but I never was an instructor or like this. Instructors can help better if they also have realistic mind not dreams.
-----
Really rarerly but, if crafts used: a bit from JJJ for service applications ( or you might assume also combat sambo for service purposes with adds ) and dirty boxing + KB plus just abit form stuff ( approach ) that more is known as https://www.rbth.com/history/329166-brutal-communist-karate

Mainly this then.
Lesser is better.
Plus if regards to KB, my first instructor wasn't notable but he was just former street wise kid from rough neighbourhood that had competed in Greco- Roman as a teen before learned KB for sport. 0 secret techniques.
Other good SD instructors I had saw were with backround like this: were paid by government to teach new h2h instructors or like this. Proof about background from HR& references.
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Regards to possibility undervalue opponent if based on his credentials, I recently had examples. to turn in pro a guy with 20 amateur bouts and place against a guy with 3-2 in pros, approx 60 ammy bouts under belt that newer in his life had been down in the ring. Not a star but not bum. For me too, looked not smart choice.
I actually get why plenty of ppl assumed that it is mismatch, still.
Guy initially looked too nervous and there were ideas to cancel this bout.
Nope, the more he get hit, the better he was able to fight, also to punch him was more difficult and landed he more precise too.
Later it was clear that his opponent was lucky that this is just 4 rounder not 6 rounder.
BTW opponent was >25<30 not old veteran or young youngster and with 2 months notice.
If compare with what stuff initially in beginning were matched plenty of other guys with better ammy credentials than he had, it was damn tough debut match.
He after first round performed better than plenty of guys with 6 pro bouts under belt and more sponsors/ parents $ for camps and training.
& Stuff like this is also on the streets and if they are punched in face and still are able to fight...
Rarerly happens but if happens…...
*
MT and BJJ I didn't had this experience for tech street in these years but looks not bad.
Guys here knows better, these that had work exp in LEO or security for example with training exp in BJJ/MT.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

When things get stressful, people act how they train. Being comfortable on your back is a negative in a bad situation, because not only do you not want to be there in 99% of real situations but your brain will tell you it's a comfortable start position which it absolutely is not IRL. It even happens in the gym, visiting bjj guys (ammy fighters even) literally guard-flopping when they get jabbed in a low-pressure drill. You want to stay standing in law enforcement no matter the costs. Judo and/or wrestling, supplemented with boxing (so you can read/feel when punches are coming and instinctively and efficiently avoid/counter them. That combo will actually save your butt.

If you've got a fetish for training something that will put you in a sub-par position, just remember that that same attraction is why so many people are drawn to mcdojos and garbage TMAs which don't work when things go down. You can't afford to be in that delusional group because unlike most of them, you ARE most likely going to get attacked (and NOT by inexperienced or weak people) and you need every tiny fundamental advantage you can get in a traumatic event, let alone several. Be smart, do what keeps you the safest. Other innocent people and co-workers will also be heavily depending on you.

 

[SandisLL]

Boxe it think is helpful to develop instincts protect head not only from punches.
For example, throwed bottles flying in face/ head.
Asholes use bottles in two ways: throw bottle or break bottle and then…. or beat with bottle head.
Some kick chair to make it hit your legs and bang with another chair or bottle.
Actually all items that they might grab and throw in pub might be throwed on you for example.

 

[Safton]

When things get stressful, people act how they train. Being comfortable on your back is a negative in a bad situation, because not only do you not want to be there in 99% of real situations but your brain will tell you it's a comfortable start position which it absolutely is not IRL. It even happens in the gym, visiting bjj guys (ammy fighters even) literally guard-flopping when they get jabbed in a low-pressure drill. You want to stay standing in law enforcement no matter the costs. Judo and/or wrestling, supplemented with boxing (so you can read/feel when punches are coming and instinctively and efficiently avoid/counter them. That combo will actually save your butt.

If you've got a fetish for training something that will put you in a sub-par position, just remember that that same attraction is why so many people are drawn to mcdojos and garbage TMAs which don't work when things go down. You can't afford to be in that delusional group because unlike most of them, you ARE most likely going to get attacked (and NOT by inexperienced or weak people) and you need every tiny fundamental advantage you can get in a traumatic event, let alone several. Be smart, do what keeps you the safest. Other innocent people and co-workers will also be heavily depending on you.

This strikes me as a strawman if I'm being honest. It would be like me saying Judo's subpar because it makes the practitioner focuses on gi grips and wouldn't be useful against anyone not wearing a heavy jacket. Or that a wrestling is sub-par because they don't know how to work off their back or avoid subs while seeking a pin. But those would be two colossally silly things to say -- just like the myth that anyone who has trained BJJ is going to start a serious-face fight by flopping onto their back and inviting their assailant to join them. Not every BJJ practitioner seeks to pull guard. I am infinitely more comfortable on top even during open mat sessions and it's something I seek at every opportunity (though it usually doesn't work because, you know, White Belt). Yes, I want to be able to survive on my back if I ever need to -- shit happens -- but I would never go there willingly. Every martial art can have holes poked in it when viewed through the lens of a "real" fight; one could argue that boxing reinforces bad habits by making the boxer overreliant on the shield provided by large gloves, for instance. But nobody argues that boxing isn't an incredibly useful and important tool for other reasons, or that this issue can't be surmounted.

BJJ has already proven itself in MMA and real-life applications so long as everything is kept in context. I would much rather take my pick of the multiple quality BJJ gyms here than the Judo I don't have access to or the wrestling school I have no experience in, which will cost me more while not catering to my needs. Comparing BJJ to a McDojo-teaching TMA is, IMO, disingenuous.

All this being said, if/when I get the chance, I will absolutely seek to incorporate folkstyle and/or Judo.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Muay thai. You’re going to want the clinch work, knees, and elbows. I’m currently training a cop who busted his hand fighting with a guy. We work striking into takedowns, strong blocks and defense that don’t rely on the gloves, and basic striking fundamentals.

honestly MMA would be better for you. It emphasizes top position, your jits gets filtered through the “can I get punched in the face right now?” Screen, and you can learn to strike with people trying to take you down or shoot take downs on people smacking you in the face.

This is great advice. Why strike with a fist when you can hit 'em with the elbow. I started in boxing but i tend to use elbows to avoid damaging the hands. The elbow is also a damage magnifier.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Strength and endurance matter, absolutely. But there's a recognizable gap in between verbal deescalation and use of weapons (lethal or otherwise) that I feel effective grappling fits well. It can (and already has) saved lives on both sides of the equation.

I am a big believer that police should have to train grappling technique. A lot of situations can be "de-escalated" with grappling and it helps to cuff/restrain people. People also have more respect for strength and confidence. A large male that is confident/trained to fight will have less problems than a small female or male that the perpetrator can physically intimidate.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

This strikes me as a strawman if I'm being honest. It would be like me saying Judo's subpar because it makes the practitioner focuses on gi grips and wouldn't be useful against anyone not wearing a heavy jacket. Or that a wrestling is sub-par because they don't know how to work off their back or avoid subs while seeking a pin. But those would be two colossally silly things to say -- just like the myth that anyone who has trained BJJ is going to start a serious-face fight by flopping onto their back and inviting their assailant to join them. Not every BJJ practitioner seeks to pull guard. I am infinitely more comfortable on top even during open mat sessions and it's something I seek at every opportunity (though it usually doesn't work because, you know, White Belt). Yes, I want to be able to survive on my back if I ever need to -- shit happens -- but I would never go there willingly. Every martial art can have holes poked in it when viewed through the lens of a "real" fight; one could argue that boxing reinforces bad habits by making the boxer overreliant on the shield provided by large gloves, for instance. But nobody argues that boxing isn't an incredibly useful and important tool for other reasons, or that this issue can't be surmounted.

BJJ has already proven itself in MMA and real-life applications so long as everything is kept in context. I would much rather take my pick of the multiple quality BJJ gyms here than the Judo I don't have access to or the wrestling school I have no experience in, which will cost me more while not catering to my needs. Comparing BJJ to a McDojo-teaching TMA is, IMO, disingenuous.

All this being said, if/when I get the chance, I will absolutely seek to incorporate folkstyle and/or Judo.

Yes you can argue all sorts of things theoretically, but personal theory has no bearing on reality. Especially when you use arguments from people who don't train to support your "point". What I am talking about has been witnessed and is a fact of how our nervous system works-- it switches to involuntary actions in high-stress scenarios.

I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't witnessed it firsthand in actual training-- I'm not talking about any made-up theory. Instead of being defensive about it, just consider the adjustments you will need to keep you from falling into problem situations, which nobody actually CHOOSES to have negative habits, it's just what their own subconscious decides to do when the stress is on because they've ingrained it so much, plus they're not even aware of it until it is exposed.

Saying you would never willingly go to your back is like saying you would never willingly get KO'ed-- it lacks the realistic element of traumatic conflict. If being on your back or standing straight up with your chin in the air has been established as your reset point when things aren't even dicey yet then it will so much more be when your brain gets scrambled from a scuffle. You have to find your negative habits by sparring and training them back out (more difficult to do once you have already ingrained them but still possible)

The Gracies all had plenty of training and experience against striking and made sure their striking opponents did not have experience against grappling. It doesn't work as a case study because it was carefully planned, manipulated marketing, as they have already admitted. Probably shouldn't fall for decades-old marketing (and outdated, false equivalence arguments from people who haven't trained in what they talk about) if you want to avoid getting seriously injured in a high conflict high risk job

 

[Safton]

Yes you can argue all sorts of things theoretically, but personal theory has no bearing on reality. Especially when you use arguments from people who don't train to support your "point". What I am talking about has been witnessed and is a fact of how our nervous system works-- it switches to involuntary actions in high-stress scenarios.

I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't witnessed it firsthand in actual training-- I'm not talking about any made-up theory. Instead of being defensive about it, just consider the adjustments you will need to keep you from falling into problem situations, which nobody actually CHOOSES to have negative habits, it's just what their own subconscious decides to do when the stress is on because they've ingrained it so much, plus they're not even aware of it until it is exposed.[

Saying you would never willingly go to your back is like saying you would never willingly get KO'ed-- it lacks the realistic element of traumatic conflict. If being on your back or standing straight up with your chin in the air has been established as your reset point when things aren't even dicey yet then it will so much more be when your brain gets scrambled from a scuffle. You have to find your negative habits by sparring and training them back out (more difficult to do once you have already ingrained them but still possible)

This is my entire point. I would be approaching my training (and already do) from the standpoint of not trying to develop my guard game beyond the basic fundamentals. I have no misconceptions about what BJJ can and cannot do.

How is that the points I used about wrestling, Judo, and boxing also having the ability to potentially develop blind spots and artifacts one game don't reflect reality, but your own personal agenda of "if you train BJJ you will automatically pull guard if someone swings at you" is axiomatic? If it's the "I witnessed it firsthand" criteria, then we already have someone else in this thread talking about how a cop busted his hand in a fight and sought out Muay Thai. I'm sure if I wanted to scrape the bottom of the barrel I could find videos of judoka failing their throws/grips or wrestlers being put on their back and bridging to no real gain. But that doesn't represent the totality of the art nor invalidate the very real benefits each provides. To suggest otherwise is, as I've said, silly.

The Gracies all had plenty of training and experience against striking and made sure their striking opponents did not have experience against grappling. It doesn't work as a case study because it was carefully planned, manipulated marketing, as they have already admitted. Probably shouldn't fall for decades-old marketing (and outdated, false equivalence arguments from people who haven't trained in what they talk about) if you want to avoid getting seriously injured in a high conflict high risk job

The Gracies? Pfft. I specifically chose not to train at a gym even closer than my current one because it's a Gracie affiliate program that shat all over other grappling systems on the webpage and I'd rather not drink the Kool-Aid. I'm not talking about the early UFCs here. I'm talking about BJJ's continued use in the cage even years later when everyone is a trained grappler, along with the fact that it's being incorporated at various levels into law enforcement defensive tactics programs throughout the world.

I believe BJJ, properly-trained, is a valuable tool because I've already seen it in the niche and there's abundant evidence out there for anyone willing to actually look at it:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhCmPpcuY8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JddKpBlhHyc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sycAxPBGR7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBsTJdr0Oo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwc61EA_zdA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOL7wmCMXss

Yes, I know a lot of these are Gracie videos and I just got done writing them off. I'm willing to excuse Rener in this case as he and his brother have put a lot of groundwork working with cops to adapt BJJ into something specialized for law enforcement use. Also, he's on the ball posting vids like these.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

This is my entire point. I would be approaching my training (and already do) from the standpoint of not trying to develop my guard game beyond the basic fundamentals. I have no misconceptions about what BJJ can and cannot do.

How is that the points I used about wrestling, Judo, and boxing also having the ability to potentially develop blind spots and artifacts one game don't reflect reality, but your own personal agenda of "if you train BJJ you will automatically pull guard if someone swings at you" is axiomatic?

No, it's literally not axiomatic if it takes place in actual life, with BJJ practitioners in an actual gym -- not students but actual amateur FIGHTERS; I was as surprised as you are now, minus the luxury to play it off because it happened right in front of me. Your examples are not from real life, they're old blind arguments from internet people who don't train in the art or even category of art they are criticizing. That's the difference. Axiomatic.

All arts will need some adjustment. But acting as if they all have the same amount of needed adjustment to reality is absurd. Some need little to none, and some need to be re-tooled completely. Some fall somewhere in-between. With such a dangerous job/life scenario, everyone would be best served by prioritizing learning from the disciplines which provide the greatest and most solid results, with the LEAST adjustment to real life being needed.

And it's not exactly BJJ that makes you do it, it's having ONLY BJJ with no striking training to supplement it. Bad habits for striking. Which is why the Gracies smartly trained against striking before getting in there, so they could know their limitations and train out their weaknesses in actual pressure testing before getting on the big stage in front of everyone.

The Gracies? Pfft. I specifically chose not to train at a gym even closer than my current one because it's a Gracie affiliate program that shat all over other grappling systems on the webpage and I'd rather not drink the Kool-Aid. I'm not talking about the early UFCs here. I'm talking about BJJ's continued use in the cage even years later when everyone is a trained grappler, along with the fact that it's being incorporated at various levels into law enforcement defensive tactics programs throughout the world.

I believe BJJ, properly-trained, is a valuable tool because I've already seen it in the niche and there's abundant evidence out there for anyone willing to actually look at it.

I'm not even against learning from the Gracies, they're the main ones who still advocate training BJJ in a context which recognizes the dangers of going against striking for actual combat context instead of points. They actually knew they couldn't just walk in there and demolish everyone, each practitioner had to specifically train against those things to be effective at combating it. Experience.

Today the Gracies themselves have been complaining that BJJ has gone in the wrong direction and that only 20% of it is even applicable to MMA or combat. I agree. Mainstream BJJ as it is taught today has become "sport" oriented (aka McDojo-'ed) safe guardgame silly version of itself, quite different than the early to mid-2000's when it was still doing good things. People that aren't used to punches freeze up with the first weak one they feel (even just a jab) because their nervous system is unable to process it and either freezes or shuts down especially easily, and once you're in that state it's nearly impossible to get back out without a few peaceful moments to yourself.

The danger came when the marketing lie "all you need is BJJ because it's way more than the average joe can handle" became a widespread belief in order to get more $tudent$. People in the grappling forum still parrot this unrealistic, asinine comment today in 2020, with no sign of ever stopping.

People who have never fought are afraid of getting hit. BJJ guys who are taught over and over that they are ready for a fight without having been in a fight are actually worse off and in for a much bigger shock. They have brainwashed themselves of their necessary preservation instinct.

The submissions and sweeps (to get back up) from BJJ can be a very useful tool in an overall game, the guard game and fighting from your back not so much. You need to stay standing and mobile and know how to read and time your distance, currently BJJ cannot provide that for you. The point of Wrestling and Judo is to stay up and off your back, and also Boxing to be familiar with what you ARE DEFINITELY going to face. I think anyone can see the direct sense in this.

 

[Safton]

FYI, I edited my post about the same time you were responding. My bad, you may want to reread it.

No, it's literally not axiomatic if it takes place in actual life, with BJJ practitioners in an actual gym -- not students but actual amateur FIGHTERS; I was as surprised as you are now, minus the luxury to play it off because it happened right in front of me. Your examples are not from real life, they're old blind arguments from internet people who don't train in the art or even category of art they are criticizing. That's the difference. Axiomatic.

All arts will need some adjustment. But acting as if they all have the same amount of needed adjustment to reality is absurd. Some need little to none, and some need to be re-tooled completely. Some fall somewhere in-between. With such a dangerous job/life scenario, everyone would be best served by prioritizing learning from the disciplines which provide the greatest and most solid results, with the LEAST adjustment to real life being needed.

Yes and earlier in this thread we had someone mentioning how a cop busted his hand in a fight and was now seeking out alternative training. As two random internet people, the credence I lend both of you is the same at this point.

And it's not exactly BJJ that makes you do it, it's having ONLY BJJ with no striking training to supplement it. Bad habits for striking. Which is why the Gracies smartly trained against striking before getting in there, so they could know their limitations and train out their weaknesses in actual pressure testing before getting on the big stage in front of everyone.

The submissions and sweeps (to get back up) from BJJ can be a very useful tool in an overall game, the guard game and fighting from your back not so much. You need to stay standing and mobile and currently BJJ cannot provide that for you. The whole point of Wrestling and Judo is to stay up and off your back, and supplement with Boxing to be used to what you are going to face. I think anyone can see the direct sense in this.

Why the fuck are we arguing? My OP and stance throughout this thread has been specifically that I'm currently training BJJ and want to expand my horizons for recreational reasons and defensive. I created the thread to seek opinions on whether boxing or Muay Thai was more appropriate.

I have never felt BJJ on its own is sufficient if one is truly seeking the ability to avoid injury in a career field where fighting is a near-guarantee. I mean we see it all the time at the professional level with BJJ Black Belts who are excellent on the ground but have fuck all in ability to take the fight there because they never bothered to incorporate Judo and/or wrestling like Maia wisely did. It always has been and always will be an eye-roll from me when people say BJJ (especially the way many people train it these days) is the wunderkind of martial arts and all anyone will ever need for self-defense.

My stance is this: I'm training BJJ because that's what's available to me and I feel it does provide valuable tools when kept in context and compared to the barebones academy DT curriculum. It will be my base, that's unavoidable, but I count myself lucky that I train at a gym that incorporates striking defense and the like. I plan to add striking and MMA to my repertoire as soon as I'm able, with private lessons in folkstyle wrestling following when the opportunity presents itself.

I don't think we're in disagreement here.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

FYI, I edited my post about the same time you were responding. My bad, you may want to reread it.



Yes and earlier in this thread we had someone mentioning how a cop busted his hand in a fight and was now seeking out alternative training. As two random internet people, the credence I lend both of you is the same at this point.



Why the fuck are we arguing? My OP and stance throughout this thread has been specifically that I'm currently training BJJ and want to expand my horizons for recreational reasons and defensive. I created the thread to seek opinions on whether boxing or Muay Thai was more appropriate.

I have never felt BJJ on its own is sufficient if one is truly seeking the ability to avoid injury in a career field where fighting is a near-guarantee. I mean we see it all the time at the professional level with BJJ Black Belts who are excellent on the ground but have fuck all in ability to take the fight there because they never bothered to incorporate Judo and/or wrestling like Maia wisely did.

My stance is this: I'm training BJJ because that's what's available to me and I feel it does provide valuable tools when kept in context and compared to the barebones academy DT curriculum. It will be my base, that's unavoidable, but I count myself lucky that I train at a gym that incorporates striking defense and the like. I plan to add striking and MMA to my repertoire as soon as I'm able, with private lessons in folkstyle wrestling following when the opportunity presents itself.

I don't think we're in disagreement here.

Cool, dude. We're on the same page. We did it

 

[Safton]

Cool, dude. We're on the same page. We did it

Cool beans man. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I love practicing BJJ and plan on continuing to do so, but rest assured that I am not a drinker of the Kool-Aid

Now that we've got that out of the way, do you have an opinion on whether boxing or MT would be better-suited? In all likelihood I'm going to at least try both. I'm leaning heavily toward the former, but I'd like to dabble in the latter to at least get a feeling for some of the tools.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Cool beans man. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I love practicing BJJ and plan on continuing to do so, but rest assured that I am not a drinker of the Kool-Aid

Now that we've got that out of the way, do you have an opinion on whether boxing or MT would be better-suited? In all likelihood I'm going to at least try both. I'm leaning heavily toward the former, but I'd like to dabble in the latter to at least get a feeling for some of the tools.

^^This, exactly

Boxing basics and fundamentals, with MT techniques and tools (like elbows) tacked on after is a very smart way to go about it

@shincheckin did this, and he's an accomplished MT guy now. He also recommended boxing first if you scroll up.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Speaking as a cop who has worked as a correctional officer in a jail as well, I’d say judo is the most useful martial art. Since that doesn’t seem too likely for you I’d say Muay Thai and wrestling would be your other best options.

But, my background is in judo and MT and I know I’m biased as well.

At the end of the day you’ll need to be flexible, and the more tools in your tool box the better. I’ll say that in over a decade I’ve never punched someone with a closed fist; I have used leg kicks and lots of grappling of course. I’m also special operations so I wear BDUs and hardly ever was on duty in my Class A uniform.

 

[Safton]

Speaking as a cop who has worked as a correctional officer in a jail as well, I’d say judo is the most useful martial art. Since that doesn’t seem too likely for you I’d say Muay Thai and wrestling would be your other best options.

But, my background is in judo and MT and I know I’m biased as well.

At the end of the day you’ll need to be flexible, and the more tools in your tool box the better. I’ll say that in over a decade I’ve never punched someone with a closed fist; I have used leg kicks and lots of grappling of course. I’m also special operations so I wear BDUs and hardly ever was on duty in my Class A uniform.

I absolutely love Judo. I like watching it and I'd like to train in it one day. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll jump at it. But it doesn't seem to be in the cards... for now. The closest reputable Judo establishment I can find is 50 miles/over an hour away through some of the worst traffic imaginable. Unfortunately not realistic to train in it on a regular basis given my other commitments.

On the issue of uniforms, luckily my state's DoC recently moved away from the traditional Class-A uniform for its rank-and-file COs and into something more practical.

 

[shincheckin]

I am going through the screening process to attend LEO training at the moment. Look there's no reason to fight fair if you do not have to which will be constantly instructed in training. Learning self defense is perfectly fine and recommended in this field but I do not believe as a LEO it is the end all be all, endurance and strength work outs should be emphasized. I will be issued weapons to use if shit hits the fan.

exactly my point, theres no such thing as fair, cheap, or dirty, when not in sport context. And controlling and subduing someone, is entirely different than self defense. Most people dont realize this.

 

[Twelvepack]

exactly my point, theres no such thing as fair, cheap, or dirty, when not in sport context. And controlling and subduing someone, is entirely different than self defense. Most people dont realize this.

This. Im not a big guy, but i can take out larger opponents especially given enough time and space. Problem is if you're a bouncer, security guard or policeman you might not have that time or space not to mention you can't just throw the first punch and knock the dude out. You have to be big enough, strong enough and skilled to be ready for anything that comes your way. As a 5'9" lightweight i aint trying to work as a bouncer lol. You need someone who can tackle a 250+ man and controll him with minimal striking
Edit: my point is real life confrontations require a different mindset than a combat sport

 

[DoctorTaco]

Talked to the cop I train and he said he doesn’t like the Thai clinch because the first rule is to always know what someone is doing with their hands. You lose that with the thai clinch.

 

[eternaldarkness]

No, it's literally not axiomatic if it takes place in actual life, with BJJ practitioners in an actual gym -- not students but actual amateur FIGHTERS; I was as surprised as you are now, minus the luxury to play it off because it happened right in front of me. Your examples are not from real life, they're old blind arguments from internet people who don't train in the art or even category of art they are criticizing. That's the difference. Axiomatic.

All arts will need some adjustment. But acting as if they all have the same amount of needed adjustment to reality is absurd. Some need little to none, and some need to be re-tooled completely. Some fall somewhere in-between. With such a dangerous job/life scenario, everyone would be best served by prioritizing learning from the disciplines which provide the greatest and most solid results, with the LEAST adjustment to real life being needed.

And it's not exactly BJJ that makes you do it, it's having ONLY BJJ with no striking training to supplement it. Bad habits for striking. Which is why the Gracies smartly trained against striking before getting in there, so they could know their limitations and train out their weaknesses in actual pressure testing before getting on the big stage in front of everyone.



I'm not even against learning from the Gracies, they're the main ones who still advocate training BJJ in a context which recognizes the dangers of going against striking for actual combat context instead of points. They actually knew they couldn't just walk in there and demolish everyone, each practitioner had to specifically train against those things to be effective at combating it. Experience.

Today the Gracies themselves have been complaining that BJJ has gone in the wrong direction and that only 20% of it is even applicable to MMA or combat. I agree. Mainstream BJJ as it is taught today has become "sport" oriented (aka McDojo-'ed) safe guardgame silly version of itself, quite different than the early to mid-2000's when it was still doing good things. People that aren't used to punches freeze up with the first weak one they feel (even just a jab) because their nervous system is unable to process it and either freezes or shuts down especially easily, and once you're in that state it's nearly impossible to get back out without a few peaceful moments to yourself.

The danger came when the marketing lie "all you need is BJJ because it's way more than the average joe can handle" became a widespread belief in order to get more $tudent$. People in the grappling forum still parrot this unrealistic, asinine comment today in 2020, with no sign of ever stopping.

People who have never fought are afraid of getting hit. BJJ guys who are taught over and over that they are ready for a fight without having been in a fight are actually worse off and in for a much bigger shock. They have brainwashed themselves of their necessary preservation instinct.

The submissions and sweeps (to get back up) from BJJ can be a very useful tool in an overall game, the guard game and fighting from your back not so much. You need to stay standing and mobile and know how to read and time your distance, currently BJJ cannot provide that for you. The point of Wrestling and Judo is to stay up and off your back, and also Boxing to be familiar with what you ARE DEFINITELY going to face. I think anyone can see the direct sense in this.

I can testify to this. My brother is a reasonable grappler in straight submission, but he is a monster grappler in mma, because he has decent striking and is comfortable there. He is extremely dangerous from on top or underneath because he isn't scared of getting hit and remains hyper aggressive with his submissions. He used to tap people in mma that he couldn't touch in pure grappling.

 

[oldmansmoker]

It depends on whether you will be working in a prison or jail. This is how a one in one situation will go down. You will have your shit pushed in and when the cavalry arrive. You will get revenge on the perp. Or you will be blindsided and shanked. The best martial arts for prison is called respect.