International Sultan Erdogan whining about "Islamic heritage destruction" in Greece.

[rushbeg]

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/not-a-single-mosque-left-in-athens-erdogan/1860349

There is not a single mosque in Athens right now as all of them have been destroyed, Turkey’s leader said Sunday.

"Not a single mosque of ours still stands in Athens. They were all razed to the ground. But we did not resort to such ways in a city like Istanbul," said President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, referring to the 567th anniversary of the conquest of city, which was marked on May 29.

"Our mosques and symbolic monuments in places where we had to leave a century ago were destroyed in a short time."

Speaking during the opening ceremony for Hadimkoy Dr. Ismail Niyazi Kurtulmus Hospital in Istanbul, Erdogan said that when Sultan Mehmet Han -- also known as Mehmet the Conqueror -- conquered Istanbul, he was not welcomed as an enemy but like an "expected savior.”

"Our ancestors regarded conquest as not merely taking more lands but winning over hearts," he said.

Erdogan said his ancestors took care of all that is good, beneficial and favorable for humanity not only during the conquest of Istanbul but also during the conquests of all other places.

"Hagia Sophia was opened to the service of Muslims as their right of conquest by making it even more beautiful instead of razing it to the ground because of a religious animosity," he said, adding other places of worship were not touched and were maintained to meet the needs of the community.

“Only this picture is sufficient to demonstrate the magnanimity of our ancestors,” he added.

Erdogan underlined that in the past century, the country has not been "successful enough" in keeping alive the relics of its ancestors.

He stressed that during the past 18 years, Turkey has protected all the heritage of its geography and not only the heritage of own ancestors.

"When we came to power, we saw that only 460 buildings had been restored. In the last 18 years, we have restored 5,060 buildings and presented them to the service of our nation and humanity."

- Quran session in Hagia Sophia

On Friday, Turkey’s Ministry of Culture and Tourism organized “Conquest Feast in Hagia Sophia” in coordination with the Turkish Presidency’s Directorate of Communications as part of celebrations throughout the day of the conquest of Istanbul.

The program was followed with the recitation of the 48th chapter of the Quran, Surah Al-Fath, meaning Victory or Triumph, which Erdogan viewed via video.

Turkey on Saturday shot back at an objection from Greece on the reading of passages from the Muslim holy book, the Quran, in the Ayasofya (Hagia Sophia), a landmark mosque-converted museum in Istanbul.

Accusing Athens of making "futile and ineffective statements" on the event, which marked the 567th anniversary of the Ottoman conquest of the former Byzantine capital, Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Hami Aksoy said Greece's displeasure illustrated its "intolerant psychology."

"The fact that Greece, the only remaining European country without a mosque in its capital, is disturbed by the recital of the Holy Quran in Hagia Sophia is a case in point illustrating the intolerant psychology of this country, especially at a time when calls to prayer can be heard from minarets in Europe and the importance of the principle of mutual respect is increasingly valued," said the online statement.

Aksoy's statement came after earlier remarks from the Greek Foreign Ministry saying the move did not comply with the UNESCO Convention Concerning the Protection of World Cultural and Natural Heritage

Sultan Erdogan making excuses about Ottomans converting the Hagia Sophia church to an mosque , while whining about Greeks destroying "Islamic-Ottoman heritage".

The guy is such a dork with his Neo-Ottoman / Pan-Islamist ideologies lmao. His supporters are even sadder.


It's true though that many Balkan countries got rid of mosques after gaining independence while also either expelling or converting their own native muslim population.

 

[CauseImbetta]

Historically the Greeks and the Turks have been fighting for decades. Nothing new.

 

[tramendous]

Other than technicalities, I don't really see anything wrong with he is saying. The Ottomans added a lot to the structure. The Spanish turned the Great Mosque of Cordoba into a Church and it is still used as a church. Charles V visited the completed cathedral he was displeased by the result and famously commented: "You have destroyed something unique to build something commonplace."

The Secular Republic of Turkey turned a lot of old Mosques and also Churches into Museums. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Peter#:~:text=Peter's Cave Church, Cave-Church,of Christianity's oldest churches. and they still have old churches https://traveltriangle.com/blog/churches-in-turkey/

 

[rushbeg]

Historically the Greeks and the Turks have been fighting for decades. Nothing new.

Greeks didn't do much fighting until the 1821 revolution. Even the 1821 was supported greatly by western powers and a good portion of the revolutionaries were Albanians or even Vlachs(to a lesser extent).

Greeks actually were very submissive to the Turkish rule for the most part(Same with most Slavs) , Accepted the occupation while paying taxes and staying calm.

While many Greeks also integrated into Ottoman political society with many of them converting to Islam , Most of those greek converts now either identify as Turks or converted back to Christianity after Greece gained independence.


Orthodoxs weren't treated that bad by Ottoman authorities for the most part , Since Orthodoxy's highest body (Patriarchate of Constantinopole) was inside the Ottoman borders.
Of course in comparasion to Muslim citizens they were treated bad and as second-class citizens , but if we compare them to how Catholics were treated and seen we can even say that Orthodoxs were privileged.

 

[TheGreatA]

You don't really want to keep around monuments that remind you of the times when you were somebody else's bitch.

 

[tonni]

It's been a while since we heard of that piece of shit.

 

[rushbeg]

Other than technicalities, I don't really see anything wrong with he is saying. The Ottomans added a lot to the structure. The Spanish turned the Great Mosque of Cordoba into a Church and it is still used as a church. Charles V visited the completed cathedral he was displeased by the result and famously commented: "You have destroyed something unique to build something commonplace."

The Secular Republic of Turkey turned a lot of old Mosques and also Churches into Museums. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Peter#:~:text=Peter's Cave Church, Cave-Church,of Christianity's oldest churches. and they still have old churches https://traveltriangle.com/blog/churches-in-turkey/

Erdogan's ideology is giving rise to pan-islamist and neo-ottoman ideologies amongst Turkish citizens(and further) , Hence why Churchs in Turkey are so often attacked. As I said earlier it is true that Greeks and other Balkan people destroyed mosques after gaining independence.

Yeah Ataturk turned a lot of churches and mosques into museums (Hagha Sophia included) . He also secularized and modernized Turkey. Something that Sultan Erdogan is trying to destroy now alongside his supporters.

Ottomans conquered Constantiopole and converted Hagia Sophia church to an mosque , The Spanish liberated conquered parts of their country from Arabs and destroyed remnants of the conquest. Not really the same story if you wanna compare the two.

But I guess you're one of these guys who claim that Constantinopole was "liberated" rather than conquered lmao.

 

[MicroBrew]

Other than technicalities, I don't really see anything wrong with he is saying. The Ottomans added a lot to the structure. The Spanish turned the Great Mosque of Cordoba into a Church and it is still used as a church. Charles V visited the completed cathedral he was displeased by the result and famously commented: "You have destroyed something unique to build something commonplace."

The Secular Republic of Turkey turned a lot of old Mosques and also Churches into Museums. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Peter#:~:text=Peter's Cave Church, Cave-Church,of Christianity's oldest churches. and they still have old churches https://traveltriangle.com/blog/churches-in-turkey/

Islamic armies did destroy religious structures of other religions though; not necessarily referring to Ottoman conquests.

So what he is complaining about is that the Greeks destroyed instead of co-opting. Wouldn't Muslims regard it as blasphemous and desecration to modify and convert a mosque to a Church?

He says by right of conquest the Ottomans converted the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque but complains about Greeks by right of conquest removing mosques alltogether.
"Hagia Sophia was opened to the service of Muslims as their right of conquest

He says his ancestors were winning hearts and minds; Armenian genocide , ethnic cleansing and genocide of Greeks says otherwise.


Greek genocide by Ottoman Turks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

 

[ocfightfan]

Other than technicalities, I don't really see anything wrong with he is saying. The Ottomans added a lot to the structure. The Spanish turned the Great Mosque of Cordoba into a Church and it is still used as a church. Charles V visited the completed cathedral he was displeased by the result and famously commented: "You have destroyed something unique to build something commonplace."

The Secular Republic of Turkey turned a lot of old Mosques and also Churches into Museums. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Peter#:~:text=Peter's Cave Church, Cave-Church,of Christianity's oldest churches. and they still have old churches https://traveltriangle.com/blog/churches-in-turkey/

The "great mosque of Cordoba" was a church before it was a mosque. Much of the architecture style that is attributed to muslims is actually from the Visigothic Christians they conquered. One of the many things to understand is that most of the invaders from Africa were mostly Berber tribesman who did not have the technical knowledge to build anything of serious value.

 

[rushbeg]

Islamic armies did destroy religious structures of other religions though; not necessarily referring to Ottoman conquests.

So what he is complaining about is that the Greeks destroyed instead of co-opting. Wouldn't Muslims regard it as blasphemous and desecration to modify and convert a mosque to a Church?

He says by right of conquest the Ottomans converted the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque but complains about Greeks by right of conquest removing mosques alltogether.
"Hagia Sophia was opened to the service of Muslims as their right of conquest

He says his ancestors were winning hearts and minds; Armenian genocide , ethnic cleansing and genocide of Greeks says otherwise.


Greek genocide by Ottoman Turks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

Funny enough Erdogan ancestors were Laz peasants from Georgia who migrated to todays Turkey during the 1870s lmao.
Modern Turks in general are very mixed though.

 

[MicroBrew]

Funny enough Erdogan ancestors were Laz peasants from Georgia who migrated to todays Turkey during the 1870s lmao.
Modern Turks in general are very mixed though.

Vast majority of Turks are not 'Turks'. A new DNA paper on Turks just came out, I was thinking of making a thread in Mayberry about it.

A lot of Turks are Greeks who were forcefully converted to Islam and Turkified.

8% of Turkish DNA is from East Asia, considered the DNA signature of the original Turkic tribes. The original Turks were from what is today Mongolia.

Turks from Turkey are cultural Turks, just as North Africans and Egyptians are cultural Arabs.

 

[Oceanmachine]

Vast majority of Turks are not 'Turks'. A new DNA paper on Turks just came out, I was thinking of making a thread in Mayberry about it.

A lot of Turks are Greeks who were forcefully converted to Islam and Turkified.

8% of Turkish DNA is from East Asia, considered the DNA signature of the original Turkic tribes. The original Turks were from what is today Mongolia.

Turks from Turkey are cultural Turks, just as North Africans and Egyptians are cultural Arabs.

Turks are the same subrace as most of that region and levant. Armenoid. Or Mediterranean. So are modern greeks and agreed many were converted. Their language is mongoloid but the genetic inputs were not so common or dominant. There is a range on that 8% of east asian dna and its commonness among Turks today. Turks therefore are unique and are not turanid subraces like kazakh or central adian turkic speakers. Excluding Azeris as Azeris are Irano-afghans who also some mixed slavic but who speak Turkish.

 

[MicroBrew]

Turks are the same subrace as most of that region and levant. Armenoid. Or Mediterranean. So are modern greeks and agreed many were converted. Their language is mongoloid but the genetic inputs were not so common or dominant. There is a range on that 8% of east asian dna and its commonness among Turks today. Turks therefore are unique and are not turanid subraces like kazakh or central adian turkic speakers. Excluding Azeris as Azeris are Irano-afghans who also some mixed slavic but who speak Turkish.

Turks are Hurrians, Uratians, Greeks, Armenians, people from the Caucasus, Levantines, Kurds, Jews, Slavs and some other Anatolian folks . The East Asian DNA is tiny. They speak and East Asian language and worship an Arab religion.

Original Turks likely looked similar to these folks

 

[rushbeg]

Vast majority of Turks are not 'Turks'. A new DNA paper on Turks just came out, I was thinking of making a thread in Mayberry about it.

A lot of Turks are Greeks who were forcefully converted to Islam and Turkified.

8% of Turkish DNA is from East Asia, considered the DNA signature of the original Turkic tribes. The original Turks were from what is today Mongolia.

Turks from Turkey are cultural Turks, just as North Africans and Egyptians are cultural Arabs.

Ottoman Turks could’ve been mixed to begin with.

J2 seems to dominate amongst modern Turks today. In Balkans the haplogroup peaks amongst Greeks and Albanians(Different clades though ) Albanian clade(J2b2) is not really common in Turkey and having it in Turkey might just as well confirm Albanian origin.
It is more likely that Balkan populations were turkified than the other way around

Although J2b2 seemed to reach a solid rate in Greece as well last time I checked i think J2a was the dominant haplogroup amongst Greeks and Modern Turks also. J2 also dominates amongst Caucasian populations as well.

As said earlker , Turks arw very mixed. Since durinf 5 centuries of Ottoman Rule Turkish was the “dominant culture” and massive islamizations of populations. It is logical that many Greeks , Armenians , Slavs , Caucasus Populations , Albanians and other various populations form modern Turkish nation amongst original Seljuk Turks.

Greek population today is also mixed , but certainly less mixed than the Turkish population.

 

[Oceanmachine]

Turks are Hurrians, Uratians, Greeks, Armenians, people from the Caucasus, Levantines, Kurds, Jews, Slavs and some other Anatolian folks . The East Asian DNA is tiny. They speak and East Asian language and worship an Arab religion.

Original Turks likely looked similar to these folks

Subracially those are all the same group. ´´Hurrians, Uratians, Greeks, Armenians, Jews and Levantines´´ all the same.
the first link has the best map I have ever seen and most accurate but it does label and call some ethnic groups that are mixed. However, each group could remove 2 or 3 from there catgeories to get down to purer subraces. For example ´´Italic´´ can be also known as the Mediterranean subrace which for sure does exist categorically as different from Arab or Baltoid aka Slavic. For example basques, maltese, greek, jews, georgians are all ethnic groups which may be mixes of subraces but arent in themselves as categorically different.

However, I do agree with you. Turkish nationalism is interesting but is quite confusing and amusing from purist stand point. Pan arab racial nationalism actually makes sense for example, but Turkish? It is just amusing. Speaks asiatic mongoloid language, yet are not genetically mongoloid. Persecute other native ethnic groups that are of the SAME subrace, yet claim yourself to be entirely different subracial roots. Worships an Arab centric and supremacist religion which by no means disparages or hates Turks but sees ARABS as the elite of their religion. Follows a branch of Sunni Islam which is opposed to non Arabs leading the Muslim world.

They arent the only group like this on earth though. At times I also think of Ukrainian nationalism that is anti Russian as quite misplaced in addition to Macedonians as an artificial nation. However, Turks do take the cake.

 

[tramendous]

Erdogan's ideology is giving rise to pan-islamist and neo-ottoman ideologies amongst Turkish citizens(and further) , Hence why Churchs in Turkey are so often attacked. As I said earlier it is true that Greeks and other Balkan people destroyed mosques after gaining independence.

Yeah Ataturk turned a lot of churches and mosques into museums (Hagha Sophia included) . He also secularized and modernized Turkey. Something that Sultan Erdogan is trying to destroy now alongside his supporters.

Ottomans conquered Constantiopole and converted Hagia Sophia church to an mosque , The Spanish liberated conquered parts of their country from Arabs and destroyed remnants of the conquest. Not really the same story if you wanna compare the two.

But I guess you're one of these guys who claim that Constantinopole was "liberated" rather than conquered lmao.

Erdogan is not some lone wolf at the helm. Turkey which was a leading Islamic power for centuries was forced into secularization by ataturk and nationalists where Muslim identity was constantly suppressed and under siege in favor of a turkish nationalist ethnostate. What you are seeing is the backlash of Turkish Islamic identity. Its part of a much more complex phenomenon than simply wanting the Ottoman Empire back. Thats just pandering.

 

[tramendous]

Islamic armies did destroy religious structures of other religions though; not necessarily referring to Ottoman conquests.

So what he is complaining about is that the Greeks destroyed instead of co-opting. Wouldn't Muslims regard it as blasphemous and desecration to modify and convert a mosque to a Church?

He says by right of conquest the Ottomans converted the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque but complains about Greeks by right of conquest removing mosques alltogether.
"Hagia Sophia was opened to the service of Muslims as their right of conquest

He says his ancestors were winning hearts and minds; Armenian genocide , ethnic cleansing and genocide of Greeks says otherwise.


Greek genocide by Ottoman Turks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

No what he is complaining about is how in Turkey there was no wholesale destruction of Churches as Mosques were in Greece. There are still lots of old and grand churches in Turkey but you wont really find anything of the sort in Greece when it comes to mosques.

The question comes down to what right does Greece even have over the building. It has not been a church since 1453, became a mosque in that year and was turned into a Museum in living memory. If Greece has any say over a building that has not belonged to them since 1453, can other countries start making claims to structures outside their borders that they have not held for centuries? Especially if it is being reverted into something that it already was for centuries?

 

[rushbeg]

Erdogan is not some lone wolf at the helm. Turkey which was a leading Islamic power for centuries was forced into secularization by ataturk and nationalists where Muslim identity was constantly suppressed and under siege in favor of a turkish nationalist ethnostate. What you are seeing is the backlash of Turkish Islamic identity. Its part of a much more complex phenomenon than simply wanting the Ottoman Empire back. Thats just pandering.

Yeah , The same people who brought Islam to the Balkans. Probably one of the worst things to happen to the Balkans besides Slavic Invasion.


Erdogan’s ideology is not only dangerous inside Turkosh borders , His ideologu has expansionist claims and visions.


Answer this question , Do you consider Fall of Constantinopole as an conquest or liberation?

 

[MicroBrew]

No what he is complaining about is how in Turkey there was no wholesale destruction of Churches as Mosques were in Greece. There are still lots of old and grand churches in Turkey but you wont really find anything of the sort in Greece when it comes to mosques.

The question comes down to what right does Greece even have over the building. It has not been a church since 1453, became a mosque in that year and was turned into a Museum in living memory. If Greece has any say over a building that has not belonged to them since 1453, can other countries start making claims to structures outside their borders that they have not held for centuries? Especially if it is being reverted into something that it already was for centuries?

Well the relaionship between the Greeks and the Turks is the former losing out to the later, with the later being the instigator. Any group that feels it has been wronged is prone to completely reject and oppose the opposing party. The opposing party being the conquering party doesn't need to have the same level of deep grievance.

 

[Bald1]

Lovely. Their delusions don't have any bearings on reality. What an arrogant fucking moron. They didn't win any hearts in central Europe during their centuries of slaughter and slavery, I can tell you that much.

"Our ancestors regarded conquest as not merely taking more lands but winning over hearts," he said.