Opinion The end of the War on Islam

[KAZSoliloquy]

Yes there are racists, then there's those who dislike your ideology. Trying to combine the 2 is hilarious.

If anything your proving my point.. they attacked Sikhs because of the garb they wore, because they thought he was part of your ideology... not because " he was brown " they attacked because they thought they were Muslim... literally targeted because of the perceived ideology.. not because of their race.... It's still a heinous crime imo but done because the dumbarses wanted revenge against the Islamic ideology.. not " brown people ". and they still should be locked up for life.

So they literally were targeting people for mistaken identity.. ( wrongly assigning ideology) not because they were brown. Any Muslim regardless of race / ethnicity could walk straight past the vast majority of people in " regular clothes " and nobody would have a clue.

Not that they should have to . ( wear whatever ya want. Fuck those guys )

Not racism... sorry I know it makes things easier for you to think you're A huge victim and critics of your religion are " racist ". But it's just not applicable.

Edit of course there are racist muslim haters tho.. racists definitely exist. But you're just using it far to freely as a argument point to dismiss criticisms of your faith.

the lack of brain power here is insane. a brown person being racially profiled as a muslim when they aren’t isnt racist?

 

[hitcher]

And how is hoping that Islam will be a major world power again offensive to anyone? It shouldn’t be. The question here is the fake outrage to my comments about Muslims being the majority one day. You’re arguing a tangential point.

The Post I quoted related to being a Jihad sympathizer if you hoped/wished for Islam world domination. Jihad has different meanings, that is one. And that cannot be achieved in a peaceful way. Understand now akhi?

 

[moosaev]

The Post I quoted related to being a Jihad sympathizer if you hoped/wished for Islam world domination. Jihad has different meanings, that is one. And that cannot be achieved in a peaceful way. Understand now akhi?

Nobody ever mentioned world domination, all i ever said was Muslims will be the majority very soon (which is true). How can anybody seriously infer that this means I support Jihad?

 

[hitcher]

I was referring to his original comment. He started tut tutting me, then says he doesn’t care anyway. Shut your pie hole if you don’t care.

Not sure why you are being so emotional. Inshallah everything is fine with you

 

[moosaev]

the lack of brain power here is insane. a brown person being racially profiled as a muslim when they aren’t isnt racist?

I didn't bother to respond to him when i read that post, he's legitimately an idiot.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Are you familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs? The vast majority of Muslims are occupied with the basics of providing shelter, food and security to their families, they simply don’t have the mental bandwidth to be concerned with the Muslim world’s fall from grace. In specific contexts this does come up, for example Israel and the status of Jerusalem. Most Muslims feel deeply angered that the Muslim world cannot muster the kind of unity and global political/military pressure to defend Palestinians and the Muslim claim to Jerusalem. Outside of that, small fringe groups like ISIS are trying to resurrect the bygone reality but the idea that there is a wide scale program of Muslims trying to take over the world and resurrect the Caliphate is laughably absurd. The disturbing thing is among large parts of the Conservative European and American establishment it’s almost taken as a given that this is the Muslim plan. The deranged anti-Semitic conspiracies of yesteryear have been replaced with deranged anti-Muslim conspiracies of today. People actually site books like Eurabia as though it’s a serious book. People listen to lunatics like Robert Spencer and Douglas Murray.

A lot of those Muslims that are occupied with providing food and shelter for their families blame their hardships on their repressive governments, colonialism and western secularism. I certainly believe they would be open to a Khalifa ushering in a just government that would take care of their basic needs in accordance with Islamic law.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

I didn't bother to respond to him when i read that post, he's legitimately an idiot.

yeah not every post that quotes you deserves a response. the amount of drivel posted on both sides of every argument here is nauseating.

 

[moosaev]

A lot of those Muslims that are occupied with providing food and shelter for their families blame their hardships on their repressive governments, colonialism and western secularism. I certainly believe they would be open to a Khalifa ushering in a just government that would take care of their basic needs in accordance with Islamic law.

What they would be open to is irrelevant. Struggling people will be open to anything that relieves them of their struggles. The question is whether Caliphate as an organizing principle is something that any significant portion of the Muslim world is working toward. The answer is flatly no. They have other things on their plate.

 

[AngryWeasel]

No no no. He wants to civilize the shithole that rejected such generosity in blood, for centuries. He's clearly generous like that and surely this time they'd welcome Islam with open arms. Nevermind the fact they voted against accepting Islam into the country by over 80% recently. But being a generous benefactor he's willing to civilize them, for their own good against their will. Now why wouldn't they accept such generosity? Damned infidels!

Muslims arguing on the net as muslims is always entertaining, 3/4 funny 1/4 sad.

The level of hypocrisy, double standards and ugly bravado is usually through the roof

Personnaly I gave up a long time ago

 

[moosaev]

Muslims arguing on the net as muslims is always entertaining, 3/4 funny 1/4 sad.

The level of hypocrisy, double standards and ugly bravado is usually through the roof

Personnaly I gave up a long time ago

Westerners talking about double standards is pure comedy.

 

[AngryWeasel]

Westerners talking about double standards is pure comedy.

How so ?

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

What they would be open to is irrelevant. Struggling people will be open to anything that relieves them of their struggles. The question is whether Caliphate as an organizing principle is something that any significant portion of the Muslim world is working toward. The answer is flatly no. They have other things on their plate.

But you said:

"And how is hoping that Islam will be a major world power again offensive to anyone?"

What is the argument, that many Muslims are currently working towards a global pan islamic "caliphate" or that many are hoping for one. If it's the former then I'll agree that it's currently not happening.

 

[Islam Imamate]

This is clearly a deeply emotional subject for a lot of people, but yeah, the idea that Islam as in the early medieval Caliphate just somehow magically appearing and governing 1/5 of the world between Morocco and Indonesia is, if anything, more fanciful than someone reforming the Holy Roman Empire or the Papal States.

Even among Muslims who claim to support a caliphate, if you ask them about it many just want something like a Muslim EU where barriers to trade and migration are reduced and where there's some common development strategies and institutions. Of course even that is highly unlikely, the EU nations are largely contiguous and are much more like one another in terms of social norms and material conditions and even that project is fraying. And this is apparent even to said Muslims who support the idea, to them its a nice aspiration that just maybe might happen many decades down the line but that no one expects to happen in their lifetime.

It reminds me of the out-of-touch whining about Iran. "Look at these women wearing skirts in the 70s!". Most people in Iran (esp. in the 70s, but so today as well) are concerned with having their basic needs met. Amorphous ideas about "sexual freedom" are so far down the list of what is a pressing problem that it makes the regime changers just look insane.

Its that out of touch thinking that leads many Westerners to deeply misunderstand the motivations of Muslim political actors on the ground. Most Islamist movements do a good job of creating social welfare networks that materially improve the lives of their constituents which is why they're so consistently able to create a resilient opposition to some of the most repressive governments in the world. That's lost on many observers who assume these Muslims must be backwards simpletons revolting against secularism for its own sake.

And the funny thing is these conditions were often generated by the West itself. Most of these countries had expansive public welfare and state industries that, while not necessarily efficient, were able to provide a certain minimum amount of material benefits to the citizenry. Most citizens in these places were okay with ceding a political monopoly to the ruling elites so long as they maintained a certain level of material wealth and social welfare. With the fall of the USSR and the global hegemony of liberalism, most of these states were pushed to undergo structural adjustment programs that dismantled those systems and gave the opening to the Islamist movements to fill the void.

Right, it's just horribly out of touch. Anand Gopal just wrote a wonderful long form article on the issues in Afghanistan that puts this issue front and center: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afghan-women

He should win the Pulitzer for this, give it a read. Highly recommend.

I was going to mention that article myself, its a great read that provides important insights into the Taliban resurgence well.

 

[AngryWeasel]

Always fun to see the educated moderate muslim teaming to death with the islamist provocateur

 

[moosaev]

But you said:

"And how is hoping that Islam will be a major world power again offensive to anyone?"

What is the argument, that many Muslims are currently working towards a global pan islamic "caliphate" or that many are hoping for one. If it's the former then I'll agree that it's currently not happening.

The argument is that very few spend time even thinking about it, I'm here on Sherdog discussing political issues, i'm not the average Muslim. What I hope for does not represent what the man on the street hopes for by a long shot. I'm very well off and have the luxury of entertaining such thoughts.

 

[Denter]

Even among Muslims who claim to support a caliphate, if you ask them about it many just want something like a Muslim EU where barriers to trade and migration are reduced and where there's some common development strategies and institutions. Of course even that is highly unlikely, the EU nations are largely contiguous and are much more like one another in terms of social norms and material conditions and even that project is fraying. And this is apparent even to said Muslims who support the idea, to them its a nice aspiration that just maybe might happen many decades down the line but that no one expects to happen in their lifetime.

Its that out of touch thinking that leads many Westerners to deeply misunderstand the motivations of Muslim political actors on the ground. Most Islamist movements do a good job of creating social welfare networks that materially improve the lives of their constituents which is why they're so consistently able to create a resilient opposition to some of the most repressive governments in the world. That's lost on many observers who assume these Muslims must be backwards simpletons revolting against secularism for its own sake.

And the funny thing is these conditions were often generated by the West itself. Most of these countries had expansive public welfare and state industries that, while not necessarily efficient, were able to provide a certain minimum amount of material benefits to the citizenry. Most citizens in these places were okay with ceding a political monopoly to the ruling elites so long as they maintained a certain level of material wealth and social welfare. With the fall of the USSR and the global hegemony of liberalism, most of these states were pushed to undergo structural adjustment programs that dismantled those systems and gave the opening to the Islamist movements to fill the void.

I was going to mention that article myself, its a great read that provides important insights into the Taliban resurgence well.

A quote from the article:

The women in Helmand disagree among themselves about what rights they should have. Some yearn for the old village rules to crumble—they wish to visit the market or to picnic by the canal without sparking innuendo or worse. Others cling to more traditional interpretations. “Women and men aren’t equal,” Shakira told me. “They are each made by God, and they each have their own role, their own strengths that the other doesn’t have.” More than once, as her husband lay in an opium stupor, she fantasized about leaving him. Yet Nilofar is coming of age, and a divorce could cast shame on the family, harming her prospects. Through friends, Shakira hears stories of dissolute cities filled with broken marriages and prostitution. “Too much freedom is dangerous, because people won’t know the limits,” she said.

Very true, Shakira.

 

[moosaev]

A quote from the article:


Very true, Shakira.

According to the Western intelligentsia the brown woman’s agency is only legitimate if they choose to adopt Western norms. If they reject Western norms, then they must be brainwashed or being held hostage by the men, it can’t possibly be by their own agency. That’s why anti-Muslim bigots think all hijabis are being forced to wear the hijab. It’s a manifestation of Western hubris, they can’t fathom anyone not willingly adopting Western norms and habits.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

The argument is that very few spend time even thinking about it, I'm here on Sherdog discussing political issues, i'm not the average Muslim. What I hope for does not represent what the man on the street hopes for by a long shot. I'm very well off and have the luxury of entertaining such thoughts.

Well I would disagree with you then if the argument is "just think about it", in Indonesia 1 and 5 want a Caliphate

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-islam-radicalism-idUSKBN1D20KW

Once again, if it's 1%-5% we're talking 15 Mil - 75 Mil people. That's not very few.

 

[moosaev]

Well I would disagree with you then if the argument is "just think about it", in Indonesia 1 and 5 want a Caliphate

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-islam-radicalism-idUSKBN1D20KW

Once again, if it's 1%-5% we're talking 15 Mil - 75 Mil people. That's not very few.

You’re putting way too much weight on surveys man. Someone asking you a handful of brief (and in many cases loaded) questions tells you very little about how much thought the average man puts to these questions. The issue I find many Westerners have with Islam is that because of the lack of knowledge about culture and lack of any personal connections there tends to be an over extrapolation of survey and polling data. You guys sorely lack context and it shows very clearly in your opinions.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

You’re putting way too much weight on surveys man. Someone asking you a handful of brief (and in many cases loaded) questions tells you very little about how much thought the average man puts to these questions. The issue I find many Westerners have with Islam is that because of the lack of knowledge about culture and lack of any personal connections there tends to be an over extrapolation of survey and polling data. You guys sorely lack context and it shows very clearly in your opinions.

With discussions like this it's all we really have, polling data and history. If you don't agree with it then state that I just don't understand then ok, not much further we can go.