Opinion The end of the War on Islam

[moosaev]

With discussions like this it's all we really have, polling data and history. If you don't agree with it then state that I just don't understand then ok, not much further we can go.

Survey data is not all you have, you can take the time to talk to Muslims with an open mind and learn what they think. Relying on survey data is lazy.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Survey data is not all you have, you can take the time to talk to Muslims with an open mind and learn what they think. Relying on survey data is lazy.

I certainly have spoken with Muslims, I haven't had the opportunity to speak to the religious ones living in dictatorships to see what they would prefer. Until then I'll have to use the information I can gather, which includes polls.

 

[and 68 others like this]

Christian communities in Kenya, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Nigeria all do this. You really are a moron.

Don’t forget the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Apparently its an ancient Egyptian practise.

 

[moosaev]

I certainly have spoken with Muslims, I haven't had the opportunity to speak to the religious ones living in dictatorships to see what they would prefer. Until then I'll have to use the information I can gather, which includes polls.

Somehow I highly doubt you’ve spoken to Muslims about the kind of topics we’re discussing and have gotten to know them at a deeper level. But maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Anewt]

the lack of brain power here is insane. a brown person being racially profiled as a muslim when they aren’t isnt racist?

Because of the clothes they wore they were targeted.... not because they were brown... it's really not rocket science. They were targeted because of the perceived religion.. not because they were brown..... its not racism.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Somehow I highly doubt you’ve spoken to Muslims about the kind of topics we’re discussing and have gotten to know them at a deeper level. But maybe I’m wrong.

As you can see I've been polite with you, not sure why you'd think that I couldn't have spoken to Muslims on a deeper level. Having friends from different backgrounds and discussing topics about our identities and experiences isn't that strange is it?

 

[moosaev]

As you can see I've been polite with you, not sure why you'd think that I could have spoken to Muslims on a deeper level. Having friends from different backgrounds and discussing topics about our identities and experiences isn't that strange is it?

Wasn’t trying to be disrespectful. It’s just that any deep level relationships with Muslims in the West is rarer than you think. Part of the reason anti-Muslim sentiment is so high is because so few of the Western public personally know any Muslims. Consequently I just think the odds are against you knowing Muslims to the degree where you’d have these type of conversations. Like I said, I could be wrong.

 

[Bald1]

As you can see I've been polite with you, not sure why you'd think that I could have spoken to Muslims on a deeper level. Having friends from different backgrounds and discussing topics about our identities and experiences isn't that strange is it?

And his reluctance to give your opinion any meaningful consideration highlights the issue within much of Islam. No matter how you want to label such defensiveness it is indeed irrational.

If you told just about any reasonable person that between 1 to 5% of a group they belong to hold abnormal ideas, or ideas not in line with the mainstream of said ideology, they'd concede the possibility. As an example; the nearest label that fits me is liberal (individualist, secularist, anti authoritarian, anti dogma, equal opportunity and rights to all) and if you told me that 5% of the people who claim similar values are absolutely terrible people or only believe those things situationally I wouldn't blink an eye. 1 to 5% falls into the outlier heading and is absolutely within a margin of error in polls or aberrations of anything evaluated.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Wasn’t trying to be disrespectful. It’s just that any deep level relationships with Muslims in the West is rarer than you think. Part of the reason anti-Muslim sentiment is so high is because so few of the Western public personally know any Muslims. Consequently I just think the odds are against you knowing Muslims to the degree where you’d have these type of conversations. Like I said, I could be wrong.

No disrespect taken, I'm just confused. Where you are from you don't see Muslims and non Muslims that are friends? It's pretty common wherever I've lived.

 

[Islam Imamate]

A quote from the article:


Very true, Shakira.

What a wise and pure maiden.

I certainly have spoken with Muslims, I haven't had the opportunity to speak to the religious ones living in dictatorships to see what they would prefer. Until then I'll have to use the information I can gather, which includes polls.

Lmao, okay this is silly. Of course we gotta go with polls over anecdotal data so he's way off base here. Pew is very reputable so its a good source.

Anyway, 1 in 5 wanting a caliphate fits with the Pareto principle; 80% of political Islam comes from 20% of the population. Any society is going to have its vital few so to speak.

 

[moosaev]

What a wise and pure maiden.

Lmao, okay this is silly. Of course we gotta go with polls over anecdotal data so he's way off base here. Pew is very reputable so its a good source.

Anyway, 1 in 5 wanting a caliphate fits with the Pareto principle; 80% of political Islam comes from 20% of the population. Any society is going to have its vital few so to speak.

I never said to ignore the polls, go read what I said, I said Westerners tend to over extrapolate from polls and surveys. These sources are by definition narrow and lacking context. The context is what’s missing from most Western analysis of Islam and Muslim societies. I see Westerners using all sorts of polling data but it’s obvious they’re deriving the wrong conclusions from it because they’re unfamiliar with the on ground experience of Muslims. By the way, I wouldn’t dismiss having real life interactions with Muslims as anecdotal, it serves an important function in giving context to the subject.

 

[Rand M Arthur]

You said that inside the Saudi establishment its the clerics funding radical Islam but your own link says establishment clerics are against that. Some rogue preachers don't represent the clerical establishment which is almost always against terrorism and Islamism. And as I said there professionals are actually more likely to join and lead Islamist movements. Look at OBL, was he a preacher? No, he studied business administration.

I don't see where he's calling for Islamic imperialism, he's simply pointing out that Islam is the fastest growing religion. Whether that's a good or bad thing or whether its even true is up to debate but merely pointing out that conversions are happening doesn't mean support for imperialism. Meanwhile this TheMaster guy is out here saying some pretty crass shit and actually supporting Western imperialism against Muslims but you're happy to support that. This is the thing, Muslims are expected by Westerners to be meek, have no pride, and agree with Westerners if they want to be seen as moderate. If they aren't then they are perceived as extremist or whatever. I think moosaev puts his foot in his mouth at times but people act like he's some bloodthirsty jihadist when he's not half as bad as the average WR poster.

He is making an implicit threat, one which you are obviously blind to as you are jot the target. He talks about the Crusades, which were a response to islamic imperialism. When Christian across the world decend into the Levant to reclaim the land from invading gulf arabs, that is a stain on humanity. But when Muslims from across the world decend into the Levant to reclaim the land from invading Americans, that is just the holy duty.

When the Mughals ethnically cleansed the Indus valley of Hinduism and Buddism, that was right and just. Not like when the Spanairds put a stop to Aztec human sacrifice.

And I never wrote 'establishment' I wrote 'the clerics'. It is well known there is a strand of clerics for whom want to push wahabbiism to the world. They assassinate King Faisal rather than let western influence seep into the kingdom. In the long run they will lose either way. Paraphrasing the famous quote goes, "The Persians had their influence, then the Indians, then the Turks. Now the Arabs will decide what direction Islam takes"

 

[hitcher]

I never said to ignore the polls, go read what I said, I said Westerners tend to over extrapolate from polls and surveys. These sources are by definition narrow and lacking context. The context is what’s missing from most Western analysis of Islam and Muslim societies. I see Westerners using all sorts of polling data but it’s obvious they’re deriving the wrong conclusions from it because they’re unfamiliar with the on ground experience of Muslims. By the way, I wouldn’t dismiss having real life interactions with Muslims as anecdotal, it serves an important function in giving context to the subject.

That is a post which shows that you are able to somewhat critically think (no offense). I am happy for you, really in good faith.

However, much like the other poster I have very close friends that are Muslims (some sunni, some other sects) and had friends at work that are Muslim (mainly sunni and Shia), generally turks, kurds and iranians. The majority of them live very liberal lifestyles. So I freely talk to them about many subjects, including the ones in this thread. You certainly won’t believe me, but it’s fine, you may believe whatever you want.

You should know very well, that there is no such thing as one muslim mindset.

 

[Islam Imamate]

He is making an implicit threat, one which you are obviously blind to as you are jot the target. He talks about the Crusades, which were a response to islamic imperialism. When Christian across the world decend into the Levant to reclaim the land from invading gulf arabs, that is a stain on humanity. But when Muslims from across the world decend into the Levant to reclaim the land from invading Americans, that is just the holy duty.

When the Mughals ethnically cleansed the Indus valley of Hinduism and Buddism, that was right and just. Not like when the Spanairds put a stop to Aztec human sacrifice.

And I never wrote 'establishment' I wrote 'the clerics'. It is well known there is a strand of clerics for whom want to push wahabbiism to the world. They assassinate King Faisal rather than let western influence seep into the kingdom. In the long run they will lose either way. Paraphrasing the famous quote goes, "The Persians had their influence, then the Indians, then the Turks. Now the Arabs will decide what direction Islam takes"

Pointing out that Islam is the fastest growing religion is an implicit threat? Do you also think calling Islam an invasive species and a cancer is an implicit threat as well? If moosaev here said that about Judaism, I don't think you'd give him the benefit of the doubt based on how you're uncharitably interpreting his statements here.

Of course there are Wahhabi clerics who want to spread Wahhabism, I never denied that. What you claimed is that there are Wahhabi clerics funding jihadists, that's a different claim which you failed to source.

 

[Bald1]

Pointing out that Islam is the fastest growing religion is an implicit threat? Do you also think calling Islam an invasive species and a cancer is an implicit threat as well? If moosaev here said that about Judaism, I don't think you'd give him the benefit of the doubt based on how you're uncharitably interpreting his statements here.

Of course there are Wahhabi clerics who want to spread Wahhabism, I never denied that. What you claimed is that there are Wahhabi clerics funding jihadists, that's a different claim which you failed to source.

Appreciate you not misrepresenting my position. Could have quoted the whole "conservative cancer that's Islam" bit, but close enough. Baby steps.

With the exception of Israel, has Judaism ever laid claim to any lands? Therein lies the difference and why one statement would be applicable while the other obviously off base.

 

[Yehudim]

Survey data is not all you have, you can take the time to talk to Muslims with an open mind and learn what they think. Relying on survey data is lazy.

I may have more sympathy for this POV if Muslims, like other far right extremists, wouldn’t conceal their true beliefs.

 

[Islam Imamate]

With the exception of Israel, has Judaism ever laid claim to any lands? Therein lies the difference and why one statement would be applicable while the other obviously off base.

Missing the point yet again but par the course for you at this point.

 

[Bald1]

Missing the point yet again but par the course for you at this point.

No, I get the point.

You're refusing to see how the analogy doesn't apply to Judaism at all, making the relevancy of the statement you claim to be similar completely off base. One is the truth, your version is asinine. Not similar at all. Own the truth if you want legitimacy.

 

[Islam Imamate]

No, I get the point.

You're refusing to see how the analogy doesn't apply to Judaism at all, making the relevancy of the statement you claim to be similar completely off base. One is the truth, your version is asinine. Not similar at all. Own the truth if you want legitimacy.

I don't care why you don't think the analogy fits.

The question is how would you have interpreted someone like moosaev using that analogy. Would you assume he's an antisemite or give him the benefit of the doubt? You never gave a straight answer and that's because we all know what the honest answer is. Of course you wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt, we've seen that time and time again.

I don't care what you think the truth is. Twice recently you've made up weird lies, the one about some past avatar and then the one related to the ethnic cleansing argument, so clearly you don't have a good grasp on it.

 

[Denter]

What a wise and pure maiden.

.

*matron. She was the one with 8 kids and a worthless addict husband in the article. She's certainly seen some shit though.