The Frode post good kung fu thread.

[StanClarker]

My favorite Jackie Chan scene

I posted this very same video where I came to TSF and commenced upon my striking style investigation. My post was in response to all the constant criticism and faulting of Wing chun (whatever it is) compared to boxing,,, and how Wing chun could be applicable in MMA if only it would change and morph into boxing, whatever... What a croc.

This video offers evidence that Wing chun in the hands of a skilled practitioner could wipe the floor with what we see in the boxing ring or MMA. Of course Jackie Chan is extraordinarily gifted physically... a world renowned stunt man.... most of us could never come close.

What MMA is really scared of is a practitioner like this wiping out it's {quote} stars {quote} leaving a sport with shallow, substandard skills which don't measure up to the centuries old martial arts. I can hear the air hissing out of the punctured bag as the full contact Muay Thai & boxers & MMA make sounds like wounded sheep as their faces and bodies are beaten to a pulp.

Of course you have to understand what Wing Chun is... I certainly don't know. And it was Bruce Lee's base art... where are all the JKD killers with their wing chun base? Yeah, most of them don't know either.

What the value of the Judo experience is / has been to our class is that once you get the principles down... you are able to do things the untrained person can't, against larger, stronger, taller, opponents which you otherwise couldn't do. To do so isn't accomplished by fighting... it's accomplished by knowing the art.

 

[StanClarker]

Returning to the issue of the necessity of live sparring, obviously in order to be randori and not an exercise in pointless ego-driven brawling reliant merely on power and ferocity, correct technique has to be used and that is the job of the instructor to correct and control the participants accordingly.

Certainly the established members here have some real striking chops. Thread starter... I posted a video with him and he shows real accomplishment & polish. Purportedly, he says his sparring & competition lead him to that point. No doubt in my mind.

But success in one's own field doesn't define another. I think you have to be careful about comparing apples with oranges... say Judo w wrestling perhaps the best or one of the best comparisons. Wrestling is driven by striking for comparative physical strength for a certain size class (like MMA), which then physically driven strength techniques are applied. MMA example, Andrade's famous fight upsetting slam of Namajunas. That's a great MMA match with competitive skills on both sides (as opposed to the usual "lets bang").

As to actual fighting, I sit up and take notice because physically I'm more akin to Rose, and I might be facing a stronger physical wrestler inside or outside Judo class who may attempt the same wrestling philosophy overall on me. And Andrade's wrestling is very, very effective we can all agree on that. Now Rose has all the sparring practice in the world, both from her TKD (is ti) days and from her early full contact MMA sparring MMA (@ Roufus was it), to her latest home (@ 303 is it) with the more polished boxing style. The style that destroyed the extremely long win streak of Jedrzejczyk who baths in the glory of sparring Muay Thai & MMA with very long competition track records in both.

So, my friend, there is something much more than sparring and full contact. And that is true skills, as Rose learned her 'elite' MMA boxing wasn't sufficient to defend against the stronger, skilled wrestler. The result, as devastating loss which could have resulted in permanent serious injury.

 

[StanClarker]

I apologise ahead of time if I misunderstood you, but as far as I can gather, neither I nor TheMaster were saying that MMA has some inherent superiority to kungfu - rather we appear to agree that the lessons that mma can impart to what kungfu has deteriorated to becoming in the present day is the same lesson imparted by judo in earlier times to jujitsu - that randori and regular actual non lethal fighting using its techniques are necessary to keep the art combatively alive and relevant.

As to kung fu,,, this 'good' kung fu thread, my impression of kung fu is that overall it is more theoretical. At the same time, it has fighting applications.

Boxing on the other, is directly applicable to full contact competition or martial use. The caveat is captured in my girl boxing challenge video in which one, the girls, had to devote themselves to the entire program. The nutrition, the conditioning, the basic striking drills, wash, rinse, repeat, in showing up @ the gym to do the routines.

Boxing, it is very straightforward to grasp the idea, and see the end results. But it too is a fooler, as glancing at the many articles or threads on boxing @ TSF and YT... you soon should realize there is a lot of theory too in getting it right. Sparring without the theory down is what most boxing outfits seem to do... certainly MMA for the most part. With lackluster results. Some of the pro gym examples are very impressive... and it shows the kind of devotion & dedication it takes to truly excel @ boxing.

 

[Sanserif]

Firstly quite apart from.the lessons of discipline and self control and moral values whixh it can impart, in order to be a martial (not marital art as you typed in!) Art, it has to be first martial before it can be art. In other words if it is not combativrly effective in nature, then it is not Martial and it is merely art - like dance or performance art. Otherwise it is a healthy exercise like chi kung is alleged to be or as tai chi as devolved into being. However when repackaged into these forms, it is never an ideal fit and imparts those lessons of morality and character building in a less than ideal form - something which religion does a lot better at.

Hence first and foremost if practitioners of a martial art have lost their combative effectiveness due to incorrect emphasis and poor training methodology and attitude, then that cannot be allowed to decline any further because a complete loss of that will result in the perversion of what that art was meant at its heart to be - an effective way To defend oneself against a hostile and criminal threat to ones life and limb. If the martial art is not an effective form of self defence it has become a lie and its raison d'etre is nullified.

Secondly you seem to have great antipathy for mma which you stereotype as being about shallow skilled people beating each other up into a pulp. Inherent in your view is the idea that mma is unskilled or untutored in the deeper understanding and acquisition of the skills of each of its base arts. This is contradicted by what we see in the progression of skill in mma - unlike the beginning when unskilled brawlers could still be found plying their trade, nowadays you have to have a high proficiency in at least one of the arts and an adequate grasp of the other arts to even survive in the octagon. Gone are the days when a gracie bjj artist could dominate by using bjj alone - today the mma fighter must be relatively adequate in all areas and if he hopes to get ahead he has to be significantly better in some of those attributes. Fighters like khabib are not just very skilled and strong wrestlers but also possessing a threat in striking as well as a powerful mastery of range and timing. I am sure anyone would agree that "mighty mouse" demetrious Johnson is an incredibly skilled martial arts in virtually every plane of unarmed martial art.

Instead of disparaging mma in favour of tbe mystical masters of old, you should realise and see the gritty substance of the masters of older days in these modern pugilists. They succeed in the hard job of walking the talk.

Thirdly it doesnt take a genius to see that there is sometime wrong with what many traditional forms of kungfu have deteriorated into. Almost all fights and challenges between these tma and mma fighters have ended with abject humiliation for the former. For an art like wingchun, it is a far cry from its heyday when its leaders woild regularly engage in martial duels and challenged into fighting to prove the combative veracity of wingchun - from the days of its early history in the 19th century under Leong Jan to its heyday in the 1950s when ip man's students like wong whun leong would regularly take part in the infamous rooftop duels of Hong Kong and they would triumph over the exponents of other arts. If those early kungfu leaders would have been told your views, they would have been shocked. A very tenet of kungfu is that martial arts proficiency and mastery is proven by being able to meet a martial challenge by another exponent and to use your art to hold your own and to defeat him or at least not be defeated by him. They proved this over and over again to establish the bona fides of theory art. In fact in the 19th century some of those masters would not only defeat their opponents but they would end up killing them - such was how uncompromising they were. I would suggest you google about bazia and pigua master Li shu wen who was so skilled with the spear he was called the god of the spear. He is about the closest embodiment to the fictitious Pak Mei you can find as he killed many of those who fought him and was only killed in the end through poison. He developed such power he was known to kill his opponents by crushing their spinal column by a palm.strike to the top of their heads. He developed such skill with ranging and speed and timing that his boast was that he never had to hit a man twice.

One can respond to the present state of affairs of poor martial skill in tma by realising that there is something wrong and trying to fix it so that the reality can return to what it was once, or one can deny reality. You can respond to the challenge of someone like Xu Xiandong by persecuting him and disparaging him (even as he continuously defeats a string of so called masters in tma despite being not even being a professional pr particularly skilled mma fighter at all) or one can take the lesson from these results and train combatively to return the art to where it was once.

I forgot I was on a forum... where the absolute mysteries of the ancient martial arts are to be found. Your entre is a repackaging of the popularized, commercial MMA script that there is always something wrong with traditional martial arts practice... but not that ridiculous TUF house.



This is / was a view of Jigoro Kano I have been told... but as great as he was, he & Judo aren't the last words on the approach to martial arts or grappling. Funny how the adults @ our dojo all recognize this, and instead focus on learning the essential lessons of Jigoro Kano.

As to the randori,,, I have been losing the matches which were (until the lockdown) with instructors & seniors,,, which TSF immediately pointed out to me as my thinking was questionable. Randori is a learning exercise, just like what I understand to be the highly controlled sparring espoused by boxing... not a competition like MMA and forum board take it & make it.


This is the MMA, full contact show I can do it, beat people up mantra which both popularized kyokushin, the summarily ruined it. Guys wanna bang (you got them here big time) and fans want to pay to see guys who wanna bang. That's not martial arts... it's guys bangin.' It's turned into a profitable venture and entire industry with the magical efforts of Dana White... but that's a certain business acumen prized by consumers... not martial arts.


You're certainly highly knowledgeable about marital arts of all stripes, while I am not. But I (we @ out dojo) know that martial arts is essentially learning & grasping the principles of the art which spring from it's philosophy. The philosophy of MMA & full contact is pounding the bajesuz outta of the opponent... witness Zhang vs. Jedrzejczyk. Garnered attentiona across the whole of MMA, yet are you suggesting that this is the measure of the martial arts experience?

TBC

 

[StanClarker]

Firstly quite apart from.the lessons of discipline and self control and moral values whixh it can impart, in order to be a martial (not marital art as you typed in!) Art, it has to be first martial before it can be art.

Damn, I had to stop & furiously find that typo. And I disagree. Judo imparts many benefits besides self defense. But anyhow... forums like to drag on for content.

You're certainly worth what they are paying you,,, say that.

In other words if it is not combativrly effective in nature, then it is not Martial and it is merely art - like dance or performance art. Otherwise it is a healthy exercise like chi kung is alleged to be or as tai chi as devolved into being. However when repackaged into these forms, it is never an ideal fit and imparts those lessons of morality and character building in a less than ideal form - something which religion does a lot better at.

Yaeah,,, more recycled MMA themes.

I posted a karate kumite video since the quality of practice or practitoiner, really eye opening,,, os many are so poor. Finding one now.

TBC

 

[Sanserif]

Firstly no one is suggestion that wingchun morph into boxing. What is the point of that? One may as well learn boxing. The point is though that wingchun needs to be trained combativrly and its teachers and exponents learn to adapt the art to face ip to threats it was never designed to overcome in the 19th and early 20th century in china. That will mean adapting the posture and hand positions and way of deploying the weapons of wingchun and bringing in sparring and fighting with exponents of other arts more to test ones proficiency. The contemporary context and milieu is different from the original incubator environment for kungfu and so exponents in such a context need to.adapt the art and progress it. It doesnt mean that today is better than 100 years ago but it is different and so one has to change to adapt to it - just as a modern boxer would need to change and adapt his art if he were somehow transported in time to the 19th century in china and had to make a living teaching and proving his art against all comers.

Secondly I hope you are not serious in showing a Jackie chan training sequence with a wooden dummy to suggest he would wipe the floor with mma fighters of today (or even of earlier days). Chan was a former chinese opera performer of considerable gymnastic ability and ability to do.movie kungfu. But dont make the mistake of thinking what looks flash onto he movie screen means the actor would do well in a octagon or ring.

The world still waits for the tma exponent who would in your words wipe the floor with boxers and mma fighters and who is able to make them make hissing sounds like punctured boxing bags and to beat their faces and bodies to a pulp. Sadly it is actually the other way around in almost all such bouts so far.

In saying this, I am in fact hoping for a resurgence in those tma whixh I believe has combative value but they must adapt and change and return to training combatively before they can show the world the value tnag is inherent In their art. I would be very happy to see that happen.

I posted this very same video where I came to TSF and commenced upon my striking style investigation. My post was in response to all the constant criticism and faulting of Wing chun (whatever it is) compared to boxing,,, and how Wing chun could be applicable in MMA if only it would change and morph into boxing, whatever... What a croc.

This video offers evidence that Wing chun in the hands of a skilled practitioner could wipe the floor with what we see in the boxing ring or MMA. Of course Jackie Chan is extraordinarily gifted physically... a world renowned stunt man.... most of us could never come close.

What MMA is really scared of is a practitioner like this wiping out it's {quote} stars {quote} leaving a sport with shallow, substandard skills which don't measure up to the centuries old martial arts. I can hear the air hissing out of the punctured bag as the full contact Muay Thai & boxers & MMA make sounds like wounded sheep as their faces and bodies are beaten to a pulp.

Of course you have to understand what Wing Chun is... I certainly don't know. And it was Bruce Lee's base art... where are all the JKD killers with their wing chun base? Yeah, most of them don't know either.

What the value of the Judo experience is / has been to our class is that once you get the principles down... you are able to do things the untrained person can't, against larger, stronger, taller, opponents which you otherwise couldn't do. To do so isn't accomplished by fighting... it's accomplished by knowing the art.

 

[Sanserif]

Furthermore StanClarker you seem to be differentiating knowing the art from sparring and training combativrly. This is a false dichotomy.

Drilling the techniques and form through kata and patterns and solo and two man drills is a given. That is present in every art including even boxing though one may not call working one twos and combos as patterns, they serve to drill the form and technique. You need his to know the art and the application.

But equally so you need free sparring in order to test that technique and then a feedback loop is created whereby deficiencies are found and one returns to drilling the technique before again field testing it in sparring. Hence one cannot know the art without free sparring. I the ultimate extent one cannot know the art without actually fighting using tbe art - and in these days that is only legally available in the ring or octagon.

 

[Sanserif]

Yes judo does impart self discipline and resilience but only of it actually works combatively. Otherwise it is no better than learning lightsaber combat - good exercise but utterly fantastical and fictitious in nature.

And judo works combatively because it is trained with combative elements in mind in the form of its randori which is the reason why judo succeeded at the expense of traditional jujitsu that had neglected randori. This is not my interpretation- this is what judoka themselves assert.

Damn, I had to stop & furiously find that typo. And I disagree. Judo imparts many benefits besides self defense. But anyhow... forums like to drag on for content.

You're certainly worth what they are paying you,,, say that.


Yaeah,,, more recycled MMA themes.

I posted a karate kumite video since the quality of practice or practitoiner, really eye opening,,, os many are so poor. Finding one now.

TBC

 

[StanClarker]

Here, I grabbed this one.
Kumite Class, Oct 2018 | UCD Karate
views
10/10/2018
by
UCD Karate

mmmmmmNow talking about 'good' kung fu, I don't think this is what the shaolin monks envisioned when the started kung fu practice in the way back, way back years. That is, adults behaving like thirteen year olds in a junior high gym class. I mean the one young black-belt instructor scoots around really fast... doing something akin to what I hear in MMA is cutting angles. Honestly, impresses me as a gerible with thyroid disorder.

Immature, unthinking people can ruin anything... including karate, kung fu, whatever. MMA has it's own version... the one I constantly see and am eternally entertained by... the post fight interviews where the confidence (false) of the prefight interview has completely vanished, replaced by that lost,,, bewildered speech about..."I don't know what happened, I thought I was completely prepared... my coach said I would win..." etc, etc, etc. No one @ our Judo dojo thinks or acts like this. Judo mastery is a long, long climb.

Firas Zahabi's crew is famous for this. If you want a name. He goes on & on like a forum,,, never ending talk.

 

[Sanserif]

As well I do not think that one should become patronising and insulting in a internet forum. No need to accuse me of being a shill for mma. No one is paying me to post these things. Our comments should never be personal and we should treat each other honourably - is this not what your judo teaches you?

The originator of your own art of judo said this about reigi which is the courtesies that a judoka is meant to show others:-

"Reigi is a formal system of etiquette that externally represents one's heartfelt thoughts and respect for others. Such systems exist in every society, and provide the conventions for interaction so that relationships can proceed smoothly. Social order is thereby maintained, and society can function peacefully and amicably.

Given this function, how should we approach Reigi? The primary intention of Reigi is to physically convey feelings such as respect, love, friendship, and so on. In cases where the pattern of etiquette is performed without sincerity, it simply becomes an empty formality rather than authentic courtesy. The value of such insincere formalities is negligible. Nevertheless, that is not to say that incorrect form is acceptable so long as feeling of sincerity underlies it. In the same fashion that outward form without sincerity is not good, protocols of Reigi that are not precise in delivery, even if done with a feeling of earnestness, are not suitable either..."

Damn, I had to stop & furiously find that typo. And I disagree. Judo imparts many benefits besides self defense. But anyhow... forums like to drag on for content.

You're certainly worth what they are paying you,,, say that.


Yaeah,,, more recycled MMA themes.

I posted a karate kumite video since the quality of practice or practitoiner, really eye opening,,, os many are so poor. Finding one now.

TBC

 

[StanClarker]

As well I do not think that one should become patronising and insulting in a internet forum.

So I see your'e a white belt. May I suggest more full contact for you then?
No need to accuse me of being a shill for mma. No one is paying me to post these things. Our comments should never be personal and we should treat each other honourably - is this not what your judo teaches you?[/QUOTE]If the shoe fits, wear it.
I think your posting has an agenda, as does mine. Differences of opinion bother you?

EDIT: Couple of my posts somehow got screwed up... I'm gonna log out.

 

[Sanserif]

Boxing is deceptively simple..it is actually a very sophisticated martial art and called tbe sweet science for good reason.

Again boxing shows that trying to differentiate sparring and drilling technique is illusory..both are integrated into every training session. Both are absolutely needed. But you ever seem to be trying to denigrate sparring...

As to kung fu,,, this 'good' kung fu thread, my impression of kung fu is that overall it is more theoretical. At the same time, it has fighting applications.

Boxing on the other, is directly applicable to full contact competition or martial use. The caveat is captured in my girl boxing challenge video in which one, the girls, had to devote themselves to the entire program. The nutrition, the conditioning, the basic striking drills, wash, rinse, repeat, in showing up @ the gym to do the routines.

Boxing, it is very straightforward to grasp the idea, and see the end results. But it too is a fooler, as glancing at the many articles or threads on boxing @ TSF and YT... you soon should realize there is a lot of theory too in getting it right. Sparring without the theory down is what most boxing outfits seem to do... certainly MMA for the most part. With lackluster results. Some of the pro gym examples are very impressive... and it shows the kind of devotion & dedication it takes to truly excel @ boxing.

 

[Sanserif]

Stanclarker,

We are all white belts are we not in the pursuit of knowledge? If orne fancies himself to be a master, one has the danger of being so full that one cannot empty ones cup to learn from.even a child along the way (to paraphrase Bruce Lee's words).

I responded politely and respectfully to you to request for a more civil tone but you continue to respond at the level that you choose to do.so in. Of course we all have agendas becaus that comes form our points of view and beliefs but we do not need to make things personal and disparage others.

Instead of merely commenting on the issues in a dispassionate way, you seem to enjoy making things personal.

I think your understanding and appreciation of martial arts is clearly more evident from the tone of your words themselves than even from what you are saying...

So I see your'e a white belt. May I suggest more full contact for you then?
No need to accuse me of being a shill for mma. No one is paying me to post these things. Our comments should never be personal and we should treat each other honourably - is this not what your judo teaches you?

If the shoe fits, wear it.
I think your posting has an agenda, as does mine. Differences of opinion bother you?[/QUOTE]

 

[StanClarker]

Yes judo does impart self discipline and resilience but only of it actually works combatively. Otherwise it is no better than learning lightsaber combat - good exercise but utterly fantastical and fictitious in nature.

This has been repeated a jillion times, BTW.

And judo works combatively because it is trained with combative elements in mind in the form of its randori which is the reason why judo succeeded at the expense of traditional jujitsu that had neglected randori. This is not my interpretation- this is what judoka themselves assert.

Judo works 'cause it's designed to work.

And I thought Jiu Jitsu worked for centuries in Japan... anyhow I guess you're trying to define good kung fu as sparring fu. The OP constantly shows himself sparring so theres' the underlying theme of the thread, I guess.

So long.

 

[Noodles03]

Am I the only one that get mental fatigue from reading these long post?

 

[Sanserif]

I did not watch that fight but if namajunas was defeated by superior wrestling of her opponent, that only shows that she needs to improve her own wrestling and counter wrestling and that her boxing game needs to be adapted and integrated with anti take down defence to be able to better fight a more skilled wrestler. In other words combatively adapt to meet the combative challenge of an opponent and thus to improve.

It is also ironic you use this example of wrestling given that wrestlers obtain their great physical endurance and skill from not just drilling but continuous live sparring on the mat.

Certainly the established members here have some real striking chops. Thread starter... I posted a video with him and he shows real accomplishment & polish. Purportedly, he says his sparring & competition lead him to that point. No doubt in my mind.

But success in one's own field doesn't define another. I think you have to be careful about comparing apples with oranges... say Judo w wrestling perhaps the best or one of the best comparisons. Wrestling is driven by striking for comparative physical strength for a certain size class (like MMA), which then physically driven strength techniques are applied. MMA example, Andrade's famous fight upsetting slam of Namajunas. That's a great MMA match with competitive skills on both sides (as opposed to the usual "lets bang").

As to actual fighting, I sit up and take notice because physically I'm more akin to Rose, and I might be facing a stronger physical wrestler inside or outside Judo class who may attempt the same wrestling philosophy overall on me. And Andrade's wrestling is very, very effective we can all agree on that. Now Rose has all the sparring practice in the world, both from her TKD (is ti) days and from her early full contact MMA sparring MMA (@ Roufus was it), to her latest home (@ 303 is it) with the more polished boxing style. The style that destroyed the extremely long win streak of Jedrzejczyk who baths in the glory of sparring Muay Thai & MMA with very long competition track records in both.

So, my friend, there is something much more than sparring and full contact. And that is true skills, as Rose learned her 'elite' MMA boxing wasn't sufficient to defend against the stronger, skilled wrestler. The result, as devastating loss which could have resulted in permanent serious injury.

 

[Sanserif]

Yet despite me repeating myself you ever seem to.be unable to get over your false dichotomy between learning proper technique and randori...

Judo works because they exercise whatever they learn full force on the mat. Jujitsu certainly worked in the beginning when it was used on the battlefield by samurai aa a last ditch defence when they lost their swords or in 19th century japan by police against criminal elements. But again you are talking about people who used the art combatively on a regular basis and who would have had some level of sparring inherent in their approach sonas to acquire their skill.

This has been repeated a jillion times, BTW.


Judo works 'cause it's designed to work.

And I thought Jiu Jitsu worked for centuries in Japan... anyhow I guess you're trying to define good kung fu as sparring fu. The OP constantly shows himself sparring so theres' the underlying theme of the thread, I guess.

So long.

 

[Sanserif]

Am I the only one that get mental fatigue from reading these long post?

I am sorry for that. I do think however that a reply to a post should be written as carefully and respectfully as one can, which I have tried to do above.

 

[Frode Falch]

I am sorry for that. I do think however that a reply to a post should be written as carefully and respectfully as one can, which I have tried to do above.

I dont think that was ment for you. Kung fu is deep into my heart and soul. So keep posting.

But you need a better filter. A filter to knowing what posters and persons you dont need to listen to. Or answer to.

Trying to discuss anything serious with stanclaker is a waste of your time and energy.

 

[Noodles03]

I am sorry for that. I do think however that a reply to a post should be written as carefully and respectfully as one can, which I have tried to do above.

No worries. I'm just used to reading books with giant pictures.