The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[TheMaster]

For the record, complete Wing Chun is not designed for sports and contains many elements not compatible with a sporting context. The vast majority who do it do not train with this in mind and cross training and full sparring is not common.
However, this is not an excuse as many in that community like to hold to......

It has been a long road, but we are seeing gradually more WC guys compete. It can be adapted and used as a base standup style in mma or BKFC type fights.
We have seen aspects of it being used as documented by Tony Fergusson and Anderson Silva (esp vs Bisping), and of course the famous WC 'oblique kick'. Fergusson in particular with his close range telephone box style is very Wing Chun.

So let us analayze using collective standup knowledge and opinions on the strengths/weaknesses of Wing Chun as a standup base and how it can be trained or incorporate other elements to increase combat effectiveness in this environment.

- Note if u want to just trash on WC, or have no experience or knowledge of it and are just negatively opinionated, go now and save the trouble of posting here.
If on the other hand u have a legit opinion and know enough about standup arts or WC to contribute to discussion, please do so.

A rare example:

Wing Chun vs Lethwei fighter



Rules limit it, but I would love to see more WC guys training and conditioning themselves to compete in Lethwei type bouts, the art can definitely grow in some areas through this type of combat testing.

 

[Hatake88]

In your opinion, what techniques does Wing Chun have that MT/kickboxing/boxing doesn't have and which are applicable in a cage setting?

I agree with concepts like attacking the centreline but, even though its not stated explicitly in boxing/kickboxing/MT, isn't this already covered by techniques like the jab or teep? Same thing with hand trapping - is parrying or pulling down your opponent's gloves already a form of that?

I don't personally practice Wing Chun but from the videos I've seen the techniques focuses on a lot on speed - so much so that a lot of the techniques don't seem to utilise much rotation/rest of the body. While this may be effective in a self defence situation where an untrained person will likely become overwhelmed (for example, by the rapid chain punching in the video), I think a trained competitor will be confident enough in their defence they will just wait until the Wing Chun competitor gasses.

Also, from what I have seen, Wing Chun doesn't seem to have a solution to a lot of things - for example, what happens if a person slips and pivots (thus taking their body off the centre line) to avoid the chain punches? What defence does a Wing Chun practitioner have against foot sweeps (this is a very common strategy against aggressive punchers)? What happens when the other person doesn't react the way techniques are drilled during Wing Chun - for example, if someone decides to clinch or respond with a long knee when you try to use chi-sau rather than immediately throw their other hand into the mix?

 

[Woldog]

For the record, complete Wing Chun is not designed for sports and contains many elements not compatible with a sporting context. The vast majority who do it do not train with this in mind and cross training and full sparring is not common.
However, this is not an excuse as many in that community like to hold to......

It has been a long road, but we are seeing gradually more WC guys compete. It can be adapted and used as a base standup style in mma or BKFC type fights.
We have seen aspects of it being used as documented by Tony Fergusson and Anderson Silva (esp vs Bisping), and of course the famous WC 'oblique kick'. Fergusson in particular with his close range telephone box style is very Wing Chun.

So let us analayze using collective standup knowledge and opinions on the strengths/weaknesses of Wing Chun as a standup base and how it can be trained or incorporate other elements to increase combat effectiveness in this environment.

- Note if u want to just trash on WC, or have no experience or knowledge of it and are just negatively opinionated, go now and save the trouble of posting here.
If on the other hand u have a legit opinion and know enough about standup arts or WC to contribute to discussion, please do so.

A rare example:

Wing Chun vs Lethwei fighter



Rules limit it, but I would love to see more WC guys training and conditioning themselves to compete in Lethwei type bouts, the art can definitely grow in some areas through this type of combat testing.

Was it the WC fighter that got his ass handed to him?

 

[DoctorTaco]

In mma the only real application is in ground and pound. It works on the feet, but I don’t think it’s really a primary skill set like boxing or Muay Thai, it’s more to supplement those other arts

 

[shincheckin]

I am going to challenge the validity of that video. How do we know the guy labeled lethwei is an actual lethwei fighter?

The guy labeled Lethwei, does not look Burmese at all. More like chinese. His style of fighting does not look burmese, hes not wearing "burmese" shorts. The fight/gym location also does not look like its in Burma, more like china. This video looks like a chinese kickboxer incorrectly labeled a lethwei fighter.

 

[Woldog]

I am going to challenge the validity of that video. How do we know the guy labeled lethwei is an actual lethwei fighter?

The guy labeled Lethwei, does not look Burmese at all. More like chinese. His style of fighting does not look burmese, hes not wearing "burmese" shorts. The fight/gym location also does not look like its in Burma, more like china. This video looks like a chinese kickboxer incorrectly labeled a lethwei fighter.

Doesn't have a forehead for headbutts either lmao

 

[TheMaster]

In your opinion, what techniques does Wing Chun have that MT/kickboxing/boxing doesn't have and which are applicable in a cage setting?

I agree with concepts like attacking the centreline but, even though its not stated explicitly in boxing/kickboxing/MT, isn't this already covered by techniques like the jab or teep? Same thing with hand trapping - is parrying or pulling down your opponent's gloves already a form of that?

You highlight alot of points so I'll address only some here.
Yes, parrying and pushing down an arm is a form of basic trapping.
I would say MT and old time boxers use this the most. WC however takes it further by training close range sensitivity (chi sau) to make it reflexive at the very close range which is not really found in MT.
The style is built around parrying and controlling the opponents hands as a mode of operating so the emphasis is much more.

You can understand now the WC 'Mun Sau' position (inquisitive hand). It is basically a feeler and range finder as well as allowing for parrying and trapping. In practice you don't have to hold it in the centre either but use it flexibly.





Whenever I see Cornier fight esp first Stipe fight I was thinking it was a lot like some WC tactics and approach with a similarity to the so called 'crab guard' in boxing.
The aim is to control the range and intercept or control the hands and counter which should generally be a safer option ('bridging' as it is called in WC).

 

[DoctorTaco]

I am going to challenge the validity of that video. How do we know the guy labeled lethwei is an actual lethwei fighter?

The guy labeled Lethwei, does not look Burmese at all. More like chinese. His style of fighting does not look burmese, hes not wearing "burmese" shorts. The fight/gym location also does not look like its in Burma, more like china. This video looks like a chinese kickboxer incorrectly labeled a lethwei fighter.

Get out of here with this logic and basic reasoning. This is the internet, let’s continue to believe everything we read

 

[shincheckin]

Get out of here with this logic and basic reasoning. This is the internet, let’s continue to believe everything we read

its funny dude cause it doesnt take much to confuse the average "murican" when it comes to asians and different nationalities. The majority of americans are unable to distinguish a thai, from a japanese, from a Filipino etc. Most dont realize theres more than just chinese and japanese. I had MMA guys at the gym think Manny Pacquiao was thai in the build up to him vs mayweather.

Point being, label a chinese as a thai, put him in some muay thai shorts, let him fight another chinese, with a chinese ref, with an entire chinese crowd, and no one will know the difference lol

 

[eternaldarkness]

Get out of here with this logic and basic reasoning. This is the internet, let’s continue to believe everything we read

Unless it comes from professional coaches...

 

[DoctorTaco]

Unless it comes from professional coaches...

touche

 

[StanClarker]

Wing Chun vs FRICKEN Lethwei fighter, Man, Lethwei, man. Oh NO!

 

[Twelvepack]

I hate that channel. The guy talking sounds like a nerd who hasn't trained a day in his life. And why is that ring the size of my mattress

 

[Hatake88]

You highlight alot of points so I'll address only some here.
Yes, parrying and pushing down an arm is a form of basic trapping.
I would say MT and old time boxers use this the most. WC however takes it further by training close range sensitivity (chi sau) to make it reflexive at the very close range which is not really found in MT.

Chi Sau-like techniques probably weren't developed at a very close range because of the clinch in MT and dirty boxing in boxing. Why would anyone choose to slap their opponent when they can knee or uppercut them instead?

The style is built around parrying and controlling the opponents hands as a mode of operating so the emphasis is much more.

From a mechanical POV, how is this favourable to pre-existing combat sports? I.e. why would someone choose to practise this when there are already other options?

You can understand now the WC 'Mun Sau' position (inquisitive hand). It is basically a feeler and range finder as well as allowing for parrying and trapping. In practice you don't have to hold it in the centre either but use it flexibly.

Admittingly, I've only watched half the vid but, once again, I don't understand how the technique shown is superior to what is already being practised in a MMA-context.

Things that stuck out to me include:

• hands being held way too low.
• not having a solution to overhands/kicks or any kind of movement (for example pivoting/slipping).

Whenever I see Cornier fight esp first Stipe fight I was thinking it was a lot like some WC tactics and approach with a similarity to the so called 'crab guard' in boxing.
The aim is to control the range and intercept or control the hands and counter which should generally be a safer option ('bridging' as it is called in WC).

DC does not do Wing Chun. To me, this kinda emphasises the point I've been trying to make - if boxing/MT already covers the techniques most applicable in a MMA setting...then what is the benefit of WC? Why would someone do WC over boxing/MT?

 

[StanClarker]

Chi Sau-like techniques probably weren't developed at a very close range because of the clinch in MT and dirty boxing in boxing. Why would anyone choose to slap their opponent when they can knee or uppercut them instead?

This is what happens when an MMA/boxing forum attempts to get its' hands (head) about complicated kung fu stuff.

Talks boxing.

 

[Hatake88]

Ok so where have I gotten it wrong?

 

[StanClarker]

Why not

Ok so where have I gotten it wrong?

reply for starters....

 

[StanClarker]

Admittingly, I've only watched half the vid but, once again, I don't understand how the technique shown is superior to what is already being practised in a MMA-context.

Things that stuck out to me include:

• hands being held way too low.
• not having a solution to overhands/kicks or any kind of movement (for example pivoting/slipping).

I put up a video of Floyd M. trouncing Tenshin N. Floyd demonstrates

• hands up guard, expertly done.
• masterful footwork, for handling over hands / pivots, slipping.

This is boxing lingo about boxing. Wing chun is not boxing. Wing chun TSF pretends it has a handle on when it catches cold every time a karate video is posted.

 

[StanClarker]

Ok so where have I gotten it wrong?

TSF keeps attempting to bring Wing chun into a boxing / MMA forum; just like it brought Ida Portal into train Conor. Then take a look at Conor's footwork in his heated fights. It stinks.

This put martial art styles into a blender can easily become a joke. Why? Because certain arts are very difficult to master. I found many examples of BJJ / Judo practitioners saying Judo was too much for many BJJ'rs. I believe it after the welcome I got here.

 

[StanClarker]

The road to wing chun applied to combat sports is the same road for Judo applied to combat sports. Learn Judo.