Was Randy Couture right?

[jericksen5]

...when he said submissions will disappear from MMA within the next 10 years? When i think about it, he might be right. With the new generation of MMA fighters starting out learning everything, it makes sense that they will be learning only defensive bjj, and how to get position, neglecting submissions. it takes 10+ years to get a black belt, i think this new generation will learn only how to defend, and we will see a resurgence of the striking arts. Is this trend already becoming apparent with Anderson Silva and Crocop? I hope randy is wrong, theres nothing more exciting then watching a top fighter go to sleep, what do you guys think?

 

[colinm]

no, he's wrong. everybody knows boxing, does that mean no one gets KO'd anymore? nope. there will still be a disparity in skill level.

and BTW, didn't randy's boy chris leben get choked the fuck out last UFC? better keep training that jits.

 

[IQwrestler]

I hope he's wrong. There are submissions in top level grappling, such as adcc where most of the competitors are black belts with amazing bjj both offensive and defensive and there are a lot of subs, it's different from mma but guys like aoki and roger and jacare who are starting mma will always be able to submit anyone and strikers won't be able to develop such a defense to counter the top level grappler's offense

 

[jericksen5]

I hope he's wrong. There are submissions in top level grappling, such as adcc where most of the competitors are black belts with amazing bjj both offensive and defensive and there are a lot of subs, it's different from mma but guys like aoki and roger and jacare who are starting mma will always be able to submit anyone and strikers won't be able to develop such a defense to counter the top level grappler's offense

as the striking gets better than chuck and cc, you dont think the top level grapplers will just get stuffed and ko'ed? im on your side, but i can see where randy is coming from here.

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

Under Randy's logic, you would never see any submissions at the higher levels (i.e. ADCC and Mundials). I mean afterall... all you need to learn is how to defend right? But as we all know, submissions are still happening left and right at the higher levels. There's no reason to believe that they will disappear from MMA.

 

[L.I.N.E**]

no, he's wrong. everybody knows boxing, does that mean no one gets KO'd anymore? nope. there will still be a disparity in skill level.

and BTW, didn't randy's boy chris leben get choked the fuck out last UFC? better keep training that jits.

I'm pretty sure Randy has a better eye for what's happening in the sport. No offense, but I'd be more apt to heed his opinions seeing as how he's the one who see's first hand what is going down in the gyms where the pro's workout.

His "boy" did get CTFO though huh!? Good times.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

I think less submissions will happen, but they'll never disappear

 

[jericksen5]

Under Randy's logic, you would never see any submissions at the higher levels (i.e. ADCC and Mundials). I mean afterall... all you need to learn is how to defend right? But as we all know, submissions are still happening left and right at the higher levels. There's no reason to believe that they will disappear from MMA.

he wasnt talkin gabout grappling, he was talking about MMA. will the top grapplers be able to compete in MMA against guys that have trained to defend subs and have top level striking?

 

[IQwrestler]

as the striking gets better than chuck and cc, you dont think the top level grapplers will just get stuffed and ko'ed? im on your side, but i can see where randy is coming from here.

Yeah, but most of the fights at one point or another do hit the mat no matter how good the strikers TD is. I like Randy a lot and obviously he knows a lot more about mma than me but does he also think that if the grapplers learn how to defend standing there will no longer be ko's? I mean there are less stoppages in boxing where a match lasts 36 mins than in sub wrestling (adcc) where the match lasts 10 mins(or the finals 20 mins +overtime but that's still less than a boxing match)

 

[Darkslide632]

I don't think it will disappear completely, but we're already seeing a shift.

I have been grappling for over 10 years now and the reality is that it is easier to see and defend against submissions that it is to defend against strikes. So saying that everyone knows how to box (Which in itself is a bullshit statement) but that we still see KO's and that it will be the same for submission is an ignorant statement.

As I have said, we're already seeing a shift away from submissions in MMA right now, I think the trend will continue. Not to say submissions will never happen, but I think it will become more and more rare. You don't even have to be well versed on the ground to keep a submission from happening, you just need to be able to stop people from taking you to the ground. Which is one of the reasons that it is easier to defend against subs in my opinion. There are just too many things that can go wrong with them. That's not really the case with strikes. Basically the only requirement is that you be in range... so unless you plan on running away all night...

 

[jericksen5]

I don't think it will disappear completely, but we're already seeing a shift.

I have been grappling for over 10 years now and the reality is that it is easier to see and defend against submissions that it is to defend against strikes. So saying that everyone knows how to box (Which in itself is a bullshit statement) but that we still see KO's and that it will be the same for submission is an ignorant statement.

As I have said, we're already seeing a shift away from submissions in MMA right now, I think the trend will continue. Not to say submissions will never happen, but I think it will become more and more rare. You don't even have to be well versed on the ground to keep a submission from happening, you just need to be able to stop people from taking you to the ground. Which is one of the reasons that it is easier to defend against subs in my opinion. There are just too many things that can go wrong with them. That's not really the case with strikes. Basically the only requirement is that you be in range... so unless you plan on running away all night...

this is what i saw in randy's statement, but you worded it much better. i love grappling, ill be doing bjj till my bones give out, but i think the trend in mma shows a shift away from it.

 

[Kozma]

We will see the need to be even more well rounded. You can only get so good at defending subs when you need to learn striking, wrestling, and whatever ever other arts you need.

 

[triso]

I honestly don't know how things will evolve years from now.

I think currently when you have a fighter with a high level of either striking or submission, then the difference in skill becomes VERY clear and they can usually dominate in that particular area of the MMA fight.

You could see the difference in striking skill immediately with Silva and Leben.
You could see the difference in submission skill immediately when Florian put Kit Cope on the mat and broke his arm and choked him.

It's all about finding your opponents weakness and exploiting it. Due to the large skillset you need to compete in MMA, I think there will always be fighters better in one aspect of MMA then the other, which means there will still be submissions IMO.

 

[knoxpk]

they wont ever stop but for a time they may be less frequent therefore (ppl are lazy , trust me in this) ppl will begin to neglect grappling again...even if it IS for the slightest bit. When that happens subs will explode again.

There is only so much time in a day and when things need to get shaved off your schedule the 1st thing to go will be the thing you use the least.

In another 5 years that very well may be subs...but 5 years after that the sub guys will dominate again and thus the cycle we are seeing now will come full circle.

 

[KenTheWalrus]

If anything, I see subs becoming cyclical instead of outright disappearing. In this scenario fighters will start to train sub defense less as sub victories become less frequent or at least fighters won't concentrate solely on sub defense. Enter the submission master who trains subs more than anything and in this environment he is an anomaly. Now you have a guy who trains subs much more frequently than his competition is training sub defense. And if there is anything I've learned at all about subs it's that the ones that tend to be sunk in are the ones I never saw coming. Superior skill and results will bring submissions back. -ken

 

[colinm]

I'm pretty sure Randy has a better eye for what's happening in the sport. No offense, but I'd be more apt to heed his opinions seeing as how he's the one who see's first hand what is going down in the gyms where the pro's workout.

His "boy" did get CTFO though huh!? Good times.

watching leben lose is always good times.

and obviously randy is FAR more qualified to talk MMA than everyone on the board, but i still think he's wrong.

 

[KenTheWalrus]

they wont ever stop but for a time they may be less frequent therefore (ppl are lazy , trust me in this) ppl will begin to neglect grappling again...even if it IS for the slightest bit. When that happens subs will explode again.

There is only so much time in a day and when things need to get shaved off your schedule the 1st thing to go will be the thing you use the least.

In another 5 years that very well may be subs...but 5 years after that the sub guys will dominate again and thus the cycle we are seeing now will come full circle.

I need to learn to type faster. I Agree 100% with you. -ken

 

[franz_grinder]

I think it'll be cyclical. The strikers like A. Silva, Cro cop and Lidell will force the grapplers to find new and inventive ways to drive a fighter into the ground and quickly submit him.

The actual application of Martial Arts has evolved more in the last 10 years than the last 1000 years. I highly doubt we've mastered all the applicable grappling techniques to MMA.

Top fighters like Barnett and Nog will birth new fighters of the same pedigree. Whether it be through direct or indirect influence.

If it really ends up as Randy says than I'll gladly watch all zst events over and over again.

 

[franz_grinder]

If anything, I see subs becoming cyclical instead of outright disappearing. In this scenario fighters will start to train sub defense less as sub victories become less frequent or at least fighters won't concentrate solely on sub defense. Enter the submission master who trains subs more than anything and in this environment he is an anomaly. Now you have a guy who trains subs much more frequently than his competition is training sub defense. And if there is anything I've learned at all about subs it's that the ones that tend to be sunk in are the ones I never saw coming. Superior skill and results will bring submissions back. -ken

Wow I was typing stuff along the same lines.

 

[devante]

he may be right-because most people in mma are grapplers/wrestlers and they don't respect standup, they don't learn how to really box or kickbox or muay that. Alot of them learn a version of it modified for mma; an the guys they train w/are not the best in the nation much less in the world.

while all the strikers are training w/bjj blkblts, mundial champs, national champs, olympians, brazillian, european, canadian wrestling/judoka/bjj/sambo champs. So they are learning how to counter/def/escape takedowns from the best or some of the best in their country and in some cases the world.

not just that but the strikers learn how to apply subs/takedowns/throws against lower tier grapplers-u see strikers like edwards sub mishima and def subs/takedowns from serra a top notch blkblt... Cro cop has def takedowns fron sak, nog, barnett, he tapped randleman....(which is tough for a striker)

grapplers don't learn or understand the stanup game-they fall back on their ability to apply their grappling... example hughes v pierre-he could not check a leg kick for christ sakes

strikers are learning the grappling game-completely, not focusing on one thing and assuming that makes them prepared for mma. They learn the entire game, knowing that is wht it will take for them to be competitive and bring their standup to bear.


everyone works w/the best wrestlers/grapplers-noone works w/the best standup guys and that is why they have the holes in their game...the area noone really focuses on. An its not just learning how to strike its understanding the timing/angles/range/footwork and philosophies so that u learn how to correctly setup or complete the takedown when facing a guy who is capable at def subs/takedowns and applying standup.

if that was the case- then tito would not have shot so far out, or he would have understood that the best way to land a takedown is the same way to land a ko, in an exchange. When an opp is in an exchange they are more open to a shoot/throw/trip. If tito knew or really got striking he would have saw through chucks strategy of potshotting and using footwork and angles to stay away so tito cant set his feet or gauge the dist to shoot/close.

the strikers know ur game and philosophies and strategies and tech-they are training w/the best grappling instructors/competitios and preparing for the worst case scenarios; the grapplers arent doing that, they assume they will get it/keep it or finish on the ground. They still learn to strike to setup takedowns, an a real strikers recognizes when ur not commiting ot just srtting up the takedown..which makes it easier to def the takedown..an makes the grappler a target.