Was Randy Couture right?

[letsgotribe9]

Well, to talk about evolution, even in fighting, it takes many years for something to evolve into something else. Scary thing is, I think exactly the same way as Randy.

 

[dirtroller]

if you can tap a Jiu-jitsu guy you will probably tap a mma guy no matter what

 

[Rinksterk**]

I think in the future, we won't see BJJers, wrestlers, boxers, or kickboxers, we will see Mixed Martial Artists. We will see everything there is to see. Submissions won't disappear, KOs won't disappear, and takedowns won't disappear.

 

[colinm]

No they fucking dont.

i mean they put on some fucking gloves and knock around a heavy bag, don't read so far into it.

 

[Ali Baba]

A lot of wrestlers such as Hammerhouse and Lindland are resentful of BJJ and Randy might be one of them. Quite surprising coming from Randy after two of his boys just got submitted by a Gracie Barra fighter and he himself stalled Jacare to a draw. The funny thing is, its wrestling not submissions that's disappearing from MMA. Strikers have learned to defend a wrestler's shoots and the days of wrestlers dominating such Coleman, Kerr, Couture, and Ortiz are over. I think what we will see in the future is a shift towards judo-style takedowns in MMA since those are much harder to defend than single and double legs. In that sense, Karo Parisyan might just be 4-5 years ahead of his time.

 

[TheWall07]

As fighters start to focus on defending the ground game, other will work at overpowering them. We saw this progression from the early days of the UFC. Gracie JJ was the best. Others started to learn it and BJJ got bigger. Then people started learning takedown defense. etc. etc. Point is, as the sport evolves, there will still be a balance between striking and submitting. Submissions will always be a part of the sport, its just a matter of how their applied.

 

[yoder]

. Strikers have learned to defend a wrestler's shoots and the days of wrestlers dominating such Coleman, Kerr, Couture, and Ortiz are over. I think what we will see in the future is a shift towards judo-style takedowns in MMA since those are much harder to defend than single and double legs. In that sense, Karo Parisyan might just be 4-5 years ahead of his time.

not all wrestling. i think that you will start to see less effectiveness of freestyle wrestling due to the sprawl defense that EVERY striker has to have in thier arsenal. not to say that the single and doubles will completely disappear, but with fighting from the clench becoming so prevalent due to muy thai, the standing throws from greco roman wrestling become more successful. it also compliments the strong points of judo also. the cool thing about karo is that he puts into perspective the usefulness of the art to american mma fighters.

back to the original debate, nothing sucks more than when a fighter wins by submission and then apologizes to the crowd because there wasn't a ko. it goes hand in hand with the expanding audience for mma though. it takes people a long time to understand what is actually happening in a fight that goes to the ground nevermind to truly appreciate the skill and technique. the average uninformed TUF viewer still thinks of mma as a 'no holds barred' styled bloodsport, and they want to see someone get knocked the fuck out.

even though orginazations try to make rules that encourage fast, 'exciting' fights, there will always be fighters who go out looking for submissions. aoki just won a fight with a fucking gogoplata! i was flipping out watching that fight, even though TUF-ers would have no clue what to make of the rubber gaurd. there is no way in hell aoki is going to apologise for submitting someone. there will always be submission fighters, just like there will always be knockout artists...

 

[sha]

I think one of the factor is that everybody is learning the ground game, but not that well. Now everybody is average at everything, which means that the wrestlers and strikers now how to defend subs from someone who's done 3 years of BJJ. However, if you put a Shaolin or Aoki in front of them, I believe they'll still get subbed.

 

[knoxpk]

A lot of wrestlers such as Hammerhouse and Lindland are resentful of BJJ and Randy might be one of them. Quite surprising coming from Randy after two of his boys just got submitted by a Gracie Barra fighter and he himself stalled Jacare to a draw. The funny thing is, its wrestling not submissions that's disappearing from MMA. Strikers have learned to defend a wrestler's shoots and the days of wrestlers dominating such Coleman, Kerr, Couture, and Ortiz are over. I think what we will see in the future is a shift towards judo-style takedowns in MMA since those are much harder to defend than single and double legs. In that sense, Karo Parisyan might just be 4-5 years ahead of his time.

I dont think this is very well thought out post.
!st off the ppl who have the best takedowns in the game ARE wrestlers and judoka. By comparison a "sub grappler" or BJJ'r has very weak takedowns.

Now if you cannot get taken down by a wrestler how can a sub grappler hope to?
I respect your opinion but IF Henderson cannot take you down to GnP you how is Lister going to take you down to sub you?

Just a thought.

Also you mentioned that defending the dbl and single is the easiest thing to do BUT you fail to consider that collegiate wrestlers have been practicing TD's and TD defense for YEARS and at the HIGHEST level yet every college dual meet one wrestler IS taking another wrestler down without the threat of kicks or punches. If it were that simple to defend then all wrestling matches would be draws and the sport would have died long ago!

 

[NastyKimura]

The skills will drop, but they won't disappear. There will always be BJJ black belts in MMA. So no.

 

[Soid]

No he's not right.

 

[ich1ban]

I agree with Randy's theory.

As you know a lot of people compare MMA/BJJ to a chess match. In the past in Chess, there were more checkmates than there is now. Most of the time now in Chess it's draws. I think the same thing will happen in the future in MMA.

 

[Foolkiller]

I think grappling will evolve as fighters evolve. See Aoki vs Hansen.

 

[letsgotribe9]

I think grappling will evolve as fighters evolve. See Aoki vs Hansen.

For those who haven't seen...
Superbeast: No full fight linking. This is your first and only warning.

 

[MuayThaiBJJGuy]

Very stupid assumption on Randy's part.

 

[Ranger]

He makes a good point. I don't totally agree but do anticipate the majority of all MMA fights ending with GnP.

 

[Ali Baba]

I dont think this is very well thought out post.
!st off the ppl who have the best takedowns in the game ARE wrestlers and judoka. By comparison a "sub grappler" or BJJ'r has very weak takedowns.

Now if you cannot get taken down by a wrestler how can a sub grappler hope to?
I respect your opinion but IF Henderson cannot take you down to GnP you how is Lister going to take you down to sub you?

Just a thought.

Its true that wrestlers and judo guys have the best takedowns but grapplers in MMA have better than average takedowns than pure BJJers since they train in all phases of the game. In the future, grapplers will be more well-versed in takedowns.

Also you mentioned that defending the dbl and single is the easiest thing to do BUT you fail to consider that collegiate wrestlers have been practicing TD's and TD defense for YEARS and at the HIGHEST level yet every college dual meet one wrestler IS taking another wrestler down without the threat of kicks or punches. If it were that simple to defend then all wrestling matches would be draws and the sport would have died long ago!

Nowhere did I say its the easiest thing to do. What I said is throws from the clinch are much harder to defend than single and double legs. And I don't believe you necessarily have to be a D1 collegiate wrestler to defend them in MMA. CroCop is a striker and he stuffed every single one of Mark Coleman's takedowns. He couldn't take down Fedor either till the 2nd round in their last fight. And Coleman was an NCAA champion. Forrest Griffen trained to sprawl with Couture for the Ortiz fight and did a pretty good job of defending Tito's takedowns. John Alessio is basically a kickboxer and made Diego look silly stuffing TD after TD.

So my point is, single and double leg TD defenses can be trained for by non-wrestlers and used effectively in MMA. In MMA it is possible to beat someone at their own game even if they are better than you in that regard. That's why top strikers get KOed by non-strikers and BJJ blackbelts can get subbed by blues and purples.

 

[Oktavius**]

Did Randy actually say that? If so its very rediculous, unles there are major rule changes to further favour strikers the status quo will remian. Just sore the the first gogoplata ive seen in mma on Hansen who is a purple.
Trigg had never even seen the sub before and called it a triangle.

There will always be a superior grappler in the fight and fighters will always fall to the ground during striking.

 

[shazaam]

I don't think it will disappear completely, but we're already seeing a shift.

I have been grappling for over 10 years now and the reality is that it is easier to see and defend against submissions that it is to defend against strikes. So saying that everyone knows how to box (Which in itself is a bullshit statement) but that we still see KO's and that it will be the same for submission is an ignorant statement.

As I have said, we're already seeing a shift away from submissions in MMA right now, I think the trend will continue. Not to say submissions will never happen, but I think it will become more and more rare. You don't even have to be well versed on the ground to keep a submission from happening, you just need to be able to stop people from taking you to the ground. Which is one of the reasons that it is easier to defend against subs in my opinion. There are just too many things that can go wrong with them. That's not really the case with strikes. Basically the only requirement is that you be in range... so unless you plan on running away all night...

My problem with you using the recent shift away from submissions (mostly in the UFC) is this: You're got a big honking third variable lurking in some really dark waters. The current typical UFC fan does not care much for the ground game. This situation has improved vastly in the last year, but it's still bad enough to the point where we're seeing new MMA rulesets that are basically San Shou matches with 4 ounce gloves and maybe an occasional flying submission. What we're seeing is Ultimate Boxing. Fighters are trying to "give the fans a show" by standing around and slugging it out instead of playing to their strengths, even if their strengths happen to be a boring, methodical ground game.

Oh, and just so we don't get all doom and gloom about submissions, 2006 saw the first ever heavy use of rubber guard in MMA AND A MOTHERFUCKING GOGOPLATA in Pride. Better competition begets better competition, and with the money finally falling into place, we're going to be seeing a lot more talent in the ring/cage. There are always going to be high-level submissions guys in MMA. Sure, the number will cycle around a little based on current training trends, what the fans like to see, and what the organizations are using for rules, but there will always be submissions experts.

I think Couture might have a little personal bias in his statement. First and foremost, he's a wrestler. He's been one longer than he hasn't been one. It's a part of him. It makes sense to him for people to train submissions defenses more than submissions (I think a telling example of this was his pro grappling match with Jacare), and that's probably how he trains his guys. Not everyone feels that way, and they'll train their guys differently.

Regardless, it's fun to sit around and bullshit about the future when it looks so bright these days.

 

[Big Eck]

I don't think it'll be gone. I just think the more well rounded fighters who do both (striking/grappling) effectively such as GSP and Fedor will dominate MMA.