What made Samart Payakaroon so successful?

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah, as far as I know, Samart is super orthodox, he just has higher level understanding and reflexes. But TBF, Samart is really baffling to watch because he does nothing out of the ordinary, yet his appanyents tend to look like amateurs, even if top-tier.

I think an intresting comparaison is Somrak. I personally think that he is on the same tier as Samart. But in Somrack's case it looks different. You can tell that Somrak's secret is simply that he sees you moving in slow-motion. That's it. So IMO even if he also figures out what you are going to do before you know it, he is also in another dimension in terms of reaction time. You just can't touch him.

Samart is untouchabe not so much because of his reflexes (which are also top-tier of course), but because of his intelligence. It's as if he has some algorithm in his head that tells him exactly where to be at a given split second and 10 moves in advance.

Both guys are absolutely amazing to watch. Once in a lifetime GOATS, semi-Gods amongst mortals.

Completely agree.

Also, there wasn't this massive gulf between Samart and his peers like the Lawrence Kenshin's of the web would have you believe - I fully believe Samart is the best of all time (I don't know enough about Wicharnoi) but as you say Somrak, another phenomenal fighter in of himself. Dieselnoi is probably actually the best, but people like to discredit him for being tall etc. etc.

Samart just does simple things really well - and honestly that's what all the greatest muay thai fighters do

 

[StopDucking]

Completely agree.

Also, there wasn't this massive gulf between Samart and his peers like the Lawrence Kenshin's of the web would have you believe - I fully believe Samart is the best of all time (I don't know enough about Wicharnoi) but as you say Somrak, another phenomenal fighter in of himself. Dieselnoi is probably actually the best, but people like to discredit him for being tall etc. etc.

Samart just does simple things really well - and honestly that's what all the greatest muay thai fighters do

Dieselnoi is the most unbeatable and it's not close. He literally toyed with Samart, not that he was head and shoulders above above Samart technically but his size was just unfair.

If we're strictly talking about skills, I got Samart and Somrak tied for first with Saenchai and Oley on a slightly lower tier. Not sure where Wicharnoi and Apidej rank as I don't know much about them.

 

[shincheckin]

Interesting point. That being said, but please correct if I am wrong, what does Samart do that isn't textbook? I could be wrong but I don't remember him doing anything out of the ordinary.

What sets him apart as a GOAT IMO is his god tier ring IQ, understanding of distance and timing as well as reflexes.

I'd say his boxing style head movement, not wrong, but definitely adding what was uniquely his own, from his boxing experience. Its obvious the way he moves and how elusive he is there's a obvious boxing background. Hit and not get hit....vs MT which is more like block and hit back. There's head movement in MT, but it's not the same as boxing. Everybody is already aware of the dangers of doing so, ducking into knees, slipping into a head kick, etc.

Adding what is uniquely your own doesn't mean you need to break rules although people that do are the easiest examples. Saenchai doesn't break rules but added what is uniquely his own such as using muay boran techniques

But it's just doing your own thing your way. Everything we learn are tools, give me and you the same paint brush, well both paint something different.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Dieselnoi is the most unbeatable and it's not close. He literally toyed with Samart, not that he was head and shoulders above above Samart technically but his size was just unfair.

If we're strictly talking about skills, I got Samart and Somrak tied for first with Saenchai and Oley on a slightly lower tier. Not sure where Wicharnoi and Apidej rank as I don't know much about them.

Shit I almost brought Olay into the conversation too. But I am not familiar enough and I think he may be slightly lacking offensively though.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I'd say his boxing style head movement, not wrong, but definitely adding what was uniquely his own, from his boxing experience. Its obvious the way he moves and how elusive he is there's a obvious boxing background. Hit and not get hit....vs MT which is more like block and hit back. There's head movement in MT, but it's not the same as boxing. Everybody is already aware of the dangers of doing so, ducking into knees, slipping into a head kick, etc.

Adding what is uniquely your own doesn't mean you need to break rules although people that do are the easiest examples. Saenchai doesn't break rules but added what is uniquely his own such as using muay boran techniques

But it's just doing your own thing your way. Everything we learn are tools, give me and you the same paint brush, well both paint something different.

I have to disagree with you on Saenchai. What makes him crazy good is mostly attribute based. Reflexes, extremely flexible hips and very mobile feet and legs. The shit he pulls that is exotic is not what he really relies on when he is challenged, which as far as I know, did not happen outside of stadiums so much.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Dieselnoi is the most unbeatable and it's not close. He literally toyed with Samart, not that he was head and shoulders above above Samart technically but his size was just unfair.

If we're strictly talking about skills, I got Samart and Somrak tied for first with Saenchai and Oley on a slightly lower tier. Not sure where Wicharnoi and Apidej rank as I don't know much about them.

Interesting anecdote about that fight, apparently they both royally phoned it in because they're both friends and didn't want to fight 'for real'

 

[StopDucking]

I'd say his boxing style head movement, not wrong, but definitely adding what was uniquely his own, from his boxing experience. Its obvious the way he moves and how elusive he is there's a obvious boxing background. Hit and not get hit....vs MT which is more like block and hit back. There's head movement in MT, but it's not the same as boxing. Everybody is already aware of the dangers of doing so, ducking into knees, slipping into a head kick, etc.

Adding what is uniquely your own doesn't mean you need to break rules although people that do are the easiest examples. Saenchai doesn't break rules but added what is uniquely his own such as using muay boran techniques

But it's just doing your own thing your way. Everything we learn are tools, give me and you the same paint brush, well both paint something different.

The version of Samart that came back to muay thai after his boxing run was past it and never won a title again. Prime, 4x Lumpinee champion Samart was pretty textbook:

 

[Lucas Coradini]

eThere are many other examples of guys in thailand sparring much lighter because they have got to fight again in three weeks. Whether or not the intensity of his sparring was a factor in his success is I believe an open question.

I'm not sure I understand your point, but thais always spar hard when it's hands/boxing work. You can find footage of Saenchai and Buakaw "playing" boxing but that's just them goofing around. I'd even say the intensity shown in the Samart/Sagat video you posted is below how thais typically work their hands.

If what you said didn't have anything to do with what I just said I apologize <45>

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I'm not sure I understand your point, but thais always spar hard when it's hands/boxing work. You can find footage of Saenchai and Buakaw "playing" boxing but that's just them goofing around. I'd even say the intensity shown in the Samart/Sagat video you posted is below how thais typically work their hands.

If what you said didn't have anything to do with what I just said I apologize <45>

I think people misunderstand Thai sparring and think that light means soft - they hit each other pretty hard - they just don't let it become a fight

 

[Lucas Coradini]

From what I've seen about thais sparring when they're working hands it's basically a war of attrition. Big gloves and bombs away...

It may be that it's more conditioning work for blocking head shots and absorbing body shots, but it doesn't look much like the Sagat & Samart video.

I remember Leo Amendoim (Yoksutai) saying something about this

 

[Lucas Coradini]

But about the thread, I've seen Samart trainer from when he returned to MT from boxing saying his best attribute were his eyes, meaning his ability to see and recognize strikes and patterns and anticipating, I guess

 

[Stuart0502]

I'm not sure I understand your point, but thais always spar hard when it's hands/boxing work. You can find footage of Saenchai and Buakaw "playing" boxing but that's just them goofing around. I'd even say the intensity shown in the Samart/Sagat video you posted is below how thais typically work their hands.

If what you said didn't have anything to do with what I just said I apologize <45>

That is true actually, they do seem to go significantly harder when sparring hands only;





I had heard online so many times that the thai's spar light I was unaware they would also do this training.

 

[Stuart0502]

The version of Samart that came back to muay thai after his boxing run was past it

That's not true at all. I suspect you are confusing the version of Samart from 1993 - 1994 with the version of Samart from 1988 - 1989 and blending them together.

He was razor sharp when he first came back to Muay Thai. He was a shell when he took a hiatus for an acting/singing career

Panomtuanlek was a former fighter of the year;

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/thailand-fighter-of-the-year-history.2485877/



Jareonthong Kiatbanchong was a three time Lumpinee stadium champion;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroenthong_Kiatbanchong



I don't see how you can do much better than knocking out two multiple time major stadium champions in the first round without taking any damage.

He also beat Namphon in the 1988 - 1989 timeframe who was another multiple time stadium champion and bigger than him.

The only fight he's on record as losing in the 1988-1989 timeframe is against Wangjannoi who was rated by Siam boxing magazine as the fighter of the decade for the 1990's and even there it was only really his conditioning that let him down, he was clearly ahead early.

 

[StopDucking]

That's not true at all. I suspect you are confusing the version of Samart from 1993 - 1994 with the version of Samart from 1988 - 1989 and blending them together.

He was razor sharp when he first came back to Muay Thai. He was a shell when he took a hiatus for an acting/singing career

Panomtuanlek was a former fighter of the year;

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/thailand-fighter-of-the-year-history.2485877/



Jareonthong Kiatbanchong was a three time Lumpinee stadium champion;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroenthong_Kiatbanchong



I don't see how you can do much better than knocking out two multiple time major stadium champions in the first round without taking any damage.

He also beat Namphon in the 1988 - 1989 timeframe who was another multiple time stadium champion and bigger than him.

The only fight he's on record as losing in the 1988-1989 timeframe is against Wangjannoi who was rated by Siam boxing magazine as the fighter of the decade for the 1990's and even there it was only really his conditioning that let him down, he was clearly ahead early.

The reason I don't consider 1988-89 Samart prime Samart because he never won a title again but you're right, saying he was past it was unfair.

The Hapalang and Jareonthong fights are funny as Samart showed great hands but terrible kicks. His first and third fight with Nampon are among my favorites.

 

[Stuart0502]

The reason I don't consider 1988-89 Samart prime Samart because he never won a title again but you're right, saying he was past it was unfair.

The Hapalang and Jareonthong fights are funny as Samart showed great hands but terrible kicks. His first and third fight with Nampon are among my favorites.

Well it's a slightly debatable issue as to when his prime was.

Personally I think there has been some folklore attached to the pre boxing version of Samart.

One thing I thought the 1988 - 1989 version of Samart had going for him was that his movement was slightly more efficient than it appeared in the two pre boxing fights that are available on youtube.



Looking at the above gif he's bouncing on the sport, his movement looks great but it looked great in the 1988 - 1989 timeframe whilst potentially being more economical.

 

[StopDucking]

Well it's a slightly debatable issue as to when his prime was.

Personally I think there has been some folklore attached to the pre boxing version of Samart.

One thing I thought the 1988 - 1989 version of Samart had going for him was that his movement was slightly more efficient than it appeared in the two pre boxing fights that are available on youtube.



Looking at the above gif he's bouncing on the sport, his movement looks great but it looked great in the 1988 - 1989 timeframe whilst potentially being more economical.

Samart's footwork against Dielselnoi is different from the way he usually fights. When you're fighting an opponent who's 6-inches taller than you, not bouncing around isn't an option. Gabriel Varga just released a video explaining it:



If you watch Samart's fight with Wattana, there was no wasted movement. This is the best version of Samart I've ever seen:

 

[Stuart0502]

Interesting anecdote about that fight, apparently they both royally phoned it in because they're both friends and didn't want to fight 'for real'

According to this interview it might have started out like that but ended up being more like the opposite - Diesel Noi's cornerman who was a mafia hitman threatened to have him whacked between rounds.

"Talking to Dieselnoi today I asked him if he was afraid. He said he was, as Mr. Kuang, had killed people before. Dieselnoi's ultimate boss was one of the biggest mafia bosses in Thailand, and Mr. Kuang ran the Thanikul gym for him, as I understand. It's hard to grasp the absolute intensity of having your life threatened for not going hard enough, when going back to the corner in the Fight of the Year, and having to fight your very good friend. This is the kind of man Dieselnoi is, he walked that line."

https://www.patreon.com/posts/33459405

 

[Luke Calvert]

It may or may not be a coincidence that those guys also competed in boxing at a high level.

It's true that a lot of guys dipped their toes in the water, there are also guys who dropped out of muay thai early and focused solely on boxing but there are also guys like Kaoklai who have a 1-6 pro boxing record.

On the topic of the thread title, one thing that sticks out about Samart's preparation is you can find footage of him sparring like this with high level guys;



There are many other examples of guys in thailand sparring much lighter because they have got to fight again in three weeks. Whether or not the intensity of his sparring was a factor in his success is I believe an open question.

Great footage of samart, back in the day of vhs tapes, i like his boxing style. i'm starting to incorporate stuff from samart into my game.

 

[Equilibrium2021]

He's a better boxer than 99% of todays boxers.

That helps.

 

[Equilibrium2021]

Is It true he only trained pure boxing for 2 or 3 years before becoming boxing champ?