Who’s the best or most well rounded athlete…

[Deleted member 512089]

2. It requires all aspects of athleticism. Yes there is cardio for the record, for sure. But great to exceptional acceleration, speed, change of direction, reaction time, jumping ability, physicality and strength (relative to size).

Not it doesn't. We have three energy systems in the body that represents "all aspects of athleticism" and NFL only use two. The ATP–CP energy system which is max effort in very short bursts and the anaerobic glycolysis energy system which is high effort on a 20 to 110 seconds period. But they absolutely do not use rh aerobic energy system which is low intensity on a long period because they have like a thousand breaks during a game so a million commercial tv spots can be played.

You may dislike but it's science. They do not use cardio in the context of the aerobic system and it's a pretty damn important system for an athlete.

Honestly i am under the impression that focus only on vertical jump, bench press, dash etc.. which are important measurements of athleticism of course - please note that i agree wholeheartedly with you on that before dismissing my argument - but you seem to give absolutely no consideration at all in low intensity long duration cardio and even to despise it as you do not quote it one time during your argumentation, which shows it has no importance to you for evaluating atheticism maybe ? That's honestly the vibe i am feeling.

Rugby players, Basketball players and even tennis men to a degree are way more well rounded athletes than american football players in that whole context (the 3 systems), while american football players are better than them in explosive events. Again i am not diminishing the athleticism of american football players, they are indeed great athletes and I respect that, but i am noting that they are less well complete and more specialized than the others i've quoted and that is due to the very nature of their sport and its rules.

If you think i'm wrong tell me which american football player came to another sport with low skill and high atheticism requirements (which is part of your argument) and dominated it ?

I will just simplify this discussion with the following question : if we gave to a top american football player, a top rugby player and a top basketball player an athletic test consisting of :

- A max 1RM benchpress
- A vertical box jump
- Max number of burpees in 3 minutes
- A 5000 meters run

With each event give 3 points to the 1th, 2 to the 2nd and 1 to the 3rd. Who do you think will come 1st, 2nd and 3rd ?

 

[No Skill Gap]

Ok, I edited before you responded to add 100mts too. We could add 200 and 400, although I'm sure they would beat plenty of guys. Not sure taking a charity event and comparing it to a guy actually competing in 100mts is an equivalent comparison, but fair enough. Those marathon runners would fuck anybody in the NFL roster at anything above 600mts for sure. So they're not running "extremely slow at extremely long distances" and that's it. They're running extremely fast at medium and long distances. That was the point of it. They are exceptionally gifted athletes at anything but the shortest distances. I don't think it's just some pointless athletic achievement. That would be the same as saying a jumper is not athletic because high or long jumping is niche. Elite running ability above 100-400mts is not "niche", seems a bit arbitrary to make that distinction.

Would you say Nate Diaz or Colby Covington are extremely athletic because of their pace in the cage, or have great cardio?

At a certain point that is my problem with calling running athletic, when it becomes a mile even, or 3k, or 5k+. Does that really carryover athletically to other sports? Is that athletic? Or is that just a niche ability some humans have and train for.

To me it's the opposite side of the same coin for maximal strength at that point. Then we have to count powerlifters as contributing to athleticism and being great athletes. Just because it's not arbitrarily an olympic sport doesn't justify omitting it.

I was using the word niche in regards to the extreme of the trait itself. If lab created Athlete X could deadlift 735 pounds or run a 4:33 mile, which is more athletic?

And I think it's accurate to say we've been approaching the question of "athleticism" this entire time, in this entire thread, without really giving any weight to strength and size. Size certainly matters. It's not that impressive for a 170lb guy to run a 4.6 "forty" (again 36.57M), but it's god tier amazing for a 300lb guy to run that speed. So at what point does being a 115lb man factor into distance running and cardio, and at what point does strength matter at all in this discussion? Both to me (powerlifting, long distance running/cardio) are end of the spectrum traits.

edit: Also when the question is about athleticism, where would the long distance runners excel in anything but long distance and maybe medium distance running? They would be obliterated in any other a

 

[No Skill Gap]

Where have I been dishonest?

When you said I was narrowing the discussion down to two sports after we've exhaustively and autistically debated this, which is a comical level strawman after all I've said. I didn't "narrow" this down to only NFL/NBA ever. I simply have constantly argued and imo proved that the highest concentration of top athletes are in these two sports.

It's all good though let's start fresh, O'Canada my home and native land! But for real, all good on my end I'm done writing walls of text now.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

At a certain point that is my problem with calling running athletic, when it becomes a mile even, or 3k, or 5k+. Does that really carryover athletically to other sports? Is that athletic? Or is that just a niche ability some humans have and train for.

uh wait ? you're saying running 5k or more at a world level pace isn't athletic ? That it's not even atheticism basically ? Ok i guess i wasted my time here. Boy.

 

[vision1]

When you said I was narrowing the discussion down to two sports after we've exhaustively and autistically debated this, which is a comical level strawman after all I've said. I didn't "narrow" this down to only NFL/NBA ever. I simply have constantly argued and imo proved that the highest concentration of top athletes are in these two sports.

It's all good though let's start fresh, O'Canada my home and native land! But for real, all good on my end I'm done writing walls of text now.

I don' think you understand what I've been trying to say all along. Perhaps I haven't understood you either.
There are great athletes in all sports. The fact that the NFL has faster athletes than other sports does not necessarily make them better athletes unless speed is the number one factor when measuring athleticism, which it is for you. Being good at running long distances is no more niche than being good at running short distances. Way more people in the world train their long distance running vs short distance running. I, like you, prefer to train the latter.
Happy to end it. Offer still stands for the best athlete competition.

 

[Volador]

Would you say Nate Diaz or Colby Covington are extremely athletic because of their pace in the cage, or have great cardio?

Colby yes, for sure, I think he's a great athlete, very impressive. I think Nate's cardio is a bit of a myth haha. He's slow and plodding and relies on toughness. It's more like he gets his ass beat for 2 or 3 rounds before rallying, lol.

At a certain point that is my problem with calling running athletic, when it becomes a mile even, or 3k, or 5k+. Does that really carryover athletically to other sports? Is that athletic? Or is that just a niche ability some humans have and train for.

How does absolutely elite running ability not translate to other sports? Imagine being able to exert yourself close to your top speed for 2 hours with literally 0 breaks, like not even passing the ball and taking a breather, and having that top speed itself be pretty decent. Can't see how it can't be viewed as athletic. 1 mile is literally 4' of exertion for these guys. Which sport has matches that don't even go 3 minutes? Wrestling?

To me it's the opposite same of the same coin for maximal strength at that point. Then we have to count powerlifters as contributing to athleticism and being great athletes. Just because it's not arbitrarily an olympic sport doesn't justify omitting it.

I wouldn't omit it. Maybe they're not well rounded, but the elite are incredibly impressive to me anyway. Elite Olympic weightlifters and shot putters would violate a lot of people in a combine type of event with some minimal training as well.

I was using the word niche in regards to the extreme of the trait itself. If lab created Athlete X could deadlift 735 pounds or run a 4:33 mile, which is more athletic?

There's no objective answer to this.

at what point does being a 115lb man factor into distance running and cardio, and at what point does strength matter at all in this discussion? Both to me (powerlifting, long distance running/cardio) are end of the spectrum traits.

It factors in when you're setting world records lol. Yes, some sports are more specialized than others and some sports require athletes to be more well rounded because of the nature of the sport, I agree with that. But long distance runners fuck anyone at any distance except it's under 400mts or so. I also don't agree that because you chose a sport that relies on a specific aspect then you're not athletic or aren't displaying athleticism.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Not it doesn't. We have three energy systems in the body that represents "all aspects of athleticism" and NFL only use two. The ATP–CP energy system which is max effort in very short bursts and the anaerobic glycolysis energy system which is high effort on a 20 to 110 seconds period. But they absolutely do not use rh aerobic energy system which is low intensity on a long period because they have like a thousand breaks during a game so a million commercial tv spots can be played.

You may dislike but it's science. They do not use cardio in the context of the aerobic system and it's a pretty damn important system for an athlete.

Honestly i am under the impression that focus only on vertical jump, bench press, dash etc.. which are important measurements of athleticism of course - please note that i agree wholeheartedly with you on that before dismissing my argument - but you seem to give absolutely no consideration at all in low intensity long duration cardio and even to despise it as you do not quote it one time during your argumentation, which shows it has no importance to you for evaluating atheticism maybe ? That's honestly the vibe i am feeling.

Rugby players, Basketball players and even tennis men to a degree are way more well rounded athletes than american football players in that whole context (the 3 systems), while american football players are better than them in explosive events. Again i am not diminishing the athleticism of american football players, they are indeed great athletes and I respect that, but i am noting that they are less well complete and more specialized than the others i've quoted and that is due to the very nature of their sport and its rules.

If you think i'm wrong tell me which american football player came to another sport with low skill and high atheticism requirements (which is part of your argument) and dominated it ?

I will just simplify this discussion with the following question : if we gave to a top american football player, a top rugby player and a top basketball player an athletic test consisting of :

- A max 1RM benchpress
- A vertical box jump
- Max number of burpees in 3 minutes
- A 5000 meters run

With each event give 3 points to the 1th, 2 to the 2nd and 1 to the 3rd. Who do you think will come 1st, 2nd and 3rd ?

Again I just don't agree with the whole "NFL players aren't well rounded athletes" point. I think that's just either ignorance or propaganda basically from people who like other sports more.

To be honest with you I don't like the "events" you selected here. I think the bench press is kind of a shit event and almost everyone who analyzes prospects in the NFL thinks so, NBA for fucking sure (Durant 0 reps with 185lbs).

There's problems with these exercises/tests:

- How relevant is a 5k meter run, basically zero relevance to any sport (besides distance running, distance-endurance niche sports)
- How relevant is a 1rm bench press? not relevant to many sports, relevant in part to specific positions in ones that are.
- Max burpees per minute just screams crossfit to me, idk what it proves. Is that muscular endurance? Not really. It's just another cardio test that makes you use a bit of muscle like a 30% push up effort every rep
- Vertical jump is fine, but no idea what box means...usually people use the swiper test.

I'm not an expert on athletic testing here either but, a big problem is that everything is linear here. Where is any lateral movement, any change of direction, any agility? Some people (like DK Metcalf ironically) are very fucking good at running in a straight line and have amazing physical traits on top of that, but suck dick at agility testing, can't cut or change direction well to poorly. I'm just not sure if a 3.1 mile run and getting good times on it is relevant at all either, much like a 1rm bench or max reps with 155 or 185 or 225. Those tests just don't matter much? imo.

I'm not trying to write walls of text but you ask for examples. I mean...Deion Sanders player pro baseball and won a world series, Bo Jackson was an all-star in baseball, Greg Hardy (lol but once a pro bowler) is now a UFC fighter, low tier football washouts have become MMA fighters (i.e. Shawn Jordan, Tony Ferguson sort of, Dom Reyes, OSP),

Kind of hard to transition as a pro to another sport where guys trained the skills of that sport their entire lives to make it past 99.9% of others to go pro. What other sports can you find examples of that? What NBA players transitioned to the NFL? MLB? At QB a few, outside of that...none I can think of. You know Nate Ebner was a special teamer only, not even good enough to pretty much ever see defensive snaps at safety for the Patriots, yet he was on the olympic rugby 7s team for the US.

Also you realize tons of NFL players played multiple sports in HS and college...like Randy Moss played with Jason Williams in basketball and numerous QBs were drafted in the MLB like Elway, Brady, Murray, Aikman, etc.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Colby yes, for sure, I think he's a great athlete, very impressive. I think Nate's cardio is a bit of a myth haha. He's slow and plodding and relies on toughness. It's more like he gets his ass beat for 2 or 3 rounds before rallying, lol.



How does absolutely elite running ability not translate to other sports? Imagine being able to exert yourself close to your top speed for 2 hours with literally 0 breaks, like not even passing the ball and taking a breather, and having that top speed itself be pretty decent. Can't see how it can't be viewed as athletic. 1 mile is literally 4' of exertion for these guys. Which sport has matches that don't even go 3 minutes? Wrestling?
cause you chose a sport that relies on a specific aspect then you're not athletic or aren't displaying athleticism.

1. I agree I think Colby is a decent to good athlete, D1 wrestler. Kind of ruins my point, but my point being that cardio freaks are lauded for having...good cardio. Not for being great athletes. When you think of great athletes you think of Michael Chandler, perhaps Jose Aldo, GSP, Jon Jones, Ngannou, Figgy probably.

So just the usage and definition of "Athleticism" is based on the traits I'm being said to favor. I think cardio can be considered part of athleticism, but again...yeah to point two.

2. I don't think it does translate as much as you're insinuating. It's impressive, it's on some level an "athletic feat" obviously, but is am I going to call Hicham el Guerrouj, Mo Farrah, and Eluid Kopchage amazing athletes and epitome's of what athleticism is? Not at all.

Again, I think it's tough to give so much credit "athletically" to something so niche. Yes the long-distance guys are going to absolutely skull-fuck anyone in a 3k, 5k, 10k, whatever event. Of course. But that means they're displaying awesome feats of athleticism?

So why isn't deadlifting 900lbs an equally amazing feat of athleticism. It's certainly physical using the human body, it's strength the opposite end of the spectrum. I realize you are willing to give credit to that potentially. But you also note they are not well-rounded. Well, I don't think Mo Farrah or Hicham whatevero-j are remotely close to well rounded either. I can't stress enough I see it as equal opposites on an end of a spectrum, it's literal and obvious. One is max strength, one is ~max endurance/cardio.

And I just don't see it translating nearly as cleanly as it theoretically would. Do you think Mo Farrah could gain 10-20lbs and just put on a fucking TORRID pace at flyweight? I don't think he can just max sprint pace like you said if the distance is somehow shorter, I don't think it just translates like this. I'm not even talking about energy systems and grappling yet either. But sure his cardio would certainly be amazing we'd think...I just don't think it's necessarily an athletic transfer from running 3000M at a very fucking fast "pace" but in reality

Also, why aren't we criticizing the negatives of distance runners like many willingly do to max strength athletes? As in: https://www.topendsports.com/events/summer/science/athletics-marathon.htm

Only two guys who medaled in the Marathon were over 150lbs. One was 6'2, 170 in fucking 1912. The other was 6' 159lbs in 1952. Every other medalist in this event has been sub 150lbs and pretty much 5'5-5'7. So even by the lightest division in the UFC to compare to, these guys would get fucking worked just in terms of strength and physicality. So can marathon dudes and 5-10k dudes keep these same levels of pace and excellence if they gain size strength? Much like a powerlifter sacrificing cardio and agility/speed (many times) by getting huge and not caring about it.

To mirror your question, which sports involve a torrid or high pace of relatively slow running or activity (yes even 15mph is slow and that's Farah's 1 mile pace) for a long time? I can't think of any but specific endurance sports. Even Boxing/MMA which might be the most relevant in this regard, no one is ever going max pace for 15 mins let alone 25 mins. Never happens. It's impossible to happen by nature of each sport. (sorry another wall)

 

[No Skill Gap]

uh wait ? you're saying running 5k or more at a world level pace isn't athletic ? That it's not even atheticism basically ? Ok i guess i wasted my time here. Boy.

Ok, you continue to think 3 minute burpees and 5k or greater distance runs are indicators of athleticism.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

Ok, you continue to think 3 minute burpees and 5k or greater distance runs are indicators of athleticism.

Please, be honest and fair. Jou're accusing people of being dishonest but that's exactly what you are doing here. You're trying to make me pass for someone who says that atheticism=cardio while on the 4 events i proposed two were max effort/strength/explosiveness. Quote all the event i mentionned, don't cherry pick. I said let's test :

- Max Bench Press : for testing the ATP-CP system (max intensity/shortest time) and upper body strength
- Vertical Jump : for testing ATP-CP system and explosiveness for lower body
- Max burpees in 3 mn : to test the glycolysis system (high intensity/short to medium time) with a full body movement. You can replace it with medecine ball slams or throws or sledgehammer tire hits.
- 5k run : to test the aerobic system (low intensity/high duration)

it's just a quick test i put together under a minute. is it perfect ? No of course it was just an example for God's sake. But yes it gives us a measurement of a well rounded athlete because it tests the 3 energy systems for upper and lower body which means it tests all-around athletic performance.

But hey i'm talking to someone that thinks that athleticism is limited to a Vertical jump or a 50m dash and that running any distance superior to one mile isn't a demonstration of athleticism so what did i even expect.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

Ok, you continue to think 3 minute burpees and 5k or greater distance runs are indicators of athleticism.

Not only it was cherry picking what I said to give it bad spin which is very dishonest, but even with all that spin your statement is still utterly ridiculous. Of course having a good 5K run time is a proof of some degree of athleticism. I mean seriously you can't be that dense.

 

[vision1]

Not only it was cherry picking what I said to give it bad spin which is very dishonest, but even with all that spin your statement is still utterly ridiculous. Of course having a good 5K run time in a proof of some degree of athleticism. I mean seriously you can't be that dense.

No point arguing with the guy, he doesn’t know what the word athleticism means.

 

[Volador]

1. I agree I think Colby is a decent to good athlete, D1 wrestler. Kind of ruins my point, but my point being that cardio freaks are lauded for having...good cardio. Not for being great athletes. When you think of great athletes you think of Michael Chandler, perhaps Jose Aldo, GSP, Jon Jones, Ngannou, Figgy probably.

Funnily enough part of what made GSP amazingwas that he never tired. Not exactly known as a power puncher. Similar with Khabib, Mayweather or Colby. Endurance is one of the things that makes them great.

So just the usage and definition of "Athleticism" is based on the traits I'm being said to favor.

That's your definition, not "the" definition. It's biased towards power based sports, which is fine, but it's a personal view.

Again, I think it's tough to give so much credit "athletically" to something so niche. Yes the long-distance guys are going to absolutely skull-fuck anyone in a 3k, 5k, 10k, whatever event. Of course. But that means they're displaying awesome feats of athleticism?

Pretty sure that in Ethiopia, Kenya and Jamaica running events mean more than NFL achievements. No one cares about the NFL outside the US and maybe parts of Mexico. What they do is just as exceptional as what Usain Bolt does really, they belong to the 99.9999999 percentile.

So why isn't deadlifting 900lbs an equally amazing feat of athleticism.

I wouldn't argue that it isn't. Strongman isn't as popular as the NFL or NBA or soccer, but that doesn't mean much to me personally.

And I just don't see it translating nearly as cleanly as it theoretically would. Do you think Mo Farrah could gain 10-20lbs and just put on a fucking TORRID pace at flyweight?

Maybe, maybe not. It's a different sport. Do you think he suddenly would suck and have no cardio because he gained 10lbs? Last time I checked Greg Hardy didn't do so hot at MMA.

So even by the lightest division in the UFC to compare to, these guys would get fucking worked just in terms of strength and physicality.

Probably, yes, but I'm not sure this means anything. They specialize in running just like fighters specialize in fighting and lifters in lifting, just appreciate that for what it is.

To mirror your question, which sports involve a torrid or high pace of relatively slow running or activity (yes even 15mph is slow and that's Farah's 1 mile pace) for a long time?

So a sub 4' mile is slow... ok, lol.

Tennis and soccer have much more in common with a mixed medium/long distance event with isolated sprints (which is what these guys do, they're still sprinting in sections) than with a 100mts event. A lot of soccer and tennis players are pretty skinny and small (not all of them). Not a lot of 300lbs 6'5" players. A soccer game is 90+ minutes, and many tennis matches are 3 hours+. Pretty popular sports.

Last time I checked Tour de France was a pretty big deal. I think Michael Phelps is pretty impressive too, do you find him gimmicky because he swims? Pretty sure the NY marathon is a massive event, winning it gets you on TV everywhere. People care about it. Not to mention that track and field is an important sport in itself. Being able to win medals at 3k, 5k, 10k and marathon is important to these countries. If the only thing that mattered was the transference to NFL and NBA, then no one matters except guys that are 6'5'+ or 250lbs+. The reality is that NFL is in itself a niche sport. No one cares about the NFL outside the USA. So of course Ethiopians will look like marathoners, that's what they excel at and care about. Just because you don't personally care, doesn't make it less of an athletic feat.

I agree with the point about well-roundedness. Some NFL guys are impressive at many things, especially strength and power. They could probably run a decent mile, while the marathoners probably couldn't bench press for shit. But you don't value endurance and mid distances, that doesn't mean they aren't valuable, I think you sell them too short. I also think Crossfit champions are more well rounded than most NBA athletes. Not sure that means anything.

 

[MatterOverMind]

DK Metcalf looks like a fucking giant compared to those guys he was running against. I would assume that is a really amazing 100m time for someone that weighs as much as he does, impressive.

Agreed. That was the best part of this thread.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Please, be honest and fair. Jou're accusing people of being dishonest but that's exactly what you are doing here. You're trying to make me pass for someone who says that atheticism=cardio while on the 4 events i proposed two were max effort/strength/explosiveness. Quote all the event i mentionned, don't cherry pick. I said let's test :

- Max Bench Press : for testing the ATP-CP system (max intensity/shortest time) and upper body strength
- Vertical Jump : for testing ATP-CP system and explosiveness for lower body
- Max burpees in 3 mn : to test the glycolysis system (high intensity/short to medium time) with a full body movement. You can replace it with medecine ball slams or throws or sledgehammer tire hits.
- 5k run : to test the aerobic system (low intensity/high duration)

it's just a quick test i put together under a minute. is it perfect ? No of course it was just an example for God's sake. But yes it gives us a measurement of a well rounded athlete because it tests the 3 energy systems for upper and lower body which means it tests all-around athletic performance.

But hey i'm talking to someone that thinks that athleticism is limited to a Vertical jump or a 50m dash and that running any distance superior to one mile isn't a demonstration of athleticism so what did i even expect.

i have always liked 3 min burpees and a 5k

 

[wufabufa]

Joey Chestnut drinks everyone else's milkshake. Hot dogs, fried asparagus, chicken wings, mac n' cheese, this man doesn't give a fuck and takes on all comers. Going for 14 Nathan's Famous wins this year and he's already ahead of any other major league athlete.

Savage eye of the tiger while de-throning the previous champ:

Jaws is a bad motherfucker. Have you ever seen Molly Schuyler? She's a beast too but isn't under contract with Major League Eating. I think she's the one to take down Joey if she's ever able to jump ship and compete against him. The woman literally doesn't chew.



I don't ask for much in life, but I would love to see them face off at the Nathan's event.

 

[gspieler]

Joey Chestnut drinks everyone else's milkshake. Hot dogs, fried asparagus, chicken wings, mac n' cheese, this man don't give a fuck and takes on all comers. Going for 14 Nathan's Famous wins this year and he's already ahead of any other major league athlete.

Savage eye of the tiger while de-throning the previous champ:

Jaws is a bad motherfucker. Have you ever seen Molly Schuyler? She's a beast too but isn't under contract with Major League Eating. I think she's the one to take down Joey if she's ever able to jump ship and compete against him. The woman literally doesn't chew.



I don't ask for much in life, but I would love to see them face off at the Nathan's event.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Funnily enough part of what made GSP amazingwas that he never tired. Not exactly known as a power puncher. Similar with Khabib, Mayweather or Colby. Endurance is one of the things that makes them great.



That's your definition, not "the" definition. It's biased towards power based sports, which is fine, but it's a personal view.



Pretty sure that in Ethiopia, Kenya and Jamaica running events mean more than NFL achievements. No one cares about the NFL outside the US and maybe parts of Mexico. What they do is just as exceptional as what Usain Bolt does really, they belong to the 99.9999999 percentile.



I wouldn't argue that it isn't. Strongman isn't as popular as the NFL or NBA or soccer, but that doesn't mean much to me personally.



Maybe, maybe not. It's a different sport. Do you think he suddenly would suck and have no cardio because he gained 10lbs? Last time I checked Greg Hardy didn't do so hot at MMA.



Probably, yes, but I'm not sure this means anything. They specialize in running just like fighters specialize in fighting and lifters in lifting, just appreciate that for what it is.



So a sub 4' mile is slow... ok, lol.

Tennis and soccer have much more in common with a mixed medium/long distance event with isolated sprints (which is what these guys do, they're still sprinting in sections) than with a 100mts event. A lot of soccer and tennis players are pretty skinny and small (not all of them). Not a lot of 300lbs 6'5" players. A soccer game is 90+ minutes, and many tennis matches are 3 hours+. Pretty popular sports.

Last time I checked Tour de France was a pretty big deal. I think Michael Phelps is pretty impressive too, do you find him gimmicky because he swims? Pretty sure the NY marathon is a massive event, winning it gets you on TV everywhere. People care about it. Not to mention that track and field is an important sport in itself. Being able to win medals at 3k, 5k, 10k and marathon is important to these countries. If the only thing that mattered was the transference to NFL and NBA, then no one matters except guys that are 6'5'+ or 250lbs+. The reality is that NFL is in itself a niche sport. No one cares about the NFL outside the USA. So of course Ethiopians will look like marathoners, that's what they excel at and care about. Just because you don't personally care, doesn't make it less of an athletic feat.

I agree with the point about well-roundedness. Some NFL guys are impressive at many things, especially strength and power. You don't value endurance and mid distances, but that doesn't mean they aren't valuable, I think you sell them too short. I also think Crossfit champions are more well rounded than most NBA athletes. Not sure that means anything.

Okay I'm trying to stop writing walls of text here so, we can all agree that there is not concrete definition of "athleticism". But I've argued that the clear consensus definition is something akin to Bo Jackson, LeBron James, Mike Trout or on less all-time great examples - Jalen Ramsey, Tony Allen/Vince Carter, Byron Buxton/Dave Roberts. I'll toss some soccer players in like Mbappe', toss in any famous sprinter, etc.

I think it's safe to say that most people don't look at Mo Farah or any long distance running great or Eddie Hall or John Haack and say "wow that's an amazing athlete, pure athleticism". They look at that as someone who had god tier cardio and is amazing at long distance endurance running and someone who's retardedly strong. Two extreme ends of the spectrum that contribute to what makes athleticism and a great athlete, but neither are super important or carry over as much as traditional concepts (obviously sport specific).

This isn't an exercise in what I personally care about or you or anyone posting. This should be about what defines athleticism. Other countries don't care about the NFL, that is totally true. But it also doesn't fucking matter and doesn't just void the fact that the NFL is host to many top tier athletes.

If we want to now change the definition of athleticism to be "good at anything that is physical in nature at all" then we can consider swimming and marathon distance endurance running/cycling and more niche, out there things like olympic table tennis to be athletic feats where athleticism is a large component. Then for the 100th time, every strength sport is now fully an athletic event showing off top tier athleticism if we adhere to logic and reason.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Funnily enough part of what made GSP amazingwas that he never tired. Not exactly known as a power puncher. Similar with Khabib, Mayweather or Colby. Endurance is one of the things that makes them great.



That's your definition, not "the" definition. It's biased towards power based sports, which is fine, but it's a personal view.



Pretty sure that in Ethiopia, Kenya and Jamaica running events mean more than NFL achievements. No one cares about the NFL outside the US and maybe parts of Mexico. What they do is just as exceptional as what Usain Bolt does really, they belong to the 99.9999999 percentile.



I wouldn't argue that it isn't. Strongman isn't as popular as the NFL or NBA or soccer, but that doesn't mean much to me personally.



Maybe, maybe not. It's a different sport. Do you think he suddenly would suck and have no cardio because he gained 10lbs? Last time I checked Greg Hardy didn't do so hot at MMA.



Probably, yes, but I'm not sure this means anything. They specialize in running just like fighters specialize in fighting and lifters in lifting, just appreciate that for what it is.



So a sub 4' mile is slow... ok, lol.

Tennis and soccer have much more in common with a mixed medium/long distance event with isolated sprints (which is what these guys do, they're still sprinting in sections) than with a 100mts event. A lot of soccer and tennis players are pretty skinny and small (not all of them). Not a lot of 300lbs 6'5" players. A soccer game is 90+ minutes, and many tennis matches are 3 hours+. Pretty popular sports.

Last time I checked Tour de France was a pretty big deal. I think Michael Phelps is pretty impressive too, do you find him gimmicky because he swims? Pretty sure the NY marathon is a massive event, winning it gets you on TV everywhere. People care about it. Not to mention that track and field is an important sport in itself. Being able to win medals at 3k, 5k, 10k and marathon is important to these countries. If the only thing that mattered was the transference to NFL and NBA, then no one matters except guys that are 6'5'+ or 250lbs+. The reality is that NFL is in itself a niche sport. No one cares about the NFL outside the USA. So of course Ethiopians will look like marathoners, that's what they excel at and care about. Just because you don't personally care, doesn't make it less of an athletic feat.

I agree with the point about well-roundedness. Some NFL guys are impressive at many things, especially strength and power. You don't value endurance and mid distances, but that doesn't mean they aren't valuable, I think you sell them too short. I also think Crossfit champions are more well rounded than most NBA athletes. Not sure that means anything.

Chopped this into two posts to avoid raping this thread with more walls of text.

On the 4 minute mile thing...I'm not sure why you are so high on that. I totally agree the pace and cardio/endurance is super impressive, obviously. But the actual speed? That is 15 mph, that is not fast. And this is like the lowest endurance running event, the cutoff between medium distance running. Even a 2 mile, Farah has a similar pace which is insanely impressive, but again it's even slower than 15 mph.

To run 15 mph or obviously less is just not impressive athletically. That is not "fast". For visual evidence and reference:



This is 13 mph, which again is insanely fucking impressive to hold for 2 hours in a marathon was Kipchoge did. But to me, this isn't "athleticism", at this point it has become an extreme end (like powerlifting as a prime example I've contrasted it with 101 times), endurance/cardio. Not an act of superb athleticism. It's cardio. Again, an aspect and component of the entire pie, just as strength is therefore Powerlifting, which I see as kind of shit on compared to distance running comparatively, is.

What a powerlifter or distance runner does is fucking impressive. It clearly and undeniably is "athletic" on some level. But since when did people consider powerlifters superb athletes, since when was maximal strength lifting in niche formats a big part of athleticism. Why is this then being catered to extreme cardio/endurance niche sports? And yes Kenya cares because they're naturally good at it and it's a way for them to gain money/fame and leave a shithole country. I don't think the world, and obviously US, really gives a fuck about most niche olympic events, distance running included.

Cycling, distance running, powerlifting, strongman despite some push, weighlifting (which you think has better athletes and might), swimming...these are all niche sports that aren't big and barely anyone gives a fuck about if we're being honest. Obviously some do, but come on they are all clearly niche.

Yes when the Olympics roll around we'll hear about Katie Ledycki (spelling) or Phelps. No one gives a fuck about swimming for the other 3.5 to 3.9 years though. Tour De France is a big name, how many people watch and actually care? How many people cycle? I'm not trying to argue every point but ehh idk I think they are still clearly niche.

 

[maximus__]

The answer to your question is still Rugby. It encompasses everything that makes an NFL player great in terms of strength, explosive power and general athleticism and has requires an athlete to be highly conditioned to continuing playing for 80 mins with only one extended break. Players are required to be highly skilled and well rounded and all players are required to have some requisite ball handle skills. They also cross train in grappling style tactics to protect themselves in tackling and are required to get up and play the ball after they are tackled. Non of this stop start stuff in NFL with highly specialised teams.

Many NRL players excel at all the same tests used for high level American sports.The international version of the sport is a bit different but has an even greater cardio requirement.