Who is doing TRF?

[Samjj]

Thanks for the response.

I have been doing something like 18-6 for about a year, but it has been sloppy and many days I've had a small snack in the afternoon. Now I have shifted to strict TRF and am trying to manage 19-5 on weekdays. It does annoy my wife although she doesn't complain about it too much. I do agree that it gets reasonably easy to stick to a schedule once you tough out that schedule for a week or two and, as you say, reset your ghrelin response.

What I have found is that just that little snack is problematic. My body seems to remember even that small snack. I have been strict for about 2 or 3 weeks now and the afternoon-snack craving has vanished.

The other common challenge for people seems to be what they drink during the fast. I nurse a large coffee with a small amount of heavy cream (zero protein/carbs) over the course of the day. Coffee appears to raise ketones, even with some fat added, but that is a different can of worms.

Elevation of Ketones is a physiological response to fasting... that's good that you have that during your "not feeding" window.

 

[therealdope]

I still haven't figured out how to control eating while traveling for work. I'm pretty good If I'm in a place for a few days because I can find a grocery store and get my usual stuff (veggie juice, avocado, eggs and rice cakes) that I eat from noon to 4pm. THe problem is flying, meetings and other related bullshit while traveling.

This week was particularly brutal as I had all day meetings. THere was a breakfast buffet in the am and we were served a lunch (healthy) which was big. Now I need a 72 hr fast - LMAO!!

First world problems.

 

[esdoornblad]

I just read something about Valter Longo (who I do not pay attention to) saying TRF should be limited to 12:12 because shorter eating windows will give you gallstones. WTF? I generally do not take any diet information seriously unless it is reasonably backed up by at least a few legitimate journal articles. I think this is completely wrong. Gallstones are more likely in (a) morbidly obese people, (b) morbidly obese people who lose weight rapidly. I am fit, not obese, and my weight is stable. So what evidence is there that 18:6 TRF will give me gallstones?!?

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I just read something about Valter Longo (who I do not pay attention to) saying TRF should be limited to 12:12 because shorter eating windows will give you gallstones. WTF? I generally do not take any diet information seriously unless it is reasonably backed up by at least a few legitimate journal articles. I think this is completely wrong. Gallstones are more likely in (a) morbidly obese people, (b) morbidly obese people who lose weight rapidly. I am fit, not obese, and my weight is stable. So what evidence is there that 18:6 TRF will give me gallstones?!?

Maybe it will put you at greater risk of gallstones? We can't say with any certainty that it won't atm. There's not much evidence to suggest it will though, I recall Jason Fung being pretty dismissive about the suggestion. From memory I think there are a couple of studies from the 80s, one on young women, the other on post-op patients; have a Google around.
Did Dr Longo say what evidence he was basing his opinion on? He's done some good working on the longevity and immune system benefits (stem cell regeneration etc.) of a "fasting mimicking diet"; I don't think he's studied anything to do with gallstones himself though. I may be wrong re Longo's related work; however, rumoured increased gallstone risk did come up in my research but it didn't seem to have much substance to it.

 

[esdoornblad]

Maybe it will put you at greater risk of gallstones? We can't say with any certainty that it won't atm. There's not much evidence to suggest it will though, I recall Jason Fung being pretty dismissive about the suggestion. From memory I think there are a couple of studies from the 80s, one on young women, the other on post-op patients; have a Google around.
Did Dr Longo say what evidence he was basing his opinion on? He's done some good working on the longevity and immune system benefits (stem cell regeneration etc.) of a "fasting mimicking diet"; I don't think he's studied anything to do with gallstones himself though. I may be wrong re Longo's related work; however, rumoured increased gallstone risk did come up in my research but it didn't seem to have much substance to it.

Interesting that Jason Fung was dismissive. I have read and listened to some of his material (but basically zero from Longo). I am a physicist in real life and am afraid to say that even physicists, when they have been working in an area for a while, start believing their working hypotheses to be facts. As you say, the gallstone claim looks more like a working hypothesis from Longo for which there is no direct corroborating evidence. Maybe he is right (but I doubt it), but there is no evidence that I am aware of that supports this idea.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Interesting that Jason Fung was dismissive. I have read and listened to some of his material (but basically zero from Longo). I am a physicist in real life and am afraid to say that even physicists, when they have been working in an area for a while, start believing their working hypotheses to be facts. As you say, the gallstone claim looks more like a working hypothesis from Longo for which there is no direct corroborating evidence. Maybe he is right (but I doubt it), but there is no evidence that I am aware of that supports this idea.

A physicist? Cool, physics is one of my (very amateur) interests. What field?

Every 'expert'* struggles with WYSIATI (what you see is all there is); Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking Fast and Slow offers some great insight into this and other heuristics and cognitive biases.

*me included, I'm as fallible as the next man.

I like Karl Popper's approach to science e.g. the falsificationist principle.

I think Longo's looking at things from the perspective that 12-13 hours is almost definitely very safe, much longer and it's not quite as crystal clear so he recommends a fasting mimicking diet (which is his baby).
If anyone were concerned with gallstones on 18/6 (for example) they could always put some MCT oil into their morning coffee (bulletproof style); many of the benefits of fasting come from the omission of carbs and protein anyway. The cream in your morning coffee would likely illicit your gallbladder to release bile too.

Like you, I don't pay much heed to it atm, but keep an eye on IF related research.

 

[esdoornblad]

A physicist? Cool, physics is one of my (very amateur) interests. What field?

Every 'expert'* struggles with WYSIATI (what you see is all there is); Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking Fast and Slow offers some great insight into this and other heuristics and cognitive biases.

*me included, I'm as fallible as the next man.

I like Karl Popper's approach to science e.g. the falsificationist principle.

I think Longo's looking at things from the perspective that 12-13 hours is almost definitely very safe, much longer and it's not quite as crystal clear so he recommends a fasting mimicking diet (which is his baby).
If anyone were concerned with gallstones on 18/6 (for example) they could always put some MCT oil into their morning coffee (bulletproof style); many of the benefits of fasting come from the omission of carbs and protein anyway. The cream in your morning coffee would likely illicit your gallbladder to release bile too.

Like you, I don't pay much heed to it atm, but keep an eye on IF related research.

Thanks for the reply. It's nice to get some solid feedback on this! Ironic, maybe, that I have been viewing the heavy cream with coffee (common among TRFers) as a necessary evil. You are saying that this is enough to have a protective effect vis a vis bile production?

Theoretical plasma physics ... but I am 50+ so most of the work I do is project and group management.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Thanks for the reply. It's nice to get some solid feedback on this! Ironic, maybe, that I have been viewing the heavy cream with coffee (common among TRFers) as a necessary evil. You are saying that this is enough to have a protective effect vis a vis bile production?

Possibly? We don't have a firm grasp on what causes gallstones but if the hypothesis is that TRF causes bile to sit in the gallbladder for too long and 'thicken' then yes, having some fat (e.g. heavy cream) would cause the gallbladder to excrete bile and potentially mitigate the risk. There're lots of what-ifs though i.e. is there a heightened risk in the first place and is it due to bile sitting around; is a small amount of cream enough to make a difference etc.
This only occurred to me as I typed my earlier post so it may be worth a search around to see if anyone else has had the same thought. As I said earlier, I'm not particularly concerned myself but will do some digging around to ensure I'm up to date.

Theoretical plasma physics ... but I am 50+ so most of the work I do is project and group management.

Cool field to be involved in anyway. Believe it or not plasma came up in the office just the other day. I usually give the guys a 'fact of the day' (their idea, not mine) and my question was "how many states of matter are there?". Most said 3, one said 4; as you may expect, no-one said 7...