Who is the greatest soccer coach of all time?

[OkayMate]

I would say the difference is if Fergie manages Bolton Wanders he probably keep them mid table prem at least, Pep manages them and theres a good chance it goes horribly wrong. I think that really feeds into his great strength at Man Utd as well, he was very good at stopping the rot, when the club hit bad form making sure it only lasted 2-3 games and didnt cost them the title.

Added to that though I think what Ferguson has in his favour is that he was the last of the god king managers, the last manager who gave the impression he ran the club with an iron fist. Since then I think we've seen pretty much all elite managers shift to being more coaches who work with the squad they are given. Its almost like being asked to rate people doing two different jobs IMHO.

Fergie went into save clubs. Pep went in with a club already built for him armed with cash.

 

[prod2821]

True, Scottish football maybe wasnt quite as dominated by the old firm at that point as Dundee did win a title as well but still nobody but the old firm has won since Fergerson.

I think some of his greatest achievements are actually what he was able to do with Aberdeen, considering only one other club have taken a single league title off the old firm since the 1960s, winning a European trophy with them is pretty mad too.

this, SAF's achievements at AFC domestically and in Europe were special, then to turn Man U into a powerhouse just solidified his legacy, I'd love to have seen Pep have had a similar trajectory

also Jim McLean of Dundee United who just passed this past Dec was another legend of the Scottish Premiership

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Fergie had the ability of making mediocre players look good, signing young talent and making them into superstars.

Pep have been gifted world class teams soon as he starts his role as manager. Not denying pep is a good manager but he’s not fit to lace fergies boots

What mediocre players did he turn into superstars?

Because it could be argued that Pep did the same with Pique (Man U reject) and Busquets (slow, skinny cunt). Hell, you could even say Xavi reached the heights he reached because of Pep. I mean, he already had several years of first team action before Pep arrived and he was just another good but unspectacular midfielder.

Guardiola, Iniesta, and Messi arrive and he turns into a Ballon d'Or contender.

 

[JDragon]

Let me introduce some German-centric entrants / honorable mentions.

Jürgen Klopp. Took over Mainz 05 in second league and brought them to the Uefa Cup (with some luck, obviously). Took over Dortmund when they were not a top club any more. Formed them into champions and won the national championship twice and only narrowly lost the CL final to Bayern. Went to Liverpool, led them back to the CL and won it, and won a league title for the first time in decades.

He may not have a long list of trophies, and he did taste defeat a lot. But he has formed fantastic teams and brought success everywhere he worked.

Udo Lattek. Known in his late years mainly as an alcoholic with sometimes bizarre opinions, his actual career was certainly remarkable: took over Bayern in 1970, discovered Paul Breitner and Uli Hoeness, won three consecutive league titles (a first) and the ECC in 1974. Went to Mönchengladbach to win 2 more league titles and the Uefa Cup (and almost the ECC, losing to Liverpool in 1977). After a short stint in Dortmund, he went to coach Barca, winning the European Cup Winners' Cup in 1981, making him the only coach to win three different European titles with different teams. Went back to Bayern and won another three titles when this was not the norm.

Otto Rehhagel. May seem like an unpopular nomination, but consider this: He had a rather unremarkable start into his career and was coaching Dortmund when they @Deffid shamefully lost 0-12 on the final day of the 1977/78 season, almost costing Cologne the championship. But then, things developed.

He was trainer at Bremen for 14 years and developed them into a top team, winning the title in 1988 and 1993 and won the Cup Winners Cup. Won to Bayern and... failed. But then he went to Kaiserslautern, led them back from second league and instantly upset Bayern to become Bundesliga champions! And later, he coached Greece to their 2004 European Championship. So he has a solid record of making unremarkable teams dramatically overachieve.

Rinus Michels has already been named. He was not very successful with Köln, despite winning the DFB Pokal, but Fifa named him coach of the century in 1999.

 

[Rawex]

Otto Rehhagel. May seem like an unpopular nomination, but consider this: He had a rather unremarkable start into his career and was coaching Dortmund when they @Deffid shamefully lost 0-12 on the final day of the 1977/78 season, almost costing Cologne the championship. But then, things developed.

He was trainer at Bremen for 14 years and developed them into a top team, winning the title in 1988 and 1993 and won the Cup Winners Cup. Won to Bayern and... failed. But then he went to Kaiserslautern, led them back from second league and instantly upset Bayern to become Bundesliga champions! And later, he coached Greece to their 2004 European Championship. So he has a solid record of making unremarkable teams dramatically overachieve.

Fuck him. Greece won with most Boeing football world has seen. Makes Mourinho's and Simeone's tactics look like 70's Brazil in comparison.

 

[JDragon]

Fuck him. Greece won with most Boeing football world has seen. Makes Mourinho's and Simeone's tactics look like 70's Brazil in comparison.

I agree. I loved the 2000 and 2004 Portugal sides and was pissed. But you cannot deny it is remarkable that he won with a team that never should have made it out of group stage.

 

[Rawex]

I agree. I loved the 2000 and 2004 Portugal sides and was pissed. But you cannot deny it is remarkable that he won with a team that never should have made it out of group stage.

You are right but i am not giving him any credit. Going to hate him and full on spiteful cunt.

 

[OkayMate]

What mediocre players did he turn into superstars?

Because it could be argued that Pep did the same with Pique (Man U reject) and Busquets (slow, skinny cunt). Hell, you could even say Xavi reached the heights he reached because of Pep. I mean, he already had several years of first team action before Pep arrived and he was just another good but unspectacular midfielder.

Guardiola, Iniesta, and Messi arrive and he turns into a Ballon d'Or contender.

I said he made he made them look good in a united team. Nicky Butt, John O’Shea, Jonny Evans. 3 as an example.

Fergie could build class as in Ronaldo, beckham, scholes etc

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I said he made he made them look good in a united team. Nicky Butt, John O’Shea, Jonny Evans. 3 as an example.

Fergie could build class as in Ronaldo, beckham, scholes etc

Well then Pep certainly matches him in that regard. Taking so-so players and turning them to useful ones like Pedro, Keita and Sterling.

He should also get credit for the extremely controversial decision to kick out the supremely talented Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Deco. Who the hell does that and still succeeds massively? Most other coaches would have kept them until their form REALLY dropped.

 

[Jose Beehive]

Yeah, Fergie won a lot, but his teams didn't play particularly memorably nor did he really establish a "style."

On the other hand, Lord Pep won a lot AND he gave us the greatest show the game has ever seen with Barcelona. His style was so influential that every damn club has tried to play like them since. Everyone's trying to play it out the back, short passes only, lots of possession. Even English clubs are doing this!

And he's replicated (roughly) this at Bayern and City. Pep the GOAT, contest over.

He did kind of have an established style, it was just at a time when people didn't look into the intricacies like that as deeply as they do now with the Internet and stuff available.

He was mostly known for playing 4-4-2 with very direct Wingers, it was quick attacking football, with both CM's sort of rotating box-to-box roles, which often didn't work when other teams tried it, but somehow he managed to get it to.
I believe his brand of football was very attractive, just in a completely different way to say a Pep Barcelona, or Arsen Arsenal before them. Part of why the PL is considered to be such a high paced league is because of the president Fergie took into dominating with direct attacking football, he did change and evolve quite a lot though in his later years though, adopting 4-5-1 and such, he did it at United from 1986 to 2013 lets not forget, he had to change whether he liked it or not, just like Pep does now...

It's not true though, Atletico Madrid in the same league play a very different brand of football, as do Liverpool who have had great success. There are elements Pep might have inspired but you can't say for sure in many regards, what about Bielsa's influence on Pep? He didn't just come up with this shit off the top of his head(Well maybe some of it).

Pep's route to the top was so much easier than SAF's was, it's harder to give him as much credit in a lot of ways because it felt very gifted both with opportunity and finance, as opposed to SAF kind of working his way up to that kind of position.
Pep could no doubt go down as the GOAT when he's done, if not already, but not yet for me, he's had it too easy thus far imo.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

He did kind of have an established style, it was just at a time when people didn't look into the intricacies like that as deeply as they do now with the Internet and stuff available.

He was mostly known for playing 4-4-2 with very direct Wingers, it was quick attacking football, with both CM's sort of rotating box-to-box roles, which often didn't work when other teams tried it, but somehow he managed to get it to.
I believe his brand of football was very attractive, just in a completely different way to say a Pep Barcelona, or Arsen Arsenal before them. Part of why the PL is considered to be such a high paced league is because of the president Fergie took into dominating with direct attacking football, he did change and evolve quite a lot though in his later years though, adopting 4-5-1 and such, he did it at United from 1986 to 2013 lets not forget, he had to change whether he liked it or not, just like Pep does now...

It's not true though, Atletico Madrid in the same league play a very different brand of football, as do Liverpool who have had great success. There are elements Pep might have inspired but you can't say for sure in many regards, what about Bielsa's influence on Pep? He didn't just come up with this shit off the top of his head(Well maybe some of it).

Pep's route to the top was so much easier than SAF's was, it's harder to give him as much credit in a lot of ways because it felt very gifted both with opportunity and finance, as opposed to SAF kind of working his way up to that kind of position.
Pep could no doubt go down as the GOAT when he's done, if not already, but not yet for me, he's had it too easy thus far imo.

Mmmm, not convinced about Fergie having his own style. Lots of pace, long passes, crosses, and crashing the box for headers has been a trademark of the English game for decades. Fergie's Man U were the ones that did it best and most recently though.

Pep's style is much more distinctive and far more influential. Obviously not EVERYONE is going to try it, but I've personally never seen a style get adopted by so many in such a short period of time.

I do agree that Fergie had a tougher road to prominence. But then, it's not Pep's fault he started at the top, is it? He was a solid but far from legendary player so he got Barca's first team after excelling with its youth side, not because of his name or fame. His real merit is in being a near complete success at all the elite teams he's coached and never being sacked.

And I 100% agree that Pep was influenced by others. No way will you see me argue that he invented that short pass, possession-heavy style. Hell, that style has been a staple in parts of South America for 100 years (minus the high pressing) but just like everything else in the world, football is very Euro-centric.

 

[Jose Beehive]

Mmmm, not convinced about Fergie having his own style. Lots of pace, long passes, crosses, and crashing the box for headers has been a trademark of the English game for decades. Fergie's Man U were the ones that did it best and most recently though.

Pep's style is much more distinctive and far more influential. Obviously not EVERYONE is going to try it, but I've personally never seen a style get adopted by so many in such a short period of time.

I do agree that Fergie had a tougher road to prominence. But then, it's not Pep's fault he started at the top, is it? He was a solid but far from legendary player so he got Barca's first team after excelling with its youth side, not because of his name or fame. His real merit is in being a near complete success at all the elite teams he's coached and never being sacked.

And I 100% agree that Pep was influenced by others. No way will you see me argue that he invented that short pass, possession-heavy style. Hell, that style has been a staple in parts of South America for 100 years (minus the high pressing) but just like everything else in the world, football is very Euro-centric.

Great post.

I think he did develop a style it was Klopp esque in that it relied on "mentality monsters", there were elements of lots of brands of football, there were just less known words for the player roles like there are today and less understanding of tactics in general from the common fan.. a centre mid was a centre mid, a striker was a striker, nobody knew about Treqaurtista's, Raumdeuter, Enganche's and False 9's etc etc, but those things were being done to some extent, just the labels didn't really exist, man marking and zonal marking were about as technical as it got in fan discussion really...

I'd also argue that Pep's philosophy was kind of what the Spanish league was already known for too(outside of Spain and excluding Real really), with lots of passing and slowing the game down, Arsene Wenger was kind of doing "Tika-Taka" before the term was even created, as were other teams at times, like Barcelona themselves to some extent.

I don't blame Pep for taking his opportunities, he did what anyone would in his shoes, but I can still hold criticism for him for not having proved what so many other managers have with having success with a shit team and 0 money... Of course he's smashed it everywhere, but many managers do a lot better when they inherit the best team in the league and a load of money, Di Matteo will go down as a farrr better manager than the majority just because he blagged a Champions League with an amazing team, yet i'd argue Sean Dyche is better who many haven't even heard of lol.
Some manager's like Pep and SAF do a lot more for a club than just present a brand of football, they change things internally, they push for better pay for the groundsmen, they ask for stadium expansion, newt training grounds, they get involved in the politics of the club, leave a mark on the club, and SAF did that better than anyone I can think of.

SAF was never known as the best tactician, but he had his moments of amazing tinkering, just like Pep does when he for example makes his LB hybrid into a CAM position for a couple of games, SAF would play DM's on the wing to man mark like Owen Hargreaves, or sometimes a LB or RB as wingers, he at one point had two Number 10's with Tevez and Rooney both doing more tracking back and pressing than almost anyone else on the pitch...

But like I said shit changes between the 80's and 2000's a lot, and just like how SAF had to evolve over the years and tweak, so does Pep, what got him success at Barcelona with Tika Taka is very different to what is working for him now at City, I think this "style" thing kind of get's blown up a bit in the internet era, look at how amazing Klopps "style" was against Pep's the last 2 years, and then now how shit that "style" seemingly is lol, SAF found success for most of his 25 years at United, Pep is still a baby in comparison with how he will be remembered and viewed when his time comes to retire, I have no doubt many will hold him in GOAT status, he is Messi/Ronaldo to SAF's Maradona or Pele, debate will always be there.

Always enjoy a good football chat with you lol.

 

[Pem123]

Sorry but there is no such discussion nor confusion about GOAT coach in football.
Its Sir Alex.

This.

Its not even worth debating.

 

[Boxeo12]

 

[Jonny Ninja]

Don’t think I can answer that question; it’s too broad and I don’t know enough about managers pre 80s

What I will say is Fergie is the best ever British manager. Not just because if his continued success at utd, through his different trans there, but also his success at Aberdeen. Breaking the Glasgow stronghold and winning a European trophy. His last season as a manager he won the league, with a relatively poor team. That win was all about fergie (and possibly RVP)

today pep is a level above everyone else imo. I was never really a fan until he came to the Prem. he had more to prove as he’d succeeded in 2 leagues that are pretty much a 2 horse race at best. However, He has raised the level of the premier league since he’s been at city, and they are dominating a much more competitive league. Realistically there are 3 other teams at least that can compete with them in transfers, and city do not have the name and history of Barca, Bayern or most of their premier league rivals.
He’s been phenomenal

 

[tangata motu'a]

anybody say rodney dangerfield yet?

 

[Boxeo12]

 

[Da Speeit]

This.

Its not even worth debating.

he lost two finals to pep in a 3 season span

 

[DS7]

When it comes to managers it's always highly subjective and there's no definitive answer. To me Sir Alex is easily the GOAT, but Pep, Cruyff, Ancelotti, Rinus Michels, Arrigo Sachi, Brian Clough, Mourinho and a few others that i'm sure i'm forgetting right now all have strong arguments and it's all about subjectivity.

 

[DS7]

and then now how shit that "style" seemingly is lol

What do you mean by this?? Liverpool literally had to play a full season without their 2 starting central defenders, they had a ton of injuries. The Premier League is a shark tank and it's normal that they had the season they had given context. Also Klopp's work at Liverpool trumps Pep's work at City by a mile, even with a UCL win for Pep in case they beat Chelsea.