Why real muay thai translates so well to MMA, why American muay thai doesnt

[Cole train]

since everyone is saying that slamming is legal in thaiboxing so i plan to randleplex my opponent in my fight

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

no one can argue that real Muay Thai
(as it is practiced in Thailand) is by far the most effective striking art that is ever been devised in human history.

.

No it isn't.
The heavy focus on mid kicking spamming in stadium MT is a result of stadium scoring system. That is why MT has this beautiful rythm that Westerners just don't get.

If the scoring system was aimed at KOs or damage Thais would fight differently.

So while I agree that MT is the superior striking system in theory, it is not scored with "combat" in mind in Thailand.

IMO the absolute best would be Thai rules (unlimited clinching and dumps) and western scoring. Thais would punch more and use less mid kicks

 

[Khonda]

No it isn't.
The heavy focus on mid kicking spamming in stadium MT is a result of stadium scoring system. That is why MT has this beautiful rythm that Westerners just don't get.

If the scoring system was aimed at KOs or damage Thais would fight differently.

So while I agree that MT is the superior striking system in theory, it is not scored with "combat" in mind in Thailand.

IMO the absolute best would be Thai rules (unlimited clinching and dumps) and western scoring. Thais would punch more and use less mid kicks

That's basically what Knock Out is trying, and I must say they deliver more excitement than the average, really is one of my fav to watch event though it's a smaller organisation.



They even invite top thais sometimes

 

[Kanka]

No it isn't.
The heavy focus on mid kicking spamming in stadium MT is a result of stadium scoring system. That is why MT has this beautiful rythm that Westerners just don't get.

If the scoring system was aimed at KOs or damage Thais would fight differently.

So while I agree that MT is the superior striking system in theory, it is not scored with "combat" in mind in Thailand.

IMO the absolute best would be Thai rules (unlimited clinching and dumps) and western scoring. Thais would punch more and use less mid kicks

I think the scoring is mostly based on effectiveness and balance. It's a cultural difference. Westernes seem to like agression more, even when training. I think generally thai scoring makes more sense than western scoring, although it takes some time to learn. There are small tells that go unnoticed by westerners, like having your mouth open, holding the ropes, losing balance, having a dominant poisition in the clinch etc. On the other there doesn't seem to be a consensus in how to score muay thai outside of thailand.

The thing i don't really like about thai scoring is sometimes the first two rounds can be quite uneventful, and in the 5th round sometimes nothing really happens because the winning guy is walking backwards avoiding the opponents strikes. But i do think outclassing the opponent on points has more merit than knocking the opponent out. In the book "art of war" by Zun Tzu he mentions something about making the opponent surrender is superior to killing them. I'd argue it's the same in combat sports. Just a personal opinion though.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I think the scoring is mostly based on effectiveness and balance. It's a cultural difference. Westernes seem to like agression more, even when training. I think generally thai scoring makes more sense than western scoring, although it takes some time to learn. There are small tells that go unnoticed by westerners, like having your mouth open, holding the ropes, losing balance, having a dominant poisition in the clinch etc. On the other there doesn't seem to be a consensus in how to score muay thai outside of thailand.

The thing i don't really like about thai scoring is sometimes the first two rounds can be quite uneventful, and in the 5th round sometimes nothing really happens because the winning guy is walking backwards avoiding the opponents strikes. But i do think outclassing the opponent on points has more merit than knocking the opponent out. In the book "art of war" by Zun Tzu he mentions something about making the opponent surrender is superior to killing them. I'd argue it's the same in combat sports. Just a personal opinion though.

Balance? Yes absolutely. It is one of the biggest criteria in stadium scoring.

Effectiveness? As in hurting/KOing your opponent? No absolutely not. I am sorry but you rarely see mid-kicks (roundhouse) KOs in MT, yet they are by far the most frequent kick.

As you know, MT front kicks are teeps, which are very efficient at keeping distance and throwing your opponent 2 meters back on his ass, but teeps are not, by design, damaging kicks.

Again, it all boils down to the scoring system which as you pointed out, gives a lot of importance to balance.

But of course this is not all black or white. All the clinch work (including elbows and knees) is aimed at maximum damage (and this aspect is very weak in western versions of MT).

These Thais do have the tools to be absolute killers in "western" rules, don't get me wrong. I think the "off-balancing" thing is the biggest impedement to realistic fighting.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

That's basically what Knock Out is trying, and I must say they deliver more excitement than the average, really is one of my fav to watch event though it's a smaller organisation.



They even invite top thais sometimes

Interesting. But quite honestly, I didn't like what I saw.
It lacks MT's rythm and beauty, but I also did not see alot of clinching.

 

[Kanka]

Balance? Yes absolutely. It is one of the biggest criteria in stadium scoring.

Effectiveness? As in hurting/KOing your opponent? No absolutely not. I am sorry but you rarely see mid-kicks (roundhouse) KOs in MT, yet they are by far the most frequent kick.

As you know, MT front kicks are teeps, which are very efficient at keeping distance and throwing your opponent 2 meters back on his ass, but teeps are not, by design, damaging kicks.

Again, it all boils down to the scoring system which as you pointed out, gives a lot of importance to balance.

But of course this is not all black or white. All the clinch work (including elbows and knees) is aimed at maximum damage (and this aspect is very weak in western versions of MT).

These Thais do have the tools to be absolute killers in "western" rules, don't get me wrong. I think the "off-balancing" thing is the biggest impedement to realistic fighting.

Effectiveness as in making your opponent lose balance and rhythm. The mid kick is really effective. Just watch any thai vs a non thai and you'll see the non thais can rarely deal with the mid kicks. They'll try to counter with punches but the mid kick disrupts your offense.

If you teep your opponent and he falls to the ground, that's a big score and might be decisive in a close fight. With the midkick it's also about effectiveness. If your opponent can just walk through the kicks it's not gonna score a lot. Sangmanee had some fights in where he landed a lot of kicks but his opponents seemed unfazed, not losing balance from the kick. Don't remember exactly which opponent but iirc Yodlekpet vs Sangmanee is a good example. It's the same with punches though, if you land a punch that doesn't seem to affect the opponent it's not going to score a lot.

By the way, teeps can hurt as hell.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Effectiveness as in making your opponent lose balance and rhythm. The mid kick is really effective. Just watch any thai vs a non thai and you'll see the non thais can rarely deal with the mid kicks. They'll try to counter with punches but the mid kick disrupts your offense.

If you teep your opponent and he falls to the ground, that's a big score and might be decisive in a close fight. With the midkick it's also about effectiveness. If your opponent can just walk through the kicks it's not gonna score a lot. Sangmanee had some fights in where he landed a lot of kicks but his opponents seemed unfazed, not losing balance from the kick. Don't remember exactly which opponent but iirc Yodlekpet vs Sangmanee is a good example. It's the same with punches though, if you land a punch that doesn't seem to affect the opponent it's not going to score a lot.

By the way, teeps can hurt as hell.

We are in agreement. MT is more about balance than it is about damage.

Which is perfectly fine btw. It is a particular sport.

 

[Kanka]

We are in agreement. MT is more about balance than it is about damage.

Which is perfectly fine btw. It is a particular sport.

I never said that. The strike is effective if it hurts your opponent or visibly affects him. Wouldn't say muay thai isn't about damage when you have guys getting elbowed and kicked to the head lol.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I never said that. The strike is effective if it hurts your opponent or visibly affects him. Wouldn't say muay thai isn't about damage when you have guys getting elbowed and kicked to the head lol.

Most of the scoring strikes MT don't do a lot of damage. These guys spam mid kicks and teeps non-stop for 5 rounds many times per month, yet KOs are less frequent than in Western combat sports.

The above applies to the kicks. Obviously elbows are another story.

 

[Kanka]

Most of the scoring strikes MT don't do a lot of damage. These guys spam mid kicks and teeps non-stop for 5 rounds many times per month, yet KOs are less frequent than in Western combat sports.

The above applies to the kicks. Obviously elbows are another story.

Mid kicks hurt as hell. Teeps hurt aswell

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Mid kicks hurt as hell. Teeps hurt aswell

Oh course they hurt. But they are not designed to KO, nor do we hardly ever see a KO from one of them.

 

[Kanka]

Oh course they hurt. But they are not designed to KO, nor do we hardly ever see a KO from one of them.

That's because the're fighting against other elite fighters that are used to these kicks. It seems quite common with TKO's whenever a strong kicker fights outside of thailand against a lesser fighter. Singdam broke a few arms in China, Sangmanee TKO'd a couple guys with arm kicks, Kongsak broke Pornsanae's arm.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Insert any random Muay Thai KO highlight here.

Damage absolutely matters in Muay Thai. Damage doesn't just translate to KO, it can be applied to the whole body. That's why mid kicks are scored high because they are the hardest strike and damaging to the body.

I don't exactly like the slow build up of rounds 1-2, go hard then take 5th off either. It's not always the case of course. However in those rounds that they are really going at it you better believe everything is thrown to inflict damage. It's not just middle kicks being thrown. KO's are very common in Muay Thai.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Insert any random Muay Thai KO highlight here.

Damage absolutely matters in Muay Thai. Damage doesn't just translate to KO, it can be applied to the whole body. That's why mid kicks are scored high because they are the hardest strike and damaging to the body.

I don't exactly like the slow build up of rounds 1-2, go hard then take 5th off either. It's not always the case of course. However in those rounds that they are really going at it you better believe everything is thrown to inflict damage. It's not just middle kicks being thrown. KO's are very common in Muay Thai.

Certainly not as much as you or the other poster above, but I have been watching stadium MT for a while now and I still have to disagree with you guys.

Of course KOs are common in MT, but haven't you guys noticed that they are less common than in other full-contact sports?

If these guys went for max damage every time, they wouldn't be able to fight several times per month as they do.

And of course, mid-kicks are damaging, but it is cumulative damage. I am talking about KO potential. If a KO happens with a mid-kick, usually it will be after like 30 such kicks or whatever, and the fighter throwing them does not expect every one of them to have KO potential.

Of course you see all kinds of kicks in MT but the lion share is pushing teeps and mid-kicks, whose purpose is to throw off-balance, not to KO, even if they do hurt and even if they occasionally KO someone.

I am a bit surprised about this conversation, honestly, because to me it is obvious. It is also what allows MT to be so special and beautiful and have this rythm. You know when we have sequences of double mids, answered by other double mids, reanswered by a power mid, etc., all in one rythm, and when all the gamblers in the corner are going ape shit? You know what I am talking about, right? I think it is beautiful but these moments would never ever happen under a different ruleset. And in such sequences, no, I am sorry, but for some reasons these dudes are not really trying to KO eachother. Maybe they are doing it for the gamblers, or the show, I don't know.

 

[Kanka]

Certainly not as much as you or the other poster above, but I have been watching stadium MT for a while now and I still have to disagree with you guys.

Of course KOs are common in MT, but haven't you guys noticed that they are less common than in other full-contact sports?

If these guys went for max damage every time, they wouldn't be able to fight several times per month as they do.

And of course, mid-kicks are damaging, but it is cumulative damage. I am talking about KO potential. If a KO happens with a mid-kick, usually it will be after like 30 such kicks or whatever, and the fighter throwing them does not expect every one of them to have KO potential.

Of course you see all kinds of kicks in MT but the lion share is pushing teeps and mid-kicks, whose purpose is to throw off-balance, not to KO, even if they do hurt and even if they occasionally KO someone.

I am a bit surprised about this conversation, honestly, because to me it is obvious. It is also what allows MT to be so special and beautiful and have this rythm. You know when we have sequences of double mids, answered by other double mids, reanswered by a power mid, etc., all in one rythm, and when all the gamblers in the corner are going ape shit? You know what I am talking about, right? I think it is beautiful but these moments would never ever happen under a different ruleset. And in such sequences, no, I am sorry, but for some reasons these dudes are not really trying to KO eachother. Maybe they are doing it for the gamblers, or the show, I don't know.

You should read up more on thai scoring, i don't remember where i found the article explaining it but it basically said strikes are scored on effectiveness which means if you off-balance your opponent or visibly hurt them. The damage is clearly a factor, so thai fighters will try to act as if they weren't hurt by the strikes. If a guy gets stunned by some knees or mid kicks, and isn't striking back it's often a sign that the other guy is hurt and the fight gets stopped. If you can just absorb the strikes without seeming hurt or losing balance, the other guy isn't scoring much.

Then it really depends on the fighter, some guys prefer to KO their opponents, some prefer to win on points, depending on their style. When two high level strikes are matched against each others, sometimes there just aren't any openings for KO'ing the other guy. When there is an opportunity to get a KO i'd say most go for the kill. Just chasing after the KO all the time is just a bad strategy and will make it easier for your opponent to beat you on points. It's not like fighters in other martial arts are going for the KO all the time though. I'd argue most boxers try to box and not necessarily try to KO their opponent with every strike.

Also stadium fights are usually very evenly matched in terms of skill and weight advantage, so KO's might be more rare (still not rare as it's quite common). A lot of time the fights are so evenly matched that giving up as little as 1 lbs weight can make a clear difference. If you watch lower level muay thai fights where it's more difficult to create such even matches, you will find a lot of KO's.

 

[esum80]

from my personal viewing history, here are the shows ranked in terms of number of KOs:

1. max muay thai
2. channel 7
3. omnoi (or even the blue arena)
4. rajadamnern (onesongchai, petchyindee, etc)
5. lumpinee (tko, kiatpetch)

Also stadium fights are usually very evenly matched in terms of skill and weight advantage, so KO's might be more rare (still not rare as it's quite common). A lot of time the fights are so evenly matched that giving up as little as 1 lbs weight can make a clear difference. If you watch lower level muay thai fights where it's more difficult to create such even matches, you will find a lot of KO's.

QFT ^^

 

[JKD sanda]

Let's put it this way, I live in a large metropolitan area with well over 6 million people.
There's a few decent Muay Thai gyms I know of, but I can't say I've heard of any places that teach Sanshou.

until I moved to BFE no where did I find a San shou
School , been going for few years We recently got a mauy Thai gym . My son goes to . I plan on going a few days a week

 

[JKD sanda]

Certainly not as much as you or the other poster above, but I have been watching stadium MT for a while now and I still have to disagree with you guys.

Of course KOs are common in MT, but haven't you guys noticed that they are less common than in other full-contact sports?

If these guys went for max damage every time, they wouldn't be able to fight several times per month as they do.

And of course, mid-kicks are damaging, but it is cumulative damage. I am talking about KO potential. If a KO happens with a mid-kick, usually it will be after like 30 such kicks or whatever, and the fighter throwing them does not expect every one of them to have KO potential.

Of course you see all kinds of kicks in MT but the lion share is pushing teeps and mid-kicks, whose purpose is to throw off-balance, not to KO, even if they do hurt and even if they occasionally KO someone.

I am a bit surprised about this conversation, honestly, because to me it is obvious. It is also what allows MT to be so special and beautiful and have this rythm. You know when we have sequences of double mids, answered by other double mids, reanswered by a power mid, etc., all in one rythm, and when all the gamblers in the corner are going ape shit? You know what I am talking about, right? I think it is beautiful but these moments would never ever happen under a different ruleset. And in such sequences, no, I am sorry, but for some reasons these dudes are not really trying to KO eachother. Maybe they are doing it for the gamblers, or the show, I don't know.

From my understanding they have gentlemen rules they follow like in most fighting sports .

Thai boxers are known for being extremely respectful outside of the ring. You will never see a Thai boxer bad-mouthing his opponent(s) like you see in the Western Boxing world. Thai's believe in doing all their "talking" in the ring, letting their fighting speak for them.techniques that are considered "dirty pool", but are still ring legal.
No1- When a mid-body level kick comes, you can trap and spike it with your elbow.
No2- When clinching your opponent, get your glove into his face and cover his nose and mouth so that he has difficulty breathing.
No3- Also, while clinching, use your chin to dig into your opponents face, especially the eyes. Thai boxers like to enter the ring with a few days razor stubble for two reasons. One, the stubble helps punches, elbows, etc slip off the face, and two, to dig it into their opponents face.
No4- Again, during the clinch (notice a trend?), when fighting for control of an opponents neck/head, or defending from having your head pulled down, you can reach across his face and jam your elbow into it. Use your elbow/arm as a stiff barrier, keeping it in his face. Dig it into his nose or eyes or mouth...
No5- Again, while clinched, you can wrap your leg around your opponent and heel kick him in the back of the leg or buttocks.
No6- Throw a haymaker-like punch, but hit him with the bony part of the wrist rather than the fist. This is a good knockout technique because the wrist/forearm area is not protected with boxing gloves.
No7- Like boxing, it is illegal to hit an opponent who is down. However, if the opponent has not hit the floor yet... I have seen many fights ended when an opponent gets that extra kick or even a knee in before their opponent hits the floor after they have thrown or dumped them.
No8- Push Kicking opponent in the face. This is the most insulting thing you can do in the ring. You would not make a Thai as angry if you said very explicitly derogatory remarks about his parents. In Thai culture (and many Asian cultures) the head is considered the most important part of the body (practically holy!), the feet the lowliest. To push kick them in the face is to say that you are beneath the
dirt under my feet. When a Thai push kicks to someone's face, he does not strike with it, rather he brushes his opponents face with it, heightening the insult factor.
As you can see, Thai's like to play for keeps. However, they keep it in the ring. The above techniques are all legal in the ring, but considered to be "dirty pool". Most fighters refrain from using them, as they can expect like treatment if they do. As an interesting note along the same idea, this is why many, many Thai fighters rarely ever use elbows in the ring. There is sort of a "gentleman's agreement" amongst boxers that if you do not use elbows, neither will I. If you do, however, expect like in return. This from the book mauy Thai. The art of fighting. Written by
Yod Ruerngsa, Khun Kao Charuad and James Cartmell

 

[Max Thomas]

I'm real anxious to train in Thailand over the summer. Hopefully they'll show me something in the 2 weeks that I'm there