Will MMA have an emergence of leg lock wins similar to grappling had?

[RemyR]

This is an old video of Garry Tonon, Gordon Ryan, and Firas Zahabi grappling with people trying to strike them, before Garry and Gordon were interested in MMA. Watching the video it seems to me they are having great success with minimizing the damage done and controlling their opponent by using the inside and outside sankaku and then applying a quick heel hook. The common argument I hear about about leg locks in MMA is they leave you open to getting punched in the face, but the trio seem to be doing a good job controlling the distance while setting up the finish.

Granted, this is just sparring and Gary + Gordon are two of the best no-gi grapplers in the world but to me this seems like leg locks are a bit more viable than what is commonly thought in MMA.

Your thoughts?

 

[rmongler]

The dds guys started getting into 50:0 in the first place mainly as a counter attack vs someone going for the saddle; if you pull the saddle man's lower leg up you can basically slide right into it. And if both of you are already playing footsies, an attacking position is at least better than nothing at all.

It kept working for a while yet since attacks from that position were more or less unheard of and unpracticed by anybody (not for no reason, i would say), themselves included, and also since it's a quick and easy position to get into to begin with (which, in itself, i would say is also a function of it's drawbacks, which we see hence).

Slx/ashi garami gives strong positional control, but for heel hooks specifically it honestly does not have a good angle unless you have a leg knot too (using it to reverse position with an ankle pick/stand up sweep would really be better; or as a point of transition to saddle using a reverse x slide). Getting a good angle to do a heel hook in slx basically means turning your body into a position that is practically like outside ashi/50:0 anyways, losing the control the position has for stopping the opponent from reaching you. Outside ashi is a good angle for heel hooks, but has bad control over the opponent's movement; rather, it can let them control you. This is generally the position you see, whenever you see people 'open to getting punched in the face'; you're basically putting yourself in a hip lock leg turk exposing the back angle.




If for whatever reason the yakuza is holding a gun to your family and you have to do a leg lock from outside ashi or else, i'd say the ankle lock would actually be better there than the heel hook, since the ankle lock itself serves as a point of control, and you can use it to turn (them) belly down.

In general i would say 50:50 and saddle are the best terminuses for attacking leg locks in general in mma (due to the control over the opponent they give, preventing them from hitting you), and attacking heel hooks specifically. While, capacity at using single leg x/x-guard variations in general is also important, even if only as a staging point of transition, since you can slide right into it from a single leg takedown set up.

 

[INTERL0PER]

I doubt it.

I think leg locks can definitely work in MMA (Palhares says hi), but I think that the time you need to devote to developing your game to the point of effectiveness is too much for the average fighter. Other things have to suffer, and I think most fighters wouldn't consider the trade off worth it.

 

[Stujitsu1]

I think leg lock is good for MMA and will probably increase in use, but will never dominate the sport. Here is why:

Being on your back is bad in MMA. Yes you can win there...its possible...but more people loose there by far. Pulling guard is too risky.

But...especially if you are on your back and your opponent is standing, why the hell not leg-lock! It puts an offensive opponent on the defensive potentially. There is no rule against it. No rule against reaping the knee. It potentially creates scrambles allowing you to stand up. You might earn a tap.

 

[Normot]

I see the same problem with leglocks as I do all other submissions in MMA. A round is 5 minutes and it's hard to takedown and submit a guy who is good in 5 minutes while he is choosing to avoid the ground and punch your face. Sure leglocks open up rolling submissions and you can jump to them easier than jumping to armbars, but only by so much.

 

[dmwalking]

I don't think so because not many BJJ guys get into MMA anymore. We'd need a solid influx of BJJ leg lockers to jump into MMA to see any kind of surge in leg lock popularity. I don't see that happening.

 

[peregrine]

Ryan Hall pulled a really nice move off on BJ.
I think it's possible, but for myself I prioritize training for self defense.
Thus those looking at training for sd would put it on the lower side of self defense as opposed to arm, hand and back control.

If you're young, you got lots of time, a couple of core dedicated partners being proficient at the leg game is a really great add on. I would not make that my priority in a curriculum and continuum as there are many other components in mma that need addressing.
For good mma and not a dozen or so amateur smokers, I'd prioritize defense. Everyone can do offense and known basics. But not everyone has solid defense and counter offense from each significant position.
Another perspective is this leg game in competition often results in people getting significantly injured. That results in time off and animosity. If I know someone is coming for my leg and will likely break it like Palhares I'm not gaming mma. I'm looking to do debilitating damage, an accidental finger break or eye poke for me to get to a dominant position where I can continue doing damage is ideal. Stakes are higher.

It also comes down to that saying about people like Baret Yoshida and Ryan Hall... they were bb at triangles but purples or less on many other positions. It's a personal niche choice.

 

[peregrine]

If you got a good overall game, no significant holes. Point is no huge holes in your game.

If mma or competition is a priority goal I think Leg Game could be a huge game changer in wins losses.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think leg lock is good for MMA and will probably increase in use, but will never dominate the sport. Here is why:

Being on your back is bad in MMA. Yes you can win there...its possible...but more people loose there by far. Pulling guard is too risky.

But...especially if you are on your back and your opponent is standing, why the hell not leg-lock! It puts an offensive opponent on the defensive potentially. There is no rule against it. No rule against reaping the knee. It potentially creates scrambles allowing you to stand up. You might earn a tap.

This sounds about right to me. Leg locks are good to distract and sweep when you're on bottom, and to create scrambles from bad positions. But top position is so much more valuable in MMA than in BJJ that if you're on top giving that up to enter a leg entanglement is almost always a bad idea unless you've just got an enormous comparative advantage in leg locking because you're a grappling savant like Hall or Tonon. The average UFC fighter however will never develop that level of expertise so going after the legs isn't going to be a dominant strategy for them.

 

[shunyata]

Hasn't it already?

Just takes the right practitioners.

Leglocks in the UFC go back to Mir vs Lesnar and further.

Palhares, Ryan Hall and others threaten with them.

On a world stage you see them a bit more with Japanese and Sambo style grapplers.

 

[Stujitsu1]

Hasn't it already?

Just takes the right practitioners.

Leglocks in the UFC go back to Mir vs Lesnar and further.

Palhares, Ryan Hall and others threaten with them.

On a world stage you see them a bit more with Japanese and Sambo style grapplers.

These dudes are specialists already. The one thing I will say is that UFC level guys are high level athletes already so the learning curve is short and fighting is there job. And its easier to heel hook than pull a spinning wheel kick for example. But with striking the leg lock game has its risks. I think being on your back in mma is a no-no...period! But if you have to be I think its good. I think reaping the knee from ashi is the best sweep vs a standing opponent! And it puts you right into a toe hold or heel hook and if they clear the knee line then they are turning away you can stand up and occasionally get a rear clinch. So I guess im thinking about what I would do. Am I gonna flop to my back in mma...nope...never! If im grounded and my opponents hovering over me...I might as well get punched going for a knee reap if Im getting punched anyway.

 

[Stujitsu1]

Another consideration is where does the fight occur. 80% of bjj is guarder vs standing passer so leg lock opportunities rule. In MMA you gonna have to bust your ass to get someone on their tail. In fact I think the energy expenditure of any single technique,a takedown is the highest. Do leglocks may become more prevalent but not actually prevalent. How boring it would be to watch if it did.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

I think it has plenty of relevance, especially against standing passers. The leg is the nearest limb, so it's the easiest to attack.
Ryan Hall already showed how spamming imanari rolls are a legit strategy, and then using your legs to outstrike your opponent since he won't be sweeping you.
The inside sankaku position will probably see rise in popularity, especially if garry tonon, dillon danis and perhaps Gordon Ryan starts wrecking havoc with it.

 

[miscend]

Raphael Lovato jr and Werdum do well in MMA when they pull guard and fight from their backs. So I don’t see a leg lock centric game being a problem.

 

[MaxMMA]

Leg attacks are already popular and gaining more traction imo. I've fought out of several leg attacks and attempted a few leg attacks myself in MMA. The threat is real and you are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't train them.

Imo the heel hook and it's variations is one the most powerful techniques in all of martial arts, on par with the one punch KO.

A few fighters have already used lower body attacks as their main weapon in the MMA arena with success like palharus and hall. Countless other fighters hold numerous lower body submissions on their records.

 

[flikerstance]

no their might just b 1 or 2 guys who do well like paul harris did for awhile but theirs just not enough control and punching

u gotta realize a mma fights only 5 mins 3 rounds and thats not even going into how long it takes t get the guy down

then you are on bottom basically trying t hit the sub with someoen trying t gnp you at any shot not enough time and way to dangerous

i think its a good tool in certain situations like if they are about 3 feat from the fence ad u have their leg and they have no where to run as they try to escape the leg u can have them pinned basically but again i feel they can be amazing n certain situations

 

[thugpoet]

Outside of back mount you can get pounded out doing it literally any submission move or slammed or have your guard passed.

Some more than others, do what moves your good at and force others to prepare for you

 

[mataleaos]

I think they'll become more common but not dominate the same way.

if anything just because there are tried and true strategies to winning in MMA that don't require nearly as much time and investment. Leg locks are a highly specialized area and you already have to be pretty heavy into the BJJ and submission grappling world to be exposed to them in a major way.

I just think going out of your way as an MMA fighter to get into a more niche aspect of only one of your cornerstone fighting arts is probably not the best way to use your time.

What I do think however, is that the butterfly guard, ashi garami, and X style games are great guard options that are very underused. Even if not for heel hooks, they control inside space and are great tools to help technical stand up, sweep, get onto passes or other upper body submissions, back attacks, and things like that. The idea of being married to heel hooks doesn't sound as viable as using a lot of the positions (where you could heel hook) for other things.

 

[Stoic1]

I think it's difficult to set up your positions on the receiving end of a fist. The same way half-guard specialists get murdered when strikes come into play.

 

[mataleaos]

I think it has plenty of relevance, especially against standing passers. The leg is the nearest limb, so it's the easiest to attack.
Ryan Hall already showed how spamming imanari rolls are a legit strategy, and then using your legs to outstrike your opponent since he won't be sweeping you.
The inside sankaku position will probably see rise in popularity, especially if garry tonon, dillon danis and perhaps Gordon Ryan starts wrecking havoc with it.

Re: the bolded it already has. I've seen it (and outside ashi) used way more in prelim fights in UFC cards and stuff like that in the past 2 years than anytime before. Still not seeing a lot of ideal control (double trouble) leading up to the finish except for one awesome Joe Soto fight. But people are at least attempting it in higher numbers and controlling the position fairly well. So I do think there's already been some influence and there's some people giving it a shot.

I think it's going to take a while before it looks as sharp. And that's just a natural thing in MMA. Most things that get big in jiu-jitsu seem to need a couple years to populate in MMA and then a couple more years after that before they start becoming higher percentage.