Would every Welterweight fighter and up in the UFC today have won UFC 1?

[SpedDaddyV]

Not including CM Punk

Would just about every sizeable UFC fighter in the UFC today have easily won UFC 1?

I would think some Lightweights and lower weight classes would have a hard time against guys like Kimo or Ken Shamrock who could just overpower them. The top Lightweights would probably handle it with ease

I was watching UFC 1 the other day, and the technique and fighters were so poor

Would a Mike Perry beat Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie?

 

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Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

FFS he's the only person to beat Bas that Bad never got revenge on. You don't beat Bas Rutten without being extremely skilled and good.

 

[SpedDaddyV]

Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

I agree, Ken Shamrock would be the toughest challenge and was the closest thing to the modern fighter today as far as being the complete package.

But was his striking defense and submission defense up to par for today's standards? The sport was so young that his skills were not really furnished.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

Ken's leglocks were rudimentary by modern standards, I think just about every UFC fighter could comfortably defend them.

 

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I agree, Ken Shamrock would be the toughest challenge

But was his striking defense and submission defense up to par for today's standards? The sport was so young that his skills were not really furnished.

Like I added. He beat prime, not peak, but still prime Bad Rutten. And Bas would run through the UFC WW top 5 in one day.

 

[Fesaine]

Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

FFS he's the only person to beat Bas that Bad never got revenge on. You don't beat Bas Rutten without being extremely skilled and good.

The leg locking game has evolved tremendously since then. Every single welterweight in the ufc can easily defend against shamrock leg attacks.

 

[JustOnce]

Not including CM Punk

Would just about every sizeable UFC fighter in the UFC today have easily won UFC 1?

I would think some Lightweights and lower weight classes would have a hard time against guys like Kimo or Ken Shamrock who could just overpower them. The top Lightweights would probably handle it with ease

I was watching UFC 1 the other day, and the technique and fighters were so poor

Would a Mike Perry beat Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie?

I think people under-rate Ken.

 

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Ken's leglocks were rudimentary by modern standards, I think just about every UFC fighter could comfortably defend them.

I didn't know heel hooks and knee bar fundamentals have changed.....


And they guy was an expert at them. I don't know where got rudimentary at? Have you watched his fights. His sets ups were amazing. Extremely fast and explosiveness.

Saying Ken was rudimentary is like saying Sakuraba's grappling was nothing special.

 

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The leg locking game has evolved tremendously since then. Every single welterweight in the ufc can easily defend against shamrock leg attacks.

How do you know? How many catch wrestlers in today's MMA? How many judo players in today's MMA actually focus and specialize in newaza? Because you know BJJ, Luta Livre, catch wrestling and Judo all have variations on how they attack with subs

Catch wrestling and Judo are more explosive based while BJJ and luta livre are more set/technique up based?

Do you think an imanari roll is something new?

 

[Fesaine]

How do you know? How many catch wrestlers in today's MMA? How many judo players in today's MMA actually focus and specialize in newaza?

Do you think an imanari roll is something new?

I assume you didnt follow BJJ in the past 20 years.

If you know anything about BJJ you would realize that leg locking has taking over the sport in the recent years.

 

[RockyLockridge]

Safe to say yes... depends though Im not sure if all of them could have beaten that sumo guy, that guy that did was smart about it and large himself.

if they all had royces bracket entry, then absolutely for sure.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I didn't know heel hooks and knee bar fundamentals have changed.....


And they guy was an expert at them. I don't know where got rudimentary at? Have you watched his fights. His sets ups were amazing. Extremely fast and explosiveness.

Saying Ken was rudimentary is like saying Sakuraba's grappling was nothing special.

The game has moved on an enormous amount in terms of leglocks, it's developed more than any other area of jiu jitsu. I'm only a blue belt but even I'm confident I wouldn't get leglocked by Ken (not saying I could outgrapple him overall). We just understand so much more about leglocks as a whole now and entire systems of grappling are built around them.

 

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I assume you didnt follow BJJ in the past 20 years.

If you know anything about BJJ you would realize that leg locking has taking over the sport in the recent years.

Lmao. They just started allowing leg locks are the brown belt level in IFBJJ gi competition.

And yes leg locks have taken over kinda. But it was because most BJJ practitioners never focused on it. Even Danaher said himself that for decades traditional BJJ had ignored the lower half of the body and the DDS won because they took advantage of something everyone else was ignoring. It wasn't that leg locks gotten better. It's that BJJ is finally giving leg locks their props.

Luta Livre, Judo and catch wrestling are light years ahead of most BJJ gyms in terms of leg locks. They gotta catch up.

Hell Dean Lister introduced Danaher to leg locks and his grappling started with catch wrestling. And I can post the video of Danaher saying it was Dean Lister who introduced me to leg locks.

"Why ignore 50% of the body?"

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

FFS he's the only person to beat Bas that Bad never got revenge on. You don't beat Bas Rutten without being extremely skilled and good.

Ken was a great fighter for his day.

But time has moved on. I think most fighters today piece him up and get a KO. Ken couldn't strike with modern fighters, he'd be badly hurt relatively quick

 

[Fesaine]

Lmao. They just started allowing leg locks are the brown belt level in IFBJJ gi competition.

And yes leg locks have taken over kinda. But it was because most BJJ practitioners never focused on it. Even Danaher said himself that for decades traditional BJJ had ignored the lower half of the body and the DDS won because they took advantage of something everyone else was ignoring. It wasn't that leg locks gotten better. It's that BJJ is finally giving leg locks their props.

Luta Livre, Judo and catch wrestling are light years ahead of most BJJ gyms in terms of leg locks. They gotta catch up.

Hell Dean Lister introduced Danaher to leg locks and his grappling started with catch wrestling. And I can post the video of Danaher saying it was Dean Lister who introduced me to leg locks.

"Why ignore 50% of the body?"

Leg locks has always been there. But it didn't evolved tremendously until the last 5 or 8 years.

Ken is good at submitting guys with no bjj background with heel hook back then. But bjj and leg locking have evolved leaps and bound since then

 

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The game has moved on an enormous amount in terms of leglocks, it's developed more than any other area of jiu jitsu. I'm only a blue belt but even I'm confident I wouldn't get leglocked by Ken (not saying I could outgrapple him overall). We just understand so much more about leglocks as a whole now and entire systems of grappling are built around them.

I'm a blue belt too actually. BJJ is playing catch up in the leg lock game.

Luta Livre was specializing in leg locks 40 years ago. People would throw shoes at BJJ vs Luta Livre fights because the Luta Livre fighters would catch the BJJ guy in leg locks and the crowd would call it cheap and say "stop playing footsies." This is all documented.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I'm a blue belt too actually. BJJ is playing catch up in the leg lock game.

Luta Livre was specializing in leg locks 40 years ago. People would throw shoes at BJJ vs Luta Livre fights because the Luta Livre fighters would catch the BJJ guy in leg locks and the crowd would call it cheap and say "stop playing footsies." This is all documented.

It's not playing catch up anymore. It's far exceeded it now, that was probably true ten years ago, but people like DDS, Lister, Hall etc have helped move the game on so much so quickly that it's without a doubt beyond it. There's no 90's Luta Livre guy who's going to trouble Garry Tonon in a leg exchange.

You also have to consider how easy it is to get hold of the information these days. The coaches that are training any UFC level fighters grappling will almost certainly have watched enter the system, Ryan's 50/50 stuff, Lachlan Giles etc.

I mean when was the last time a male got kneebarred at UFC level (I remember it happening a couple of times in WMMA).

 

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It's not playing catch up anymore. It's far exceeded it now, that was probably true ten years ago, but people like DDS, Lister, Hall etc have helped move the game on so much so quickly that it's without a doubt beyond it. There's no 90's Luta Livre guy who's going to trouble Garry Tonon in a leg exchange.

You also have to consider how easy it is to get hold of the information these days. The coaches that are training any UFC level fighters grappling will almost certainly have watched enter the system, Ryan's 50/50 stuff, Lachlan Giles etc.

I mean when was the last time a male got kneebarred at UFC level (I remember it happening a couple of times in WMMA).

This i can agree with.

I guess what I'm trying to say is Ken was a fantastic leg locker. 220-230 pounds and roided out of his mind against a rehydrated WW from today's era would probably end with Ken taking someone's leg home and mounting it on his wall. It's just not about technique but size, strength, aggression.

I did judo for a bit at a gym that actually rolled and I'll never forget being told explode into your submissions. If you think you got it go for it mentality. That gym closed and I moved to a BJJ gym (same gym where Eddie Wineland trains at) and it was about set ups and position over submission. Make sure you have it before you go for it mentality.

I do BJJ I'm not knocking it but I'm not worshipping at its altar either.

With that said in training you can seriously hurt someone with that Judo mentality and I've seen someone's leg literally bend at the knee the opposite direction at like 60° angle from a knee bar someone exploded into. That gym was pretty meathead.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

This i can agree with.

I guess what I'm trying to say is Ken was a fantastic leg locker. 220-230 pounds and roided out of his mind against a rehydrated WW from today's era would probably end with Ken taking someone's leg home and mounting it on his wall. It's just not about technique but size, strength, aggression.

I did judo for a bit at a gym that actually rolled and I'll never forget being told explode into your submissions. If you think you got it go for it mentality. That gym closed and I moved to a BJJ gym (same gym where Eddie Wineland trains at) and it was about set ups and position over submission. Make sure you have it before you go for it mentality.

I do BJJ I'm not knocking it but I'm not worshipping at its altar either.

With that said in training you can seriously hurt someone with that Judo mentality and I've seen someone's leg literally bend at the knee the opposite direction at like 60° angle from a knee bar someone exploded into. That gym was pretty meathead.

I agree with everything you're saying, but the only issue I'd take with it is that I think MMA fighters have the same mentality of going hard as fuck for things and trying to take them home. They can only do the intricate set ups that work when you're potentially being punched in the face at the same time and even then they have to do them extremely quickly.

Then at the same time I've also watched someone small like Tonon survive against Rousimar Palhares.

 

[TitoSchaubHighIQ]

Ken was great back in the day but the skill level currently is several tiers above what it was back in the day.

Every welterweight would confortably win UFC 1 and many fighters in the lower categories could have done it as well. Royce won and he was physically and technically inferior to most guys in the lower weight classes today.