Would every Welterweight fighter and up in the UFC today have won UFC 1?

[gono btw]

I mean when was the last time a male got kneebarred at UFC level (I remember it happening a couple of times in WMMA).

In a legit MMA environment [historically, UFC went from Vale Tudo to Light VT to Basic MMA], the sub attempt can/should also be part of the equation.

In terms of Scorin´System evolution, UFC´s is still laggin´ & can even be considered an anachronism [see the problematics raised b4 the main revisions, 2012 & 2016]

 

[CinemaKingdom]

I think people under-rate Ken.

They always do this. They remember the old version of him and think that is how he always was. Watch his lightening quick kneebar on Bas Rutten. That was prime Ken. Ken was 21-4 up until he was 32. From 33 on he went 7-13.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

In a legit MMA environment [historically, UFC went from Vale Tudo to Light VT to Basic MMA], the sub attempt can/should also be part of the equation.

In terms of Scorin´System evolution, UFC´s is still laggin´ & can even be considered an anachronism [see the problematics raised b4 the main revisions, 2012 & 2016]

I don't get how this relates to my question dude, sorry.

 

[gono btw]

I don't get how this relates to my question dude, sorry.

Because, historically, & despite the several revisions, the submission atttempt has never been truly rewarded in that specific Scorin´System.
Means that modern fighters & gyms, in that specific environment, see no reward in usin´ risky techniques [that may lead to easy reversals & cost the round].

In other words, you wont see much kneebar attempts in that cage, while, for instance, in different Scorin´Systems like ONE´s (also designed by the same Matt Hume), sub attempts are still part of the equation.
See recently: Moraes vs Geje Eustaquio

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Because, historically, & despite the several revisions, the submission atttempt has never been truly rewarded in that specific Scorin´System.
Means that modern fighters & gyms, in that specific environment, see no reward in usin´ risky techniques [that may lead to easy reversals & cost the round].

In other words, you wont see much kneebar attempts in that cage, while, for instance, in different Scorin´Systems like ONE´s (also designed by the same Matt Hume), sub attempts are still part of the equation.
See recently: Moraes vs Geje Eustaquio

I'm talking about people getting finished by one though.

 

[gono btw]

I'm talking about people getting finished by one though.

hmmm...yeah, but no sub attempt means no... sub.

In One or Pride, if I dont get the sub, I can at least get the reward in terms of scorin´ (& via the most important criteria).

 

[Hellowhosthat]

hmmm...yeah, but no sub attempt means no... sub.

In One or Pride, if I dont get the sub, I can at least get the reward in terms of scorin´ (& via the most important criteria).

I'm not arguing with that, I was just illustrating how leglocks have moved on since Ken's day.

 

[gono btw]

I'm not arguing with that, I was just illustrating how leglocks have moved on since Ken's day.

but you´re implyin´that this technique kindah no longer works at the highest level.
What Im tellin´you is that:

1- A technique´s relevance is intrinsically linked to a specific Scorin´System.

2- Even if Ken doesnt get the sub, in a specific, legit MMA environment where all facets are valued, he can still get the reward, scorin´-wise.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

but you´re implyin´that this technique kindah no longer works at the highest level.
What Im tellin´you is that:

1- A technique´s relevance is intrinsically linked to a specific Scorin´System.

2- Even if Ken doesnt get the sub, in a specific, legit MMA environment where all facets are valued, he can still get the reward, scorin´-wise.

I haven't seen anyone really get close to getting a kneebar in the UFC though. You rarely see it in high level BJJ either. It's all heel hooks these days.

 

[Fergelmince]

Nah, adesanya would probably get chocked out by Royce and/or Shamrock.

 

[gono btw]

I haven't seen anyone really get close to getting a kneebar in the UFC though. You rarely see it in high level BJJ either. It's all heel hooks these days.

Pretty much crazy to go for a kneebar given that Scorin´System.

Anyway, it´s not only about gettin´it, but attemptin´it.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Pretty much crazy to go for a kneebar given that Scorin´System.

Anyway, it´s not only about gettin´it, but attemptin´it.

Depends how close you get with it. If you're nowhere near getting it then it shouldn't score any differently to a punch that missed.

 

[gono btw]

Depends how close you get with it. If you're nowhere near getting it then it shouldn't score any differently to a punch that missed.

Check in UFC, how did you score that round, & how did them UFC Judges scored it?:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/benavidez-vs-figueiredo-round-1-scorin´.4087611/

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Check in UFC, how did you score that round, & how did them UFC Judges scored it?:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/benavidez-vs-figueiredo-round-1-scorin´.4087611/

I can't remember how I scored that round tbh.

 

[gono btw]

I can't remember how I scored that round tbh.

Well, despite that sub attempt [by far, the main technical sequence of that round], them UFC Judges scored it against the grappler...

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Well, despite that sub attempt [by far, the main technical sequence of that round], them UFC Judges scored it against the grappler...

Well I don't agree with that (I also disagreed with Mighty Mouse beating Torres back in the day) but I don't think that if the criteria got changed we'd suddenly see loads of kneebars, because it's just not a particularly effective sub at a high level.

 

[mmathurbator]

Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

FFS he's the only person to beat Bas that Bad never got revenge on. You don't beat Bas Rutten without being extremely skilled and good.

royce beat him.... that means demian maia beats him too.

 

[gono btw]

Well I don't agree with that (I also disagreed with Mighty Mouse beating Torres back in the day) but I don't think that if the criteria got changed we'd suddenly see loads of kneebars, because it's just not a particularly effective sub at a high level.

but that´s the point, mate... Why attempt any risky sub [armbar, kneebar etc...] if there´s no reward, scorin´wise...?

That´s the historical misconception between Scorin´Systems:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ntroversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

In Pride, Nog got the easy UD against Ricco, which would have been scored completely differently in UFC...

 

[Hellowhosthat]

but that´s the point, mate... Why attempt any risky sub [armbar, kneebar etc...] if there´s no reward, scorin´wise...?

That´s the historical misconception between Scorin´Systems:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

In Pride, Nog got the easy UD against Ricco, which would have been scored completely differently in UFC...

Armbars still get used because they have a decent chance of success. My issue isn't so much with the scoring system in this thread. It's the evolution of the leg game as it pertains to Ken. People do still go for leg subs in the UFC and they still go for risky ones, but they don't play the same leg game that Ken used to because grappling has simply moved on since then.

 

[textwarrior]

Wrestlers are most susceptible to leg locks.

Shamrock was a large, extremely strong leg lock specialist.

I can't picture any current WW beating prime Ken. He's ruining knees and crippling people.

FFS he's the only person to beat Bas that Bad never got revenge on. You don't beat Bas Rutten without being extremely skilled and good.

Ken was naturally 185 but on roids 220 ....one of his UFC fights was at 185. But Frank would have made it at 170. A prime Frank or Sakuraba (would had been awesome if he was in the UFC) are dangerous.