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Serious Movie Discussion XLI

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Yeah massive Oldboy fan. I recently introduced my gf to it and she loved it after initially wondering wtf she'd just watched. One of the most crazy and visceral movies ever made. I'm not a huge fan of the other 2 movies in the trilogy these days though.

My tastes over all have somewhat shifted from back in the early SMD days. I used to be big into emotionally deep but subtle foreign cinema. These days I've reverted to my taste as a kid. I like stuff to be slightly more light hearted and throw away. I've really liked a couple of the more recent blockbusters, Jurassic World was utterly ridiculous but really fun at the cinema, Force Awakens did an extremely good job of catering to both new and old Star Wars fans and I really enjoyed The Martian with it's light hearted take on sci-fi isolation. Really fun movies. Hateful 8 was so, so good. Despite Tarantino being a bit self indulgent dragging out the opening hour or so. I wasn't a big fan of The Revenant (think I mentioned this back along) but overall I've really liked a lot of the big films of late. Been a fairly frequent cinema goer and am looking forward to seeing Money Monster next week. I am even going to see Turtles 2 (I somehow enjoyed the first one despite it being objectively dreadful).

As for the top 25 list we cooked up all those years ago. There's some embarassing inclusions I guess (The Dark Knight?!) but the list is great. It's a list of favourites, not some grand list of most important films in cinema history. It speaks volumes of the average age and taste of the posters that were in here and there's nothing wrong with that!

My taste has changed too. I can't do boring.

I would never like There Will Be Blood now. I stopped paying attention to Foxcatcher 30 minutes in.

Did you like Looper? I would say that's the quintessential flemmy movie these days. Some kind of action-y film that has thoughtful themes and subtext.
 
Yo, where you been meng?

I haven't the foggiest as to whether the movies are similar to the comics.

I do think that they're enjoyable films by themselves, but they're the most fun when you know that world, i.e. if you watch the movies. Civil War functions on a lot of pre-existing conflict. There's a chance you might not care as much for the stakes, which will feel more convenient than earned.

Not sure if that helps.

I was in East Asia for about a month, and when I'm traveling I don't like to use the internet unless I absolutely need to, so not even any lurking sherdog and no watching movies. Both before and after the trip I've been in a movie drought but I'm trying to get in the swing of things.

That's good advice, I've decided to go a binge of all the MCU movies, except I think I can skip The Incredible Hulk since they replaced Norton and the film seems to be mostly irrelevant to the universe, even though they're bringing back William Hurt as General Ross.
 
Anybody see 'Nice Guys' yet?

I just got back and Im blown away. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was about as dark as it gets but i think this somehow takes it a full step further. Whats amazing tho is how it doesnt weigh the film down at all. Its still fun as hell and hilarious but gives you a lot to chew on.
 
Anybody see 'Nice Guys' yet?

I just got back and Im blown away. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was about as dark as it gets but i think this somehow takes it a full step further. Whats amazing tho is how it doesnt weigh the film down at all. Its still fun as hell and hilarious but gives you a lot to chew on.

I thought it was very good. Really liked the look of the film, the plot was solid, and Gosling was outright hilarious. The interplay between his character, Crowe's character, and March's daughter was pretty great throughout. In fact, that daughter character could have easily been annoying as shit but, credit to the young actress and to Shane, she wasn't.

My only complaint might be that the first half was overall more funny than the second, but there were still some great gags later in the film and, as you said, the darkly comedic nature of things and the mixture of zaniness and violence worked well.
 
Ha, I actually remember him as the only green name, too. Yes, he was an old school Plat.

Do platinum accounts not exist anymore?

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That.

It's funny, he's one of the things I love about it. His part is far meatier than Brad Pitts Jesse and he pulls it off really well. Kind of likable but creepy.

Apparently I'm a dead ringer for him as well. Not sure this is a good thing




I don't know your relation to these movies, but seeing the word "reverted" makes me think you're short shrifting your taste. It's not necessarily a step backwards if you embrace movies you used to love. I've posted this a lot, but I always think of this like the Zen thing Bruce Lee talked about in martial arts. He used to say: "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer just a punch, a kick no longer just a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick." LIke you, I spent some time exploring "deep" movies. That didn't make me a "better" film fan. It was just one step on the path. And thankfully, I came back around to Bruce and Seagal and BASEketball and all the shit I grew up loving and which I can now appreciate, with a critical eye wisened from years of general movie watching and intellectual growth, on deeper levels than ever before.


Yeah I guess it isn't necessarily a regression. More a realignment of what I want from a film. I've explored intellectual powerful cinema for years and years and now I'm at a stage where I just want to be entertained. And BASEketball is hilarious.

One thing I still can't get on board with is the appalling glut of super hero movies. For every half watchable one there are 10 awful ones. They make a fortune and so you can expect X-men 12. It's become a really tired genre.



I've only seen it once when it was in theaters, but I loved the fuck out of it and had no problems with the pacing. I'll keep this in mind when I rewatch it, though.

It's absolutely brilliant. Really top drawer tarantino and really any criticism about the pacing early on is unimportant as the film as a whole is so brilliant. I did notice a slight drag around half an hour in though. Oh, and Walton Goggins is quality.



I enjoyed the theater experience, and the opening action sequence was fantastic, but yeah, it was pretty meh overall. And Leo may have crawled his ass off, but I thought Hardy stole the show.

I agree the theater experience helped a lot. The film is extremely forgettable though. Hardy was cool but I still feel he hasn't quite found a role that really explores his potential. The Krays movie he did was close but the movie as a whole was so bad he was up against it.


The Dark Knight is a much more respectable choice than Oldboy at least.

Dark Knight isn't even the best Batman film. Let alone a suggestion for a top 25 movies list. I missed Snatch being on there. Haha that is ridiculous. Talk to me about Oldboy. What about it don't you like? Do you not enjoy the fight scene? The story line? The beautiful score? The performances? The craziness of the whole thing? What's the beef specifically?

Is it just me or does it seem that the Box Office for Ghostbusters is going to be more intresting to follow than the actual movie itself.:D

Hell, I'm not even a fan of the original. One of those 80's movies that -- while good -- I never got the supposedly great appeal of, alongside Back to the Future and ET.

To me those are 3 of the most important films of my life. Years of watching them over and over on VHS as a kid will do that to you


Intresting that you would say that since scores of old-school Star Wars fans are up-in-arms about how it's just a rehash of the original. And I kind of agree. While some of the new additions are cool (like the very striking iconography of the Empire) it still feels like an uninspiring films since iat heart it's just a rehash. And going back to pacing, the middle of the film is just a mess that I completely couldn't give a shit about, though the beginning and end are rather good.

Yeah there has been some backlash that it is almost a reboot of a New Hope. That's maybe a fair complaint. Lucas described it as a retro movie and he's kind of right. No bad thing for me. Really it serves as an introduction of the new hero (rey) and the new villain (Kylo Ren) and left me wanting to know how they would develop through the trilogy. Some of the cinematography is amazing, Lawrence of Arabia like. There's a few bum notes (the creatures escaping on Hans ship, the faux death star thing) but I think Abrams had an almost impossible task and did admirably. More hiighs than lows for me. Plus Daisy Ridley was a sublime find. She's incredible.


I find it intresting that would would label this under "light-hearted and throw away", since the racial subtext that Tarantino was going for was really the only thing that kept me invested in it from beginning-to-end. Tarantino always had a thing for cool dialoge making cool characters but here I didn't care as much as in his older flicks.

Tbh man that was just poorly written. It isn't throw away. I just kinda slapped it in the middle of that paragraph as I was thinking of movies I'd seen at the cinema recently.
 
My taste has changed too. I can't do boring.

I would never like There Will Be Blood now. I stopped paying attention to Foxcatcher 30 minutes in.

Did you like Looper? I would say that's the quintessential flemmy movie these days. Some kind of action-y film that has thoughtful themes and subtext.

Haha yeah maybe my attention span is decreasing. I have to say I do still love There Will Be Blood though. I still adore DDL and can watch it just for his ridiculously good performance. I haven't seen Looper but I will put it on my list as my first recommendation from SMD in about 6 years! Pressure is on for it to be good!
 
Haha yeah maybe my attention span is decreasing. I have to say I do still love There Will Be Blood though. I still adore DDL and can watch it just for his ridiculously good performance. I haven't seen Looper but I will put it on my list as my first recommendation from SMD in about 6 years! Pressure is on for it to be good!

What did you think of Mad Max Fury Road? Edge of Tomorrow?
 
@aquamanpunch

I watched Kung Fu vs Yoga yesterday. Hands down one of the nuttiest movies I've ever seen. europe, you should head over to Youtube and check it out. Two martial artists fight a blind criminal, a psycho Shaolin monk, a tranny hooker named "The Yin Yang Shemale," and a double-jointed Gumby-esque yoga master. Need I say more?

Time to hear if The Gauntlet really is an hidden Eastwood classic or a film that saddly stumbled a few meters into the sprint.

I actually watched that one for the first time a few years ago on @aquamanpunch's recommendation. I don't really remember much, though, other than thinking it was decent (better than his late Dirty Harry movies but not his early ones) so it'll be on the rewatch list. He also recommended The Rookie, which will be on the watch list. I've also never seen Coogan's Bluff, The Eiger Sanction (super stoked for this one), Tightrope, City Heat (Eastwood's squint and Burt Reynolds' mustache on the same screen :eek:), Pink Cadillac, or A Perfect World. I can't have that many outstanding Eastwood films on my list.

Of all the exploitation trends out there, Brucesploitation may be the weirdest.:D

I'll be watching Fists of Bruce Lee, Golden Dragon Silver Snake, Return of Bruce, Bruce Lee's Greatest Revenge, and Bruce's Deadly Fingers. I can't say I'm excited at the prospect, but I'm definitely curious o_O

It's been over a decade since I saw most of John Woo films, but "sucks"? "Sucks"!? Seriously!? Sucks!?

I watched A Better Tomorrow and its sequel because of True Romance. They both stunk ("stink" is one rung higher on the ladder than "suck"). I watched The Killer because of @aquamanpunch and it was fucking abysmal, seriously one of the worst movies ever (now that I'm thinking about it, I tore into that movie in a similar fashion to the Mad Max heresy, which may have contributed to his leaving :oops:). I watched Hard Target because of JCVD (with an added Lance Henriksen bonus). Decent but not very good, definitely near the bottom of the JCVD pile. I watched Broken Arrow for Travolta. It stunk. I used to love Face/Off for Travolta and Cage. Now it's literally unwatchable, although still not as bad as The Killer. And Mission: Impossible II is good in the beginning when he's ripping off Hitchcock's Notorious but it nosedives hard the second Woo switches from stealing from Hitchcock to doing his own shit.

As for Hard Boiled, I've only seen that hospital scene in a Youtube clip. Didn't make me want to watch the movie and risk another Woo catastrophe.

So yeah, he sucks.

Bullet in the Head is superb as well (but no... you probably luuuuuve the Stallone film with the same name, you evil-minded philistine:mad:).

Haven't seen (and probably never will see) Woo's film, but yes, I did luuuuuve Stallone's film. And I'm not just saying that to piss you off. I actually did really like that one.

I'm starting to suspect that my pacing-senses are just unortodox somehow. For example: I've always been majorly annoyed by the pacing and rythm in some of Orson Wells films like Citizen Kane or Touch of Evil (despite really liking them past that).

You're getting on my case for saying John Woo sucks and then you go on to bash Citizen Kane?

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There is definitively a disconnect between the Iron Man who gave the goverment the finger when they demanded that he'd hand over the tech for his armour, and the Iron Man who now wants regulations and state-control and all that.

I was worried about this. However...

Tony does come off as someone who has been traumatized in a way, due to the close-calls during Manhattan and Sovakia (not to mention that it was he who created the AI in the Second film, so blame for that kinda falls on him), as well as his failling love-life. He's also guilt-ridden due to all the collateral damage that the Avangers has caused. They have the obligatory scene where a mother of one of the victims come up and says "my baby died becuse of you blablabla!" Tony's desire to place the Avengers under the UN's thumb is basically a way for him to ease his guilty conciouss. It was he that took the decisions that cost innocent people their lives (through collateral damage), so if the decision would have been called by the UN instead, there wouldn't be any guilt over the dead since it wouldn't be them that took the decision. So responsibility for the dead and all the emotional repercussions that come with it would fall to the UN instead.

This makes it seem like the treatment of the contradiction is extremely fucking shrewd. I've noticed that terrorism is the lynchpin of the MCU. Doesn't matter the film, doesn't matter the realm. The plot is terrorism. Every time. And, strangely enough, it's yet to prove stale. The alien invasion in The Avengers, the flamers in Iron Man 3, the darklovers in Thor 2, HAL 2015 in The Avengers 2. Based on this description, it sounds like Civil War is dealing with worries prevalent in today's insufferably PC climate where Big Sticks are anathema despite the escalation of terrorism on a global scale.

I'm actually more interested in seeing it now. Thanks for the info.

I just find this stupid and short-sighted by Stark. Even assuming the UN is uncorrupt and well-meaning (which, as seen in the previous films, big-state organizations never seem to be), the end results would be the same. Even if the Avangers decided to fight in Sovakia on their own accord, or where ordered there by the UN, collateral damage would still occur. Those innocent civilians would still be dead. The only difference would be if the Avangers decided to go there by their own will or if they where ordered there. Who takes responsibility does not change who ends up dead.

Also (and this may just be conjecture on my part) Stark may be fine with being completely autonamous and accountable-only-to-himself. But I don't know if he would be fine extending that ultimate freedom to everyone else. He trusts himself to handle ultimate freedom, not sure he trusts everyone else with the same privilige.

I'll definitely come back to these points once I check it out for myself.

Basically, it's Stark's trying to atone for his sins so to speak.

Well, I loved him dealing with PTSD in Iron Man 3, and evidently much more than most people, so I'm hoping I'll enjoy his arc in Civil War.

Hope you get a chance to see this in the cinema. Airport scene was just bonkers.

I'm busy this week prepping for a talk and then I'm grading essays next week. If it's still showing the week after, I'll try to make it to a screening. I've yet to see anything from the MCU on the big screen, and given the way I've come around to these movies lately, this seems like the one to see.

That's why I'm going to mildly get into it with Friday Night Lights. Even though I'm kind of cool with you not liking it and the reasons why.

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You just robbed me of a throwdown. But I'll say this:

It's pretty gay that you don't love Back to the Future.

I may rob you of another one, but as far as Back to the Future goes: Those were movies that, like Star Wars, eluded me for much of my childhood. It wasn't until I was almost done with high school that I first watched them. Not only that, but that first time I watched them nearly a decade ago is to this day the only time I've watched them. They were awesome, I'm not denying that, but I didn't become obsessed with them, Back to the Future marathons didn't become an annual thing for me. For all I know, the next time I watch them, I'll love them even more. All I do know is that, when I first watched them, they didn't take over my world the way my favorite stuff tends to.

My computer mostly collects dust

The way people are with their phones today is the way I am with my laptop. The only time I've ever posted from my phone was last year when my laptop was being repaired. And it was a hell I never want to go back to.

Do platinum accounts not exist anymore?

They still exist. I just meant he was one way back in the day.

It's funny, he's one of the things I love about it.

Let's take a trip down memory lane:

I watched The Assassination of Jesse James last night and wow, what a mixed bag.

First of all, I think this is the perfect film to showcase Brad Pitt's limitations as an actor. I've never thought he was that great and is FAR from deserving consideration even as one of the best actors working today, let alone of all-time, and this film is an example of what he can't do.

However, I'm not blaming him for the performance. Andrew Dominik made a lot of mistakes in that film and I think the biggest one was the way he handled the Jesse James character. I don't even really know what he wanted from the character. Was he trying to juxtapose the mythical nature with his troubled human side? I honestly don't know. All I know is that, if that's what he was trying to do, he needed a better actor because Pitt couldn't pull it off.

The scene where Pitt is going to kill Garret Dillahunt is probably the best piece of acting I've ever seen from Pitt and I don't know why the director didn't make the character like that for the whole film. He should've used the mythical qualities of Jesse James instead of bringing them out for a scene or two and then switching back to making him a weird mix of a tough front hiding a troubled soul.

When Pitt was quiet, pensive, and menacing, it was really something else. A marvel to watch, but then he's given tons of lines and has to flip out like he did on the train and at the farm with the kid and with Casey Affleck near the end and he's not a good enough actor to pull off those scenes in a believable fashion and he brings the character down and the film down, too.

I also thought Affleck was pretty poor casting. I don't think he did a very good job and considering how important the character was to the film, a better actor would've helped a lot.

Overall, I'll say the film was a disappointment since there were so many choices made by the director that I didn't agree with at all, but I'll also say that I think the film should've won for Cinematography over There Will Be Blood. I can't recall ANY film over the last five or ten years shot better than this one, and the opening train robbery was one of the most magnificent scenes I've ever seen.

The whole film was a how-to when it comes to lighting and easily the best lighting in film since Barry Lyndon, and the combination of the lighting and the cinematography made the film a visual treat. Not enough to make me think any higher of the film, but the visuals definitely deserve all of the praise that they can possibly be given.
The way in which Robert Ford attaches himself to the James gang and idolises Jesse is perfectly executed and their relationship is one I found hard to take my eyes off.

This I disagree with. I thought their relationship left way too much to be desired. Where the director succeeded was in letting us see how strong Affleck's idolatry was. The scene where Sam Rockwell and Jeremy Renner are making fun of him and his book collection is great, but the scenes where Affleck and Pitt were actually together and were forming some semblance of a relationship were poor IMO.

Jesse seems increasingly aware of his impending death but lets events unfold, almost like he is painting his own picture. Although I'm not sure he could possibly have known his demise would come at the hands of Bob Ford.

I got this, too, but I think it could've been done better by doing a better job handling the character throughout. Scenes like when he's on the ice or about to cry after giving Affleck the gun seem random and out of place, and the randomness coupled with Pitt's weak performance hurt the resonance.

The acting in this movie is really top drawer. Brad Pitt as the eponymous Jesse is fantastic. He plays crazy rather well as seen in fight club and there is an air of instability about Jesse throughout the movie. Pitt though is unquestionably outshone by Casey Affleck (Robert Ford). Ford's eery and ambitious persona are pulled off perfectly. His study and obsession with Jesse subtle and unsettling and his character one that somehow you find yourself sympathising with. The supporting cast is also immense.

This I just disagree with vehemently since I don't think the acting was top drawer at all, and when Pitt "plays crazy" is when he's at his worst in the film. It's when he's quiet and staring through you as if he sees the gears in your mind working and knows what you're going to think of before you come to the conclusion yourself is him at his strongest---and scariest---and again, the fact that that wasn't played up more is the fault of the director, not Pitt himself.
Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word 'crazy' as it is ambiguous in this context and doesn't do the positives of the performance any justice, I really mean unhinged.

I think I got pretty accurately what you meant and I just disagreed with it. If you liken his character to a coin, he had the heads down---the bad ass outlaw, the terrifying killer---while the tails side of the coin was lacking severely---the wild man who can't control his emotions under stress, as evidenced in the train robbery or at the farm with the young boy, and the unraveling outlaw waiting and hoping for death.

His character was, essentially, two different people, and he only had the capability to pull off one of the two sides of the coin.
Pitt did a great job in Jesse James. Bullitt is digging a bit too deep to find flaws in his performance :D But I agree, the scenes where Jesse "goes crazy", Pitt didn't impress me that much. Overall his performance was top notch.

No digging was required. It was plain as day to me where his shortcomings were. I gave full praise where I felt it was deserving, namely the seen with Garret Dillahunt, which I seriously believe is possibly the best piece of acting in his entire career and brought to mind my recent post about not seeing too many looks as evil as Kevin Gage before he kills the prostitute in Heat. I think I've got another contender in Pitt when Jesse James stared daggers at you with those oddly and arrestingly piercing eyes.

That's what should've been highlighted by the director but I don't think he noticed what he had in Pitt's ability at slow, deliberate speaking and nonverbal acting. The more lines he's given and the more over-the-top he has to go, the worse he does. Writers and directors need to play to his strengths and as an actor he needs to know his strengths and weaknesses.

He shouldn't be going into DDL territory of big scale power emotion scenes. He doesn't have the range for it.
The acting was top notch, and I don't get how people can say Casey Affleck was a bad actor in this movie, he did EXACTLY what the character needed. Someone you at times felt sorry for, sometimes got annoyed with, and in the end hated. Robert Ford was a coward, and Affleck made him a coward.

First of all, I resented his being called a coward the whole time. What was cowardly about him? He seemed an okay kid who had a hero who wasn't deserving of his idolatry and when he feared he would be killed by said hero, he got him first.

If the director wanted to portray him as a coward with whom you couldn't possibly sympathize with, he failed miserably, and if he wanted us to identify with and feel sorry for Jesse James, he again failed miserably.

Like I said: He was all over the place and I'm not entirely sure what he wanted out of his characters, and the weak acting in places didn't help him any.
Pitt is best when he's "hysterical" imo, the end scene in Se7en where he's going from crying to anger is fucking excellent. Not to mention 12 Monkeys and Fight Club.

I don't think it's possible for me to disagree more vehemently than I do with this. Brad Pitt is TERRIBLE when he has to act like that. He ruined the emotional impact of that final scene in Seven. It's so horrific that it packs a hell of a punch anyway, but his acting almost ruined it.

The less dialogue he has to say and the more he can use facial expressions and body language, the better.

We went a few more rounds, but that's all that's left from the original thread.

And BASEketball is hilarious.

Hands down one of the funniest movies ever made. Still don't really like South Park, but movie-wise, those guys are fucking geniuses.

One thing I still can't get on board with is the appalling glut of super hero movies. For every half watchable one there are 10 awful ones. They make a fortune and so you can expect X-men 12. It's become a really tired genre.

Eh, I've recently embraced this genre. And the MCU and the X-Men franchise are responsible for some of the strongest offerings. What do your rankings look like for the superhero movies you've seen?

It's absolutely brilliant. Really top drawer tarantino and really any criticism about the pacing early on is unimportant as the film as a whole is so brilliant.

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Oh, and Walton Goggins is quality.

He was great in The Shield, but in a Tarantino movie surrounded by all those heavy hitters, I sure as shit didn't expect him to steal the show the way he did. Other than the Dingus story, the hardest I laughed was when he called Russell "Mr. Face." It was such an odd line but the way he punched it out caught me completely off-guard :D

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a403a3b2-b29d-47a8-bf10-66ac0a236a23

Hardy was cool but I still feel he hasn't quite found a role that really explores his potential. The Krays movie he did was close but the movie as a whole was so bad he was up against it.

Oh, God, Lawless was a fucking disaster.

Lawless was one of the most frustrating movie experiences I've had in a while. The premise was great, the cast was great, but the entire script is nothing but bad decisions. Every way they could've botched a character or a plot point, they not only succeeded in botching it, but they botched it as badly as anyone could've imagined in their worst nightmare. First off, they made Shia (who bulked up for the role so he could better fit in alongside Tom Hardy) a whiny little wannabe bitch, which was a retarded dynamic, and second, they made the ultimate revenge payoff one of the dumbest scenes in contemporary cinema. Hardy's character was consistently cool, but even his character got royally fucked by the film's end. I was so infuriated by the end of it, what was at the start one of my most anticipated movies became by the end an entirely forgettable crapfest.

As for Hardy finding a "key" role, I still think his Bane is the shit. Obviously, Ledger's Joker will always be pretty much the only role anyone will ever talk about in Nolan's entire Batverse when it comes to great acting, but Hardy did a tremendous job bringing Bane to life. Everything about that character, you can see it in Hardy's eyes. I loved the little quirks he gave the character (his polite manner, the way he'd hold his collar, etc.), but the fact that he was able to do so much with his face despite so much of his face being covered by that mask never ceases to amaze me. That look he shoots Dr. Pavel in the plane in the beginning ("We had to find out what he told you" / "Nothing, I said nothing" / *Bane Death Stare*), if it were possible to kill somebody with a glance, that's the glance that'd do it. And I love that his eyes move to him before he actually turns his head, such a predatory move where the second he hears his prey, he's got eyes on him. Little shit like that is what makes that character, and it's Hardy's brilliance that made it happen. It's too bad the haters were out in full force for TDKR, otherwise more people might've recognized his - and the film's - brilliance.

Dark Knight isn't even the best Batman film.

Either I forgot or I blocked it out, but please don't tell me you're one of those Batman Begins geeks who prefer ninjas and Liam Neeson speaking fortune cookie to Batman-meets-Heat :rolleyes:

Talk to me about Oldboy. What about it don't you like? Do you not enjoy the fight scene? The story line? The beautiful score? The performances? The craziness of the whole thing? What's the beef specifically?

See, this is where access to the original thread would come in handy, as I only watched it once, hated it, ranted about it, got shit for it, and never looked back. All I remember is I thought it was stupid as fuck, boring as fuck, and the hallway fight was retarded as fuck. Since that lone viewing, I have rewatched the hallway fight scene on more than one occasion, and it's still retarded as fuck. The only good part is the possible Enter the Dragon reference with the elevator at the end (I say "possible" because that movie sucked so hard that I can't imagine it being cool enough to even reference something as cool as Enter the Dragon).

I haven't seen Looper but I will put it on my list as my first recommendation from SMD in about 6 years! Pressure is on for it to be good!

And on that film, at least, Flemmy and I are in almost complete agreement (we both think it's awesome, he just thinks it's way more awesome).

What did you think of Mad Max Fury Road? Edge of Tomorrow?

*Waiting for answer*

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Edge of tomorrow is awesome !! Im gonna watch Triple 9 tonight .... i hope it lives to the hype

edit : after watching 15 minutes or so of Triple 9 i allready know im in for something good :D
 
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What did you think of Mad Max Fury Road? Edge of Tomorrow?

Hang my head in shame. I've not seen either. I've had Fury Road for ages but just haven't got to it yet. I really like the MM films too. Aussie B-movie craziness. Plus for all Mel Gibsons multiple flaws as a human. His younger self was brilliant.
 
Let's take a trip down memory lane:


We went a few more rounds, but that's all that's left from the original thread.

That's so funny reading back now. Me Johner and HH laying down the law! Glad you liked the train robbery and the cinematography. I think it's fairly acceptabe to disagree of Casey Affleck's performance. Sometimes an actors efforts just don't work for you personally I guess.

Hands down one of the funniest movies ever made. Still don't really like South Park, but movie-wise, those guys are fucking geniuses.

Their movies are incredible. Team America is absolute genius. I think South Park is very hit or miss but when it's hit it can be amazingly funny and even poignant and the most twisted of ways.


Eh, I've recently embraced this genre. And the MCU and the X-Men franchise are responsible for some of the strongest offerings. What do your rankings look like for the superhero movies you've seen?

Honestly I'd struggle to do a top ten. Nearly all of the ones I like are nostalgia based. More on that below.


He was great in The Shield, but in a Tarantino movie surrounded by all those heavy hitters, I sure as shit didn't expect him to steal the show the way he did. Other than the Dingus story, the hardest I laughed was when he called Russell "Mr. Face." It was such an odd line but the way he punched it out caught me completely off-guard :D

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a403a3b2-b29d-47a8-bf10-66ac0a236a23

Yeah he was amazing as Shane in The Shield. Great part too especially towards the end. Very cool show. Yeah he did steal the show didn't he. Tarantino used him to a lesser degree in Django (another incredible movie) too so it was cool to see him given a much meatier part.


Oh, God, Lawless was a fucking disaster.

I'm guessing that's what you guys called 'Legend'. Not sure why they switched the name for you. It attempts to glamourise and shine up a really grotty story about two horrible men. What you end up with is the extremely shallow movie that doesn't tick any boxes a good crime flick should. Massive waste of time although it did have a vague hook in the form of Hardy taking on the role of both twins. Neither character was properly explored though. Dreadful film.

As for Hardy finding a "key" role, I still think his Bane is the shit. Obviously, Ledger's Joker will always be pretty much the only role anyone will ever talk about in Nolan's entire Batverse when it comes to great acting, but Hardy did a tremendous job bringing Bane to life. Everything about that character, you can see it in Hardy's eyes. I loved the little quirks he gave the character (his polite manner, the way he'd hold his collar, etc.), but the fact that he was able to do so much with his face despite so much of his face being covered by that mask never ceases to amaze me. That look he shoots Dr. Pavel in the plane in the beginning ("We had to find out what he told you" / "Nothing, I said nothing" / *Bane Death Stare*), if it were possible to kill somebody with a glance, that's the glance that'd do it. And I love that his eyes move to him before he actually turns his head, such a predatory move where the second he hears his prey, he's got eyes on him. Little shit like that is what makes that character, and it's Hardy's brilliance that made it happen. It's too bad the haters were out in full force for TDKR, otherwise more people might've recognized his - and the film's - brilliance.

I turned TDKR off about an hour or so in. Perhaps a bit more. It just really bored me. I wish I could elaborate more but it felt so bloated and grey.

Either I forgot or I blocked it out, but please don't tell me you're one of those Batman Begins geeks who prefer ninjas and Liam Neeson speaking fortune cookie to Batman-meets-Heat :rolleyes:

Nah the best Batman is the one with Arnie as Mr Freeze. 'CHILL OUT'. Cinema gold. I kid of course. I much prefer the Tim Burton one and I don't even like Tim Burton. I prefer Keaton to Bale's rough sounding Batman. I equally enjoy his Bruce Wayne. Tim Burtons Gotham pisses all over the dull New York/Gotham of the Nolan flicks. I love Jack Nicholsons Joker. Prince did the OST! The whole movie is gothic as hell and screams Batman. It's wacky and a true comic book film without too many pretentions or attempts at being viewed as 'dark' or edgy. I grew up with it so it's nostalgic for me. It's my favourite Batman movie by a distance.


See, this is where access to the original thread would come in handy, as I only watched it once, hated it, ranted about it, got shit for it, and never looked back. All I remember is I thought it was stupid as fuck, boring as fuck, and the hallway fight was retarded as fuck. Since that lone viewing, I have rewatched the hallway fight scene on more than one occasion, and it's still retarded as fuck. The only good part is the possible Enter the Dragon reference with the elevator at the end (I say "possible" because that movie sucked so hard that I can't imagine it being cool enough to even reference something as cool as Enter the Dragon).

Haha 'got shit for it'. Good times. Sounds like the only way to discuss it again is if you were to watch it again. Tbh I saw it again recently for the first time in years and still loved it although not as much as when I was deep into my edgy foreign cinema phase! It's a dark, twisted movie that is very much one of a kind.

*Waiting for answer*

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I'm on the case. With Mad Max at least. It's been on my list for ages
 
Hang my head in shame. I've not seen either. I've had Fury Road for ages but just haven't got to it yet. I really like the MM films too. Aussie B-movie craziness. Plus for all Mel Gibsons multiple flaws as a human. His younger self was brilliant.

Oh man. I envy that you still get to watch them for a first time. Both are awesome.
 
I watched The Revenant this morning. I dunno- just seemed okay like 7/10ish. I should watch Ravenous again to see which of these two I like better.
 
I watched The Revenant this morning. I dunno- just seemed okay like 7/10ish. I should watch Ravenous again to see which of these two I like better.

It never struck me as great while I was sitting through it, but I definitely thought it was pretty damn good. The bear attack scene, the cinematography and DiCaprio and Hardy elevated it for me. Hardy really impressed me in certain scenes. That moment when he is looking for any reason to justify putting Glass down to spare himself some trouble really struck me. When he tell Glass to blink as a signal that he wants to be mercy-killed and then is just staring waiting for that blink- that was some pretty tense, fucked up stuff.

I also thought that kid from We're The Millers, Will Poulter, was really solid in a serious role.
 
I finally saw The Yellow Sea.
Knife & Axe fights galore,not even The Raid 2 can compete.
 
When he tell Glass to blink as a signal that he wants to be mercy-killed and then is just staring waiting for that blink- that was some pretty tense, fucked up stuff.

What was so striking to me was how Tom Hardy's acting just informed you of the guys lifestory. Just from his mannerism and the way Hardy talked you could tell that the guys life had been an absolutey misery up until that point, as if every day he'd lived had been nothing but drudgery, scraping-by, and drowning themselves in booze and harlots to compensate.

That's good acting right there.

Two martial artists fight a blind criminal, a psycho Shaolin monk, a tranny hooker named "The Yin Yang Shemale," and a double-jointed Gumby-esque yoga master. Need I say more?

Hands down one of the funniest movies ever made

Smells like a contradiction to me:p

BASEketball is quite funny but funnies movie ever made? I can't even muster enough breath to scream heresy about that. I'll check out Kung Fu vs Yoga some day to be sure.



I actually watched that one for the first time a few years ago on @aquamanpunch's recommendation

Huh, you previously asked me my opinion of it since you claimed that you hadn't seen it. Must be some mistake then.

This is one of those movies I feel ashamed for never having seen. I love action, I love Eastwood, yet for whatever reason that one's always eluded me. What'd you end up thinking of it?

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/serious-movie-discussion-xxxvix.3003143/page-49

The Rookie

Yeah it's a fun buddy cop movie. Pretty typical but Eastwood's grimey ass exalts it.

Tightrope

One of those movies I've seen in pieces on TV but it never really catched me.

A Perfect World

I've meet so many people who speak about that movie with bulging eyes and frothing mouths. Seems a lot of people consider it some sort of masterpiece.

I'll be watching Fists of Bruce Lee, Golden Dragon Silver Snake, Return of Bruce, Bruce Lee's Greatest Revenge, and Bruce's Deadly Fingers. I can't say I'm excited at the prospect, but I'm definitely curious o_O

Bruce Lee's Greatest Revenge has some schlocky, nonsensical B-movie charm to it but in terms of Bruceploitation it's somewhat lacking. Basically one of those movies where it's just fights from beginning to end. Fists of Bruce Lee is definitively more entertaining and has a more solid production behind it... I'd actually recommend Clones of Bruce Lee if you're looking for an oversight of the Bruceploitation wave since it's sort of an all-star cast of Bruce impersonators. Bruce Li, Dragon Li, Bruce Lai, and Bruce Thai (I swear to God the first time I heared that there was a guy called Bruce Thai my brain melted).

However, if you're going to talk about Bruce Lee impersonations, then why not talk about the most successful one of all, Sonny Chiba? Sure, he is the most successful because Sonny infused more of his own style and sensibilities into his movies than any other. But those ticks, noises and mannerisms are Bruce-pilfered for sure!

Have you seen a lot of Sonny Chiba outside the myriad of Tarantino references btw? Personally I love the guy. The Street Fighter series, Bodyguard Kiba (where the Ezekiel speech from Pulp Fiction was inspired from), Karate Warriors, great stuff.

I watched A Better Tomorrow and its sequel because of True Romance. They both stunk ("stink" is one rung higher on the ladder than "suck"). I watched The Killer because of @aquamanpunch and it was fucking abysmal, seriously one of the worst movies ever (now that I'm thinking about it, I tore into that movie in a similar fashion to the Mad Max heresy, which may have contributed to his leaving :oops:). I watched Hard Target because of JCVD (with an added Lance Henriksen bonus). Decent but not very good, definitely near the bottom of the JCVD pile. I watched Broken Arrow for Travolta. It stunk. I used to love Face/Off for Travolta and Cage. Now it's literally unwatchable, although still not as bad as The Killer. And Mission: Impossible II is good in the beginning when he's ripping off Hitchcock's Notorious but it nosedives hard the second Woo switches from stealing from Hitchcock to doing his own shit.

As for Hard Boiled, I've only seen that hospital scene in a Youtube clip. Didn't make me want to watch the movie and risk another Woo catastrophe.

So yeah, he sucks.

Bullitt. One day I will amass myself a Scrooge McDuck-styled fortune and use it's wealth solely to make your life miserable.

You're getting on my case for saying John Woo sucks and then you go on to bash Citizen Kane?

Pacing and rythm means the world to me. The fact that Orson Wells films can be so enthralling and fascinating despite all that is a testemony to what a filmmaking thaumaturgist that man was.


This makes it seem like the treatment of the contradiction is extremely fucking shrewd. I've noticed that terrorism is the lynchpin of the MCU.


Every time I hear "collateral damage" all I think about is "Drones. Drones. Drones. They are talking about Drones....... Drones. Drones. Drones."

And yes, it has become really samey. And it's not even a good subtext either since the real-world dynamic about terrorism, drones, private-freedom, and national sovereignty are so incredibly more complex and multifaceted. The subtext is done at such a simplified level that I just can't find it stimulating.

And it was a hell I never want to go back to.

Oh, God, Lawless was a fucking disaster.


Amen.


As for Hardy finding a "key" role, I still think his Bane is the shit

I think that The Dark Knight Rises is largely a piece of crap but even I admit that Hardy is awesome in it.

See, this is where access to the original thread would come in handy, as I only watched it once, hated it, ranted about it, got shit for it, and never looked back. All I remember is I thought it was stupid as fuck, boring as fuck, and the hallway fight was retarded as fuck. Since that lone viewing, I have rewatched the hallway fight scene on more than one occasion, and it's still retarded as fuck. The only good part is the possible Enter the Dragon reference with the elevator at the end (I say "possible" because that movie sucked so hard that I can't imagine it being cool enough to even reference something as cool as Enter the Dragon).


It's a modern day Greek Tragedy. Incest and all. And that's another one of those films where my fandom is nowhere near the median at all.

I'm guessing that's what you guys called 'Legend'. Not sure why they switched the name for you. It attempts to glamourise and shine up a really grotty story about two horrible men. What you end up with is the extremely shallow movie that doesn't tick any boxes a good crime flick should. Massive waste of time although it did have a vague hook in the form of Hardy taking on the role of both twins. Neither character was properly explored though. Dreadful film.


I don't think you're giving Hardy enough props. Despite how trite and stock and wrong-headed the script was he was still so good that he made it watchable. To make something like Legend watchable is a major achievement on its own.
 
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Team America is absolute genius.

I was very late to that party. Growing up, I loved Orgazmo and BASEketball, but given my general antipathy towards South Park, I was never particularly keen to see Team America. Once I did, though, it blew my fucking mind. I wish they'd make another movie, but I imagine the success of South Park on TV and The Book of Mormon on stage makes it hard to change things up.

Honestly I'd struggle to do a top ten.

So you're a superhero hater, huh? I can't deny that there's a part of me that resents the emphasis on non-human heroes in contemporary action movies (what does it say about us that we enjoy watching movies where 99% of the humans on the screen do nothing but run around like headless chickens to be killed in explosions or saved by a roided up GI Joe action figure, a guy in a flying metal suit, and a Thunder God?) but the way these movies construct action sequences and the way they thread emotionality and political subtexts through the action, I also can't deny that most of them are damn good at what they do.

Django (another incredible movie)

Django was incredible until Waltz dies. From that moment on, it's incredibly retarded. What was a 9/10 movie for like 90% of the running time ended up a 6/10 by the time the end credits rolled.

I'm guessing that's what you guys called 'Legend'.

My mistake. I thought you were talking about that movie he did where he played one of three redneck brother bootleggers. That one's called Lawless. If you're talking about the new one where he's doing the dual role thing, that's Legend. I haven't seen that one.

I turned TDKR off about an hour or so in.

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You turned off the greatest movie of the millennium a third of the way in? Ok, how about this: You get your ass in gear and watch The Dark Knight Rises and I'll rewatch Oldboy and we'll come back and compare notes. You up for that?

Nah the best Batman is the one with Arnie as Mr Freeze. 'CHILL OUT'. Cinema gold. I kid of course. I much prefer the Tim Burton one and I don't even like Tim Burton. I prefer Keaton to Bale's rough sounding Batman. I equally enjoy his Bruce Wayne. Tim Burtons Gotham pisses all over the dull New York/Gotham of the Nolan flicks. I love Jack Nicholsons Joker. Prince did the OST! The whole movie is gothic as hell and screams Batman. It's wacky and a true comic book film without too many pretentions or attempts at being viewed as 'dark' or edgy. I grew up with it so it's nostalgic for me. It's my favourite Batman movie by a distance.

I was just curious about your Nolan rankings, not your overall Batman rankings. Like you, I prefer Keaton to Bale. As for how I'd rank them overall, I know for sure The Dark Knight Rises would be #1, but I still have so much trouble deciding which is better, The Dark Knight or Batman Returns. Batman is one I was honestly never really crazy about. What you call gothic, I call camp. And Prince having done the soundtrack is not a point in its favor. It's too goofy for me. Batman Returns, on the other hand, now that's gothic. What's more, that's German Expressionism. Burton's Expressionistic influence shines through the most in the sequel, plus that's the one that has my favorite image/moment/shot/scene/anything in the entire Batman mythology: Bruce Wayne sitting alone in the dark frozen like a statue (in a Rodin's Thinker type pose) until the Bat Signal illuminates the sky and the light comes through the window, hitting him and bringing him to his feet as if it was literally bringing him to life. What Nolan tries to convey at the end of Batman Begins with Katie Holmes' speech about Bruce's "mask" being his Bruce Wayne rich guy smile while his Batman mask is his real face, Burton accomplishes that with no words, just with imagery. It's filmmaking of the highest order.

And fuck the haters, both Batman Forever and Batman & Robin are great. The former is especially great. I always loved Jim Carrey's Riddler, and Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face? That opening sequence with him talking to the tied up security guard is fucking aces.



I watched The Revenant this morning. I dunno- just seemed okay like 7/10ish.

Well, seeing as you're the Tarkovsky guy, religion showing up in movies should be old hat for you, but with The Revenant in particular, what did you think of the religious message the movie seemed to be pushing?

The relevant part from my much longer initial write-up:

Beyond the aesthetics and beyond the narrative, if you try to find an overarching philosophical/theological thesis - and, given how close this film is to Malickland, there must be something philosophical/theological going on - please let me know what you come up with, because what I got out of it was an extremely silly, conservative, and heavy-handed "No God = No morality = You suck = You should die = You die" message [...] I personally couldn't decide - because it felt like Iñárritu couldn't decide/had no idea/didn't care - whether the narrative was ultimately a matter of karmic justice or divine retribution. That one Indian dude who he meets up with says that line about revenge being in God's hands, not his, which DiCaprio repeats at the end (which didn't make any sense because Hardy was very much in DiCaprio's hands and he, not God, chose to let Hardy die not by his own hand, which he would've been able to ethically tolerate, but by the hand of the Indians he despised, which seems like one last blow to Hardy for what he did, which seems more personal than divine intervention), and that would seem to convey a sense of divine intervention. Yet, Hardy is portrayed to be Godless and (thus?) cruel, and because DiCaprio is righteous and Hardy is not, DiCaprio gets his revenge and lives while Hardy dies.

What was so striking tome was how Tom Hardy's acting just informed you of the guys lifestory. Just his mannerism and the way Hardy talked you could tell that the guys life had been an absolutey misery up until that point, as if every day he'd lived had been nothing but drudgery, scraping-by, and drowning themselves in booze and harlots to compensate.

QFT.

BASEketball is quite funny but funnies movie ever made? I can't even muster enough breath to scream heresy about that.

The only possible heresy here is saying BASEketball isn't one of the funniest movies ever made.

Huh, you previously asked me my opinion of it since you claimed that you hadn't seen it.

I've been making the same fucking mistake for years. I always initially think the one with Charlie Sheen is The Gauntlet, then I look it up and find that it's not, then I realize the one with Charlie Sheen is The Rookie. I probably did that there and asked what you thought of The Gauntlet thinking it was the one with Charlie Sheen, which is The Rookie, which is the one I haven't seen.

Bruce Lee's Greatest Revenge has some schlocky, nonsensical B-movie charm to it but in terms of Bruceploitation it's somewhat lacking. Basically one of those movies where it's just fights from beginning to end. Fists of Bruce Lee is definitively more entertaining and has a more solid production behind it... I'd actually recommend Clones of Bruce Lee if you're looking for an oversight of the Bruceploitation wave since it's sort of an all-star cast of Bruce impersonators. Bruce Li, Dragon Li, Bruce Lai, and Bruce Thai (I swear to God the first time I heared that there was a guy called Bruce Thai my brain melted).

I probably won't have time to watch The Clones of Bruce Lee ahead of the talk, but I'll get to it eventually on your recommendation (and since it sounds like The Avengers of the Brucesploitationverse :D)

Have you seen a lot of Sonny Chiba outside the myriad of Tarantino references btw?

No. And that's because, first off, he is an awful martial artist, and second, his movies all suck. I tried watching the Street Fighter movies a couple of years ago. They're more fun than John Woo, but man, they're terrible. And he's beyond over-the-top. There isn't a word or a phrase to describe his lunacy. And just some of the ugliest fucking fighting to ever be filmed.

Bullitt. One day I will amass myself a Scrooge McDuck-styled fortune and use it's wealth solely to make your life miserable.

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And yes, it has become really samey.

Except, for you, it's become samey-bad. I think it's samey-good. They're working through the same material but in different and interesting ways. Thor 2 was especially cool with the attack on Asgard, but I know you'd disagree. . .
 
@Bullitt68

so true about Hardy as Bane. He killed it. Weird that he doesn't seem to get more credit. While it might not have been as overall memorable or impressive as Ledger, it's still definitely the second best performance in that trilogy in my opinion- and you have a lot of quality actors doing good work in those films.
 
I may rob you of another one, but as far as Back to the Future goes: Those were movies that, like Star Wars, eluded me for much of my childhood. It wasn't until I was almost done with high school that I first watched them. Not only that, but that first time I watched them nearly a decade ago is to this day the only time I've watched them. They were awesome, I'm not denying that, but I didn't become obsessed with them, Back to the Future marathons didn't become an annual thing for me. For all I know, the next time I watch them, I'll love them even more. All I do know is that, when I first watched them, they didn't take over my world the way my favorite stuff tends to.

I saw it as a kid, but it's not one of my child nostalgia films like The Goonies or The Breakfast Club.

It was around when i was twenty and having seen it 10 or so times (cause it's always on tv) that i was just like, "ya know what? I take this movie for granted. I can't find a single false note in the whole thing."

Not even a minor gripe with a lame line, a goofy delivery from a minor character, nothing. The action, the comedy, the drama, the adventure of it...the music...it's all handled so well.

That must've been the mother of all "that was unexpectedly awesome" movies when it came out. On paper, it's no Jurassic Park in scale or spectacle. It's not cool or edgy or sexy like a Tarantino or Nolan movie.

I cannot imagine seeing a trailer for it and thinking it looked like a good movie, nevermind a perfect one, or one that the world will love and never forget it.

But yeah it wasn't an immediate recognition for me. That's the kind of movie you watch 100 times...because it cannot get old. It just gets more charming.

I watched a documentary on it and everyone being interviewed had the same slow, hesitant realization about it that it was, in fact, a perfect movie.
 
Nice to see you guys enjoying a bit of a reunion.

Everybody Wants Some
is Linklater's best since, I don't know, Bernie.

Mustang was my surprise movie of the year. See it.

Green Room - that's how it's done.

Gritting my teeth through these comments on Civil War and its apparent poor motivations. So much to say. No fucking time. Maybe later in the week.

Also, did everyone just completely miss the fucking amazing post by @Caveat on Gone Girl? Here it is again, below in spoilers. Nice thoughts on Good Will Hunting too. Love the point about the more famous emotional moments (park bench, story resolution) being explored without a good grasp on the truth, something I touched on in a recent exchange with @Bullitt68. I love the movie, but it's only the portrayals, character exhibitions that I come for anymore: real friends, the nature of genius. The catharsis don't hold up so good anymore.

Watched Good Will Hunting for the first time tonight. It wasn't as feel-good as I expected to be - actually there were more than a few things I didn't like about it. Damon's character was far too superhuman, I never felt really enamoured by his girlfriend or budding romance, and the main conflict didn't really come into focus for me until later in the film (and even then never really felt urgent at all).

I thought there were some good questions asked about what to do with genius and what it means to live with passion. In the scene where he burns the math proof and the professor comes racing over to it, I thought I saw some envy in Will as he watched someone act toward something they felt was important. Did he ever get around to feeling that himself? He liked the girl but whatever grander conclusions he came to about his life weren't shared with us. Williams made a good case for not living your life around a singular pursuit but it felt like a cop-out when he pulled the "you haven't actually done this" card a hundred times on the park bench. He didn't come close to being as inspiring as he was in Dead Poet's Society and a few of the counseling sessions - including the breakthrough one - felt very awkward.

Anyway, it's not one I'm going to wake up thinking about tomorrow, and I had expected it to be more thoughtful.

My re-watch of Gone Girl, on the other hand, was excellent. I felt far less removed from the chaos of the second half when I was actively anticipating it. I realized that after the first watch I never questioned whether Nick really ever got violent with Amy. He denies it in front of the cops, though with some hesitation, and when she's describing how she wrote her journal she only refers to the happy early times as the true ones. Just because we saw the flashback doesn't mean it necessarily happened, imo, though I entirely believe that she witnessed the kiss between Nick and his mistress when we saw that scene unfold in her memory.

I'm curious about how we're supposed to feel about Amy once things are all said and done. I think the easy answer is that she's a psycho bitch, and that she balked at suicide only to return to Nick empty-handed to use him as another part of her developing legacy. But if we give a little credence to her claim that she returned to the version of Nick he presented in the interview she watched, maybe she doesn't have to be a complete lost cause. She still expresses a desire for intimacy with Nick in their private moments, which shows a pretty intense commitment if she's just acting to manipulate him. But her statement about marriage at the end threatens any sympathy I wanted to have for her.

I think she over-reacted initially towards Nick and tried to run away from a version of herself that she felt she hadn't been in control of creating - the same way her childhood was developed without her input in the fictional stories of Amazing Amy. In trying to escape that version of herself she pushed too far in the opposite direction and gave up maintaining any sense of virtue whatsoever - but I'm not sure that's who she really wanted to be either, it was just a reaction. Then she killed Dessie, who really was a fucked up weirdo trying to imprison her in a much worse way than Nick ever did (his line about not forcing himself on her was especially chilling as a veiled threat). She returns to her home with Nick with a new sense of power of him. But does this reversal put her in a position more like Nick's previous one, or Dessie's?

People in intimate relationships should expect to be changed by them. To be threatened by that is to misunderstand what you're getting into. Marriage shouldn't be a struggle between people trying to control each other. It should be people trying to improve themselves, and each other, through each other. Amy took the victimization thing too far and her local audience stepped out of the way to let it happen. There had to be a feminism angle there somewhere, lol.

I'll stop there, but wanted to say that I was glad I put it on to think over a second time after the discussion of re-watches earlier itt.
 
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