Muscle Strength Ratios and Muscle Balance

[Adnan Adil]

Everybody is talking about the importance of the posterior chain and how it shouldn't be neglected because with the anterior one. I think that I do enough work for my back and hams, but from few months I've started to worry that I am working too much them. I feel my upper back and neck a little stiff. What could happen if I just keep pulling more than pushing?
Also everybody talks about push to pull ratios in vertical and horizontal aspect, but what should be ratios between the vertical and horizontal abilities? Is there any connection at all? I have hear that too much vertical pulling can round your shoulders, but I don't is this connected with the horizontal pulling and pushing.
So basically what could happen if I have too strong back compared with chest? And more powerful hams than quads?
Also what about the vertical pushing and pulling- should I do it in both directions upwards (military press and pull ups, for instance) and downwards (dips and upright row) or it doesn't matter much?

 

[-Magua-]

Charles Poliquin territory.
Structural balance is a sound approach in improving strength, performance, and preventing injury.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/achieving-structural-balance

 

[Adnan Adil]

Charles Poliquin territory.
Structural balance is a sound approach in improving strength, performance, and preventing injury.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/achieving-structural-balance

Thanks, man, I will check it out. T Nation has good articles.

 

[gspieler]

Sounds like you’re over-analyzing this IMHO. The reason PC training is so emphasized in the S&C community is because (1) so many injuries are associated with weak hams/glutes/spinal erectors/upper back muscles, (2) for whatever reason, a lot of lifters seem to train movements that emphasize the muscles on the anterior aspect of the body(mainly benching) disproportionately high to the time/energy they train PC-dominant movements.

A sensible approach is to include a vertical push and pull, a horizontal push and pull, squats, and either DL or cleans, as staples of your training regimen. Most, if not all, of these problems take care of themselves, with a common sense, balanced approach to training(save any inherent deficits/imbalances a lifter may have).

Edit: also goes without saying, but strong hams/glutes/core improve performance in virtually any sport or physical activity.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

i believe in front squats if one is already doing deadlifts, if that helps, lol. Backsquats seem redundant (and i dont have a rack!)

 

[Urban]

I threw together a lifting ratio spreadsheet years ago based on a t-mag article (might have been a Poliquin article). I've added a couple of weird things to it to suit my own needs but here it is based on the deadlift.

100 Deadlift
71.4 Back squat
55.6 Bench Press
55.6 Pullups
50 Front squat
50 Close Grip Bench
45 hang clean
43 Dumbell bench press
43 one armed row (two dumbell total)
40 Pushpress
40 Jerk
40 Dumbell Incline Press
32.5 Dumbell overhead press
31.5 Hammer Curl
30 Dumbbell Curl
30 Barbell Curl
30 Dumbell overhead triceps extension
27.5 Bulgarian squat
25 Jefferson curl
25 Lunge
25 Split Squat
24 Press Down
22 ez bar skull crusher
22 Dumbbell skull crusher
22 Preacher Curl
20 Concentration Curl
20 Sotts press
16 Pancake good morning
13 Seated calf raise

I think the only things I've added were Sotts press, Jefferson curl, and pancake good morning. [THEY ARE NOT] necessary and are on my sheet only as a guidline for weights to use when doing them to remind me to focus on form rather than weight, since they're primarily loaded mobility exercises.

Edited to fix the importance of sott's press pancake good morning and Jefferson curl.

 

[gspieler]

I threw together a lifting ratio spreadsheet years ago based on a t-mag article (might have been a Poliquin article). I've added a couple of weird things to it to suit my own needs but here it is based on the deadlift.

100 Deadlift
71.4 Back squat
55.6 Bench Press
55.6 Pullups
50 Front squat
50 Close Grip Bench
45 hang clean
43 Dumbell bench press
43 one armed row (two dumbell total)
40 Pushpress
40 Jerk
40 Dumbell Incline Press
32.5 Dumbell overhead press
31.5 Hammer Curl
30 Dumbbell Curl
30 Barbell Curl
30 Dumbell overhead triceps extension
27.5 Bulgarian squat
25 Jefferson curl
25 Lunge
25 Split Squat
24 Press Down
22 ez bar skull crusher
22 Dumbbell skull crusher
22 Preacher Curl
20 Concentration Curl
20 Sotts press
16 Pancake good morning
13 Seated calf raise

I think the only things I've added were Sotts press, Jefferson curl, and pancake good morning. necessary and are on my sheet only as a guidline for weights to use when doing them to remind me to focus on form rather than weight, since they're primarily loaded mobility exercises.

Lol, I’d like to see a translation into gym-bro. Shrug>Bench>Preacher curl>triceps press down>”abs”>lat pulldown>quarter squats

 

[Urban]

Lol, I’d like to see a translation into gym-bro. Shrug>Bench>Preacher curl>triceps press down>”abs”>lat pulldown>quarter squats

Are you ok? I dont know what any of this means. Did you have a stroke?

 

[vision1]

In my opinion it's all a waste of time. With experience you'll learn to stop worrying about the insignificant details. No movements are necessary. Not everything needs to be balanced. Strength ratios will be completely different from person to person based on their build, function, training history, etc.
No way your back and hamstrings are too strong for your body.

and I would never recommend upright rows.

 

[gspieler]

Are you ok? I dont know what any of this means. Did you have a stroke?

You gotta spend money to make money.

 

[Adnan Adil]

Sounds like you’re over-analyzing this IMHO. The reason PC training is so emphasized in the S&C community is because (1) so many injuries are associated with weak hams/glutes/spinal erectors/upper back muscles, (2) for whatever reason, a lot of lifters seem to train movements that emphasize the muscles on the anterior aspect of the body(mainly benching) disproportionately high to the time/energy they train PC-dominant movements.

A sensible approach is to include a vertical push and pull, a horizontal push and pull, squats, and either DL or cleans, as staples of your training regimen. Most, if not all, of these problems take care of themselves, with a common sense, balanced approach to training(save any inherent deficits/imbalances a lifter may have).

Edit: also goes without saying, but strong hams/glutes/core improve performance in virtually any sport or physical activity.

If I waasn't over-analyzing it, it wasn't going to be me. It seems that my life is too simple and I always go imn the details only to find that there is no signle truth.

i believe in front squats if one is already doing deadlifts, if that helps, lol. Backsquats seem redundant (and i dont have a rack!)

Why the back squats seem redundant for you? And by the way- welcome in the club of the gentlemen without racks! It is very annoying, because my back squat is limited to my ability to throw the barbell on my back and after this to lift it back and put it on the ground.

I threw together a lifting ratio spreadsheet years ago based on a t-mag article (might have been a Poliquin article). I've added a couple of weird things to it to suit my own needs but here it is based on the deadlift.

100 Deadlift
71.4 Back squat
55.6 Bench Press
55.6 Pullups
50 Front squat
50 Close Grip Bench
45 hang clean
43 Dumbell bench press
43 one armed row (two dumbell total)
40 Pushpress
40 Jerk
40 Dumbell Incline Press
32.5 Dumbell overhead press
31.5 Hammer Curl
30 Dumbbell Curl
30 Barbell Curl
30 Dumbell overhead triceps extension
27.5 Bulgarian squat
25 Jefferson curl
25 Lunge
25 Split Squat
24 Press Down
22 ez bar skull crusher
22 Dumbbell skull crusher
22 Preacher Curl
20 Concentration Curl
20 Sotts press
16 Pancake good morning
13 Seated calf raise

I think the only things I've added were Sotts press, Jefferson curl, and pancake good morning. [THEY ARE NOT] necessary and are on my sheet only as a guidline for weights to use when doing them to remind me to focus on form rather than weight, since they're primarily loaded mobility exercises.

Edited to fix the importance of sott's press pancake good morning and Jefferson curl.

Hm, this seems very interesting. Just curious isn't this too small ratio for the calves?

In my opinion it's all a waste of time. With experience you'll learn to stop worrying about the insignificant details. No movements are necessary. Not everything needs to be balanced. Strength ratios will be completely different from person to person based on their build, function, training history, etc.
No way your back and hamstrings are too strong for your body.

and I would never recommend upright rows.

Yeah, you are right. After all, we are all different. I am just curious and I want to know if I am going too far away from the "normal". And please, give some more details about the upright rows, why you don't like them? I was just going to put them as antagonist of the dips in my main routine with the big 6 (which in my case are 8, because I have added plank and reverse plank).

 

[teepsandbarleywine]

Yeah, you are right. After all, we are all different. I am just curious and I want to know if I am going too far away from the "normal". And please, give some more details about the upright rows, why you don't like them? I was just going to put them as antagonist of the dips in my main routine with the big 6 (which in my case are 8, because I have added plank and reverse plank).

Because they're known for causing impingement issues. They aren't a great movement for long-term shoulder health.

 

[Adnan Adil]

Because they're known for causing impingement issues. They aren't a great movement for long-term shoulder health.

Thnak you, man, I didn't know this. I thought that the case is exactly the opposite.

 

[vision1]

What are the "big 6"?

 

[gspieler]

What are the "big 6"?

Unless I’m mistaken, they are...

Squats
Deads
Bench
Row
Press
Pull-up/chins

 

[wufabufa]

What are the "big 6"?

Preacher curl
Concentration curl
Drag curl
Zottman curl
Hammer curl
Pinwheel curl

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

I threw together a lifting ratio spreadsheet years ago based on a t-mag article (might have been a Poliquin article). I've added a couple of weird things to it to suit my own needs but here it is based on the deadlift.

100 Deadlift
71.4 Back squat
55.6 Bench Press
55.6 Pullups
50 Front squat
50 Close Grip Bench
45 hang clean
43 Dumbell bench press
43 one armed row (two dumbell total)
40 Pushpress
40 Jerk
40 Dumbell Incline Press
32.5 Dumbell overhead press
31.5 Hammer Curl
30 Dumbbell Curl
30 Barbell Curl
30 Dumbell overhead triceps extension
27.5 Bulgarian squat
25 Jefferson curl
25 Lunge
25 Split Squat
24 Press Down
22 ez bar skull crusher
22 Dumbbell skull crusher
22 Preacher Curl
20 Concentration Curl
20 Sotts press
16 Pancake good morning
13 Seated calf raise

I think the only things I've added were Sotts press, Jefferson curl, and pancake good morning. [THEY ARE NOT] necessary and are on my sheet only as a guidline for weights to use when doing them to remind me to focus on form rather than weight, since they're primarily loaded mobility exercises.

Edited to fix the importance of sott's press pancake good morning and Jefferson curl.

You forgot the "above the knee rack pull" at 2x the deadlift.

 

[gspieler]

Preacher curl
Concentration curl
Drag curl
Zottman curl
Hammer curl
Pinwheel curl

Not enough trap, ab, and calf work IMO.

 

[ThunderL1ps]

Not enough trap, ab, and calf work IMO.

Are you against concentration curls?

 

[wufabufa]

Not enough trap, ab, and calf work IMO.

No one even sees that stuff when you're wearing your favorite Affliction shirt and Ed Hardy jeans.