Economy Minimum wage debate: States make their own increases (Post #340)

[Lead]

I don't see how you implement that nationwide and not have it negatively effect tons of jobs and businesses. If every business was McDonalds and Walmart, then sure. They should have no problem. "Joe Bob's Electronics" in the armpit of Arkansas might be in a bit of a pickle though. A lot of people are gonna be going from $7.25/h to $0.00/h in their soon to be ghost town.

Yea, as mentioned, I think this becomes a rural v. urban issue and logically explains why supporters of each party see completely different pictures to a policy measure. A democrat in NY or San Fran sees crazy costs to just exist and figures a high minimum wage is great. A republican in a small town where say $9/ hour can get you by and keep some small local business afloat seeing a hike that large and worries. I think it would have completely different impacts on those areas and would like to know where that 0-3.7mil range would affect the most. You would think it would be those small towns. Lastly, if this is such a big issue to Democrats, why hasn't nearly every Democrat controlled city just imposed a living wage in their cities? To me that fixes the problem but there's always this urged to force things across the board when in reality, everyone could be accommodated.

The differences between states can be night and day too even outside of city v. rural. Remember a $15 wage would be higher than ANY current state imposed minimum wage, even exceeding California by a dollar.

Just like college debt forgiveness, notice something about this chart and who the policy could hurt v. benefit? Biden is handling this wrong imo. Raising the minimum wage is very popular for the most part but you don't want it so high, it disrupts the states that would depend on a lower end wage.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Trickle Up Economics > Trickle Down Economics

 

[Lead]

IMO Hillary Clinton's original position was correct.

$12 federal minimum wage, provide guidelines to municipal governments to craft their own minimum wages based on average property values and median income.

It wasn't until I dug into this alittle that I found she pivoted to $15. I thought she had kept that $12 proposal throughout the race. That makes Biden's stance a whole lot less surprising if it had already been the norm.

 

[BIKES!]

Why do we need a minimum wage when half the country doesn’t care about working?

 

[Yehudim]

It should be minimum $15.

And yes let us wait for the "hyperinflation" the GOP is now talking about

You don’t get inflation from increasing the minimum wage, you get unemployment.

It amounts to cutting down the most disadvantaged so that a larger group of people can be better off.

I hate how the government just decides to interfere in the market. We should get rid of all these regulations and reform our welfare to be direct cash transfers.

It would be a lot better and the only downside is the moral outrage of people buying booze with welfare dollars, because we know that no one abuses welfare under the current system.

 

[DoctorNick]

I like it fixed to inflation. Its fucking nuts how people think everything costs the same as it did back in the 90s. You're gonna start making what they did out of school and pay more than double for housing and other necessities. I hope most people are able to at least get cost of living raises each year.

 

[cincymma79]

3.7 million is minimal when there is 170,000,000 in the workforce. That's like 2%, gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

With that said, I don't know why it wasn't written that the federal minimum wage rises as inflation does. That way the increases are gradual and nowhere near as bad as trying to double it within a few years.

So they can grandstand on it every four years

 

[ultramanhyata]

Until Trump we'd never gone two consecutive presidencies without seeing a minimum wage increase. Even Bush raised the minimum wage. The GOP has gone so far right that any increase at all is opposed, let alone 15.

So shocked that Trump, the leader of this alleged new, working man's "populist" republican party, never even proposed much less enacted a minimum wage hike. Shocked I tells ya!

 

[MMAisGod]

Yea, as mentioned, I think this becomes a rural v. urban issue and logically explains why supporters of each party see completely different pictures to a policy measure. A democrat in NY or San Fran sees crazy costs to just exist and figures a high minimum wage is great. A republican in a small town where say $9/ hour can get you by and keep some small local business afloat seeing a hike that large and worries. I think it would have completely different impacts on those areas and would like to know where that 0-3.7mil range would affect the most. You would think it would be those small towns. Lastly, if this is such a big issue to Democrats, why hasn't nearly every Democrat controlled city just imposed a living wage in their cities? To me that fixes the problem but there's always this urged to force things across the board when in reality, everyone could be accommodated.

The differences between states can be night and day too even outside of city v. rural. Remember a $15 wage would be higher than ANY current state imposed minimum wage, even exceeding California by a dollar.

Just like college debt forgiveness, notice something about this chart and who the policy could hurt v. benefit? Biden is handling this wrong imo. Raising the minimum wage is very popular for the most part but you don't want it so high, it disrupts the states that would depend on a lower end wage.

I was listening to something last night that I found very true. The speaker was explaining why politicians mostly make generalized or vague statements such as "I'll raise the minimum wage to $15, no one should be poor" without explaining the specifics behind how to make the plans feasible. It stated it is because the more details you give on any policy, the less likely you achieve mass support. People group together easier behind "$15 for everyone" than they do "$15 for everyone buttt here are some intricate details".

You said it early, but it should be at a local level, even state at times, never federal. Seattle raised theirs over a 5 year plan. Cool. City XYZ in the middle of the country can't survive it. To be frank, it's terrible policy, and even in cities that can maintain it it's much more beneficial for big businesses to bully small businesses, but it's an easy sell which is what gets votes.

 

[skysolo]

Minimum wage will be $15 by 2025....? What?

It was $5.15 in 1997.

In the richest country to ever exist, the minimum wage will only have increased $10 over 30 years.

Your government doesn't care about you.

 

[TeTe]

Why do we need a federal MW hike when cities and states with high cost of living have been adjusting accordingly on their own?

Do 17 year olds living in Nebraska need to be making $15 an hour to bag groceries? I mean, if the store or business takes it upon themselves to do that great, but that seems like an expense that shouldnt be forced on small businesses in low COL area.

 

[Lead]

I was listening to something last night that I found very true. The speaker was explaining why politicians mostly make generalized or vague statements such as "I'll raise the minimum wage to $15, no one should be poor" without explaining the specifics behind how to make the plans feasible. It stated it is because the more details you give on any policy, the less likely you achieve mass support. People group together easier behind "$15 for everyone" than they do "$15 for everyone buttt here are some intricate details".

You said it early, but it should be at a local level, even state at times, never federal. Seattle raised theirs over a 5 year plan. Cool. City XYZ in the middle of the country can't survive it. To be frank, it's terrible policy, and even in cities that can maintain it it's much more beneficial for big businesses to bully small businesses, but it's an easy sell which is what gets votes.

True. I understand the need to simplify it on the campaign trail but this is now active attempts are policy now that he's in office. Also, I think you can keep it simplified while politically savvy. For example, during the primary there were a lot saying medicare for all. The other stance usually required more explanation and didn't have any catchy/ to the point phrase. Buttigieg eventually started using "Medicare for all who want it". Just like that they simplified a distinction in their stance while keeping it simpler and possibly just as appealing to the public. With that said, I don't know how you do it with minimum wage but I think the larger point is it isn't really a policy measure where the federal government should be the leader of the charge but more a backstop. Certain policies they need to take charge but this wouldn't be the one imo.

 

[JDragon]

Your government doesn't care about you.

You're slipping, St. Petersburg

 

[BIKES!]

Why do we need a federal MW hike when cities and states with high cost of living have been adjusting accordingly on their own?

Do 17 year olds living in Nebraska need to be making $15 an hour to bag groceries? I mean, if the store or business takes it upon themselves to do that great, but that seems like an expense that shouldnt be forced on small businesses in low COL area.

Exactly. There are still some states where two $15/hour incomes can buy a house and afford to live.

Same issue with SALT cap. Disproportionately impacts CA & NY

 

[MMAisGod]

True. I understand the need to simplify it on the campaign trail but this is now active attempts are policy now that he's in office. Also, I think you can keep it simplified while politically savvy. For example, during the primary there were a lot saying medicare for all. The other stance usually required more explanation and didn't have any catchy/ to the point phrase. Buttigieg eventually started using "Medicare for all who want it". Just like that they simplified a distinction in their stance while keeping it simpler and possibly just as appealing to the public. With that said, I don't know how you do it with minimum wage but I think the larger point is it isn't really a policy measure where the federal government should be the leader of the charge but more a backstop. Certain policies they need to take charge but this wouldn't be the one imo.

Well said and agreed. I think the impact on the "regulars" really gets lost in the whole $15 national all etc xyz. My mom started a living facility last year. She's been trying to start it for a decade. She has to pay some nurses money and staffers, but at her start up level it would be impossible for her to pay the staffers $15 an hour. She already works there herself as one of them 6-7 days a week and she's almost 60 years old, to save on paying another person. $15 an hour she'd lose it all.

Just one anecdotal example, but the "working man view" gets overlooked way too often.

 

[Lead]

Well said and agreed. I think the impact on the "regulars" really gets lost in the whole $15 national all etc xyz. My mom started a living facility last year. She's been trying to start it for a decade. She has to pay some nurses money and staffers, but at her start up level it would be impossible for her to pay the staffers $15 an hour. She already works there herself as one of them 6-7 days a week and she's almost 60 years old, to save on paying another person. $15 an hour she'd lose it all.

Just one anecdotal example, but the "working man view" gets overlooked way too often.

I mean, it's just two interests in conflict with each other. The minimum wage should essentially argue that there are certain business models that are deemed unhealthy for the economy if they can't support a certain wage for the staff it would require. That's a sliding scale and subjective in itself before we even get into the regional issue. I do tend to see it more from the business side than the employee side as I think the employee isn't forced to work at that establishment. Still, you see examples that charge the issue more like Walmart paying the lowest wage and directing their workforce to different government programs which essentially feels like they are subsidizing their business indirectly. The safety net and lower wages can be in conflict with that dilemma. Another thing is I've read a few comments/ articles outside of here saying "corporate America" can handle the change which to me shows how narrow some perspectives are here. I feel like some people just completely eliminate the small business element here and always very the business side as large greedy corporations. If you run policy that way, you inadvertently crush those small businesses until it is that self fulfilling prophecy where you only have these large corporate employers and likely need far more pressure for employee rights and wage regulation.

 

[MMAisGod]

I mean, it's just two interests in conflict with each other. The minimum wage should essentially argue that there are certain business models that are deemed unhealthy for the economy if they can't support a certain wage for the staff it would require. That's a sliding scale and subjective in itself before we even get into the regional issue. I do tend to see it more from the business side than the employee side as I think the employee isn't forced to work at that establishment. Still, you see examples that charge the issue more like Walmart paying the lowest wage and directing their workforce to different government programs which essentially feels like they are subsidizing their business indirectly. The safety net and lower wages can be in conflict with that dilemma. Another thing is I've read a few comments/ articles outside of here saying "corporate America" can handle the change which to me shows how narrow some perspectives are here. I feel like some people just completely eliminate the small business element here and always very the business side as large greedy corporations. If you run policy that way, you inadvertently crush those small businesses until it is that self fulfilling prophecy where you only have these large corporate employers and likely need far more pressure for employee rights and wage regulation.

I swear everything you're saying in this post is exactly what I've argued at one point or another. Spot on.

 

[Lead]

I swear everything you're saying in this post is exactly what I've argued at one point or another. Spot on.

It's almost like we have similar experiences somehow that might have brought us there, possibly something like background maybe... like work, ha. I bet accountants are more disproportionately against $15 than the average American. Not all obviously but still. When I did my public experience, it was a smaller firm so I would work a lot with small business owners rather than say a Controller or CFO. I think that carries a large weight on how I see this topic as well as growing up in a rural area. I just don't see how it could work in a lot of instances and I hope they are just doing this for posturing/ negotiation purposes.

 

[LMP]

I wouldnt support raising minimum wage without putting drastic increases for other programs such as disability and social security first. All of these really need to be tied to inflation increases. Raising just the minimum is only a bandaid on a problem. Without making sure that there is a standard to keep those struggling with proverty from suffering the same fate in the future, there really doesnt seem to be a point in the increase. There will always be a poverty line, and we do a piss poor job of having safety nets set in place.

 

[ElKarlo]

No.
Unless you’re competing with people playing the game by the same rules, it doesn’t make sense to put an artificial floor on labor costs.
You’re incentivizing companies to offshore and or to hire illegals