Economy Minimum wage debate: States make their own increases (Post #340)

Should there be a federal minimum wage hike?


  • Total voters
    197
$7.25? How can anyone live on that?
lol

You're not supposed to live on it. It's minimum wage. For kids and people with Down's Syndrome and shit. Sweeping the lot at McD's.

$15 could be fine in some areas and catastrophic in others. You don't use the same number in NYC or San Francisco as you do in Antwerp, Ohio.

Not a one-size fits all issue. And best left to the states after setting a fed floor of $9 or whatever.
 
The devil is in the details, but it's about time minimum wage increased.



How does that follow? Isn't part of the appeal of illegal workers is that they will work for less and have no legal recourse for complaining to Department of Labor? I assume it will do the opposite towards illegal immigration because there is no additional enforcement tied to the minimum wage going up/down.
Unintended consequences are a big thing. Frank Dodd the bank bill ended up with the net effect of making the large banks even more massive
I feel that this will lead to less net jobs. As if you can just offshore it. That or hire someone under the table who is willing to work for less.
The best thing to do would to be to not allow bad labor and bad environmental practicing nations trade. You’re handicapping Americans when competing with cheap and dirty countries like China
 
lol

You're not supposed to live on it. It's minimum wage. For kids and people with Down's Syndrome and shit. Sweeping the lot at McD's.

$15 could be fine in some areas and catastrophic in others. You don't use the same number in NYC or San Francisco as you do in Antwerp, Ohio.

Not a one-size fits all issue. And best left to the states after setting a fed floor of $9 or whatever.
Minimum wage is a red herring. So few people actually work for minimum wage, and they are disproportionately high schoolers, high school drop outs, or housewives with no work experience.

Meanwhile the moral panic it causes robs those people of the income and maybe more importantly the experience it provides.

These people think that no income is somehow better than low income. Crazy.
 
What are the stats on cost of living increasing after minimum wage hikes?

Because as a business owner I can tell you that we pass down the new employee costs to that of the consumer. While also reducing hours.
 
I mean, it's just two interests in conflict with each other. The minimum wage should essentially argue that there are certain business models that are deemed unhealthy for the economy if they can't support a certain wage for the staff it would require. That's a sliding scale and subjective in itself before we even get into the regional issue. I do tend to see it more from the business side than the employee side as I think the employee isn't forced to work at that establishment. Still, you see examples that charge the issue more like Walmart paying the lowest wage and directing their workforce to different government programs which essentially feels like they are subsidizing their business indirectly. The safety net and lower wages can be in conflict with that dilemma. Another thing is I've read a few comments/ articles outside of here saying "corporate America" can handle the change which to me shows how narrow some perspectives are here. I feel like some people just completely eliminate the small business element here and always very the business side as large greedy corporations. If you run policy that way, you inadvertently crush those small businesses until it is that self fulfilling prophecy where you only have these large corporate employers and likely need far more pressure for employee rights and wage regulation.

This post reminded me of an old piece William Galston wrote around Obamacare. I tend to find Galston's conclusions pretty ehh and stuck in an idealistic past, but he tends to break down these relationships pretty well.
https://newrepublic.com/article/112...americas-business-community-will-obama-notice

A glance at the websites of two leading business organizations—the National Federation of Independent Business (the “voice of small business”) and the Business Roundtable (CEOs of leading companies with a collective $6 trillion in annual revenues) underscores these differences. While the NFIB continues to call for the repeal of Obamacare, the BR seeks only modest fixes. The NFIB denounces “overzealous regulation” and advocates a national drive to protect small businesses from regulations recently proposed by the Obama administration. For its part, the BR calls for “smarter regulation” and criticizes eight proposed or pending regulations but also “applaud President Obama’s initiative to streamline the federal regulatory apparatus.” Many corporate CEOs supported the fiscal cliff agreement, which small business people opposed because it increased top marginal rates for high-income taxpayers.

The NFIB stance toward government is almost entirely negative: Most of what government does makes the lives of small businessmen and women harder, and it should just stop doing it. By contrast, last year the Business Roundtable issued “Taking Action for America,” a comprehensive plan for jobs and economic growth that called on the government to act on numerous fronts, from education and immigration to energy and trade. While it is easy to discern the thread of self-interest woven through its agenda, the BR at least acknowledges that well-judged government action can contribute to a more robust economy and a healthier labor market.
 
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The largest expensive in business is payroll. So they off set this by increase in price and cutting payroll. Less people more automation and more part time you don’t give benefits.

I agree there needs to be some increase but you have to see the down side too. The higher increase the more the effect.
 
It should be minimum $15.

And yes let us wait for the "hyperinflation" the GOP is now talking about


Perhaps if there weren't 15m illegals then employers would have to offer 15 to keep their workers.
 
$7.25? How can anyone live on that?

Not all jobs are meant to live on. You don't get a job at Hotdog on a Stick with the hopes of buying a house and supporting a wife and two kids.

With that said, min wage should rise with inflation.
 
You don’t get inflation from increasing the minimum wage, you get unemployment.

It amounts to cutting down the most disadvantaged so that a larger group of people can be better off.

I hate how the government just decides to interfere in the market. We should get rid of all these regulations and reform our welfare to be direct cash transfers.

It would be a lot better and the only downside is the moral outrage of people buying booze with welfare dollars, because we know that no one abuses welfare under the current system.

Totally agree with the bold, but the poor people buying lobster is silly.
 
This choice is not available in the polling options, but I believe minimum wage should be set at the State level, due to the massive differences of purchasing power of the dollar and wide gap in standards of living between each State.

For the same amount of money, you can build a mansion in Mississippi rather than the first down payment for a shack in California, so it doesn't make sense to impose the same wage nationwide.

Conclusion: One size does not fit all. Let the people from each State vote for their own minimum wage increase that's appropriate for them. If you don't believe a State issue should be handled appropriately at the State level, why the hell do you even need a State government for? And if the people of your State are incapable of doing at least what the people of Florida already did at the ballot box, why are you still wasting the Earth's oxygen supply?
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State Minimum Wages
1/8/2021

money-budget-100-ben-franklin-983266508_2x.jpg

Currently, 29 states and D.C. have minimum wages above the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.

Five states have not adopted a state minimum wage: Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee. Two states, Georgia and Wyoming, have a minimum wage below $7.25 per hour. In all seven of these states, the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour applies.

2020 Highlights
  • Twenty-one states began 2020 with higher minimum wages. Seven states (Alaska, Florida, Minnesota, Montana, Ohio, South Dakota, and Vermont) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, while 14 states (Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, and Washington) increased their rates due to previously approved legislation or ballot initiatives.​
  • Florida voters approved Amendment 2, raising the state minimum wage to $15.00 per hour by 2026. The amendment raises the minimum wage to $10.00 per hour effective September 2021, with a continuing annual increase until reaching $15.00 per hour.​
2019 Highlights
  • Eighteen states began the new year with higher minimum wages. Eight states (Alaska, Florida, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio, South Dakota and Vermont) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, while 10 states (Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Maine, Massacusetts, Missouri, New York, Rhode Island and Washington) increased their rates due to previously approved legislation or ballot initiatives. Other states that will see rate increases during the 2019 calendar year include D.C., Delaware, Michigan and Oregon.​
  • New Jersey enacted AB 15 in February, which will gradually increase the minimum wage rate to $15 by 2024. (The minimum wage for tipped employees will increase to $9.87 over the same period.) The schedule of annual increases was delayed for certain seasonal workers and employees of small employers, and a training wage of 90 percent of the minimum wage was created for certain employees for their first 120 hours of work.​
  • Illinois enacted SB 1 in February, which will phase in a minimum wage increase to $15 by 2025. The measure also adjusted the youth wage for workers under age 18 (it will gradually increase to $13 by 2025) and created a tax credit program to offset labor cost increases for smaller employers.​
  • Maryland's legislature overrode a gubernatorial veto to enact a measure (SB 280) that phased-in a minimum wage increase to $15 by 2024 (with a delayed schedule of rate increases for smaller employers) and eliminated and the state subminimum wage for employees younger than age 20.​
  • New Mexico enacted SB 437 in April, which will raise the state minimum wage to $12 by 2023. The measure also established a training wage for high school students and slightly increased the tipped minimum wage.​
  • Connecticut enacted HB 5004 in May, which will raise the state minimum wage to $15 by 2023. The measure also indexed the minimum wage to the employment cost index.​
  • Nevada enacted AB 456 in June, which phases in a minimum wage increase over several years. By July 1, 2024, the minimum wage will be $11.00 for employers that offer their employees health benefits and $12.00 for employers that do not offer health benefits.​
2018 Highlights
  • Eighteen states began the new year with higher minimum wages. Eight states (Alaska, Florida, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio and South Dakota) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, while eleven states (Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington) increased their rates due to previously approved legislation or ballot initiatives.​
  • Massachusetts enacted a measure (HB 4640) to increase the state minimum wage to $15 over five years. The tipped wage would rise to $6.75 from $3.75 over the same time period.​
  • Delaware enacted SB 170, which phases in a two-step increase. The rate rises from $8.25 to $8.75 effective Jan. 1, 2019 (as amended by HB 483), and will increase again to $9.25 effective Oct. 1, 2019.​
  • Voters in Arkansas and Missouri approved ballot initiatives phasing in increases to $11 and $12 per hour, respectively.​
  • The Michigan legislature enacted SB 1171, which raises the minimum wage on an annual basis until it reaches $12.05 in 2030.​
2017 Highlights
  • Nineteen states began 2017 with higher minimum wages. Seven states (Alaska, Florida, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio and South Dakota) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, five states (Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Maine and Washington) increased their rates through ballot initiatives previously approved by voters, and seven states (California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York and Vermont) did so as a result of legislation passed in prior sessions. Washington D.C., Maryland and Oregon raised their respective minimum wages on July 1, 2017 due to previously enacted legislation.​
  • Rhode Island was the only state to enact a minimum wage increase during the 2017 legislative sessions.​
2016 Highlights
  • Voters in Arizona, Colorado, Maine and Washington approved November ballot measures to raise their respective minimum wages. Arizona, Colorado and Maine will incrementally increase their minimum wages to $12 an hour by 2020. Washington's will be increased incrementally to $13.50 an hour by 2020.​
  • New York became the second state to pass a new law that would raise the minimum wage in New York City to $15 per hour by the end of 2018. Washington D.C. followed suit, enacting a law to raise the minimum wage in the District to $15 per hour by July 1, 2020.​
  • On April 4, California Governor Jerry Brown signed SB 3 into law. The new law increases the minimum wage to $15 per hour by Jan. 1, 2022, for employers with 26 or more employees. For employers with 25 or fewer employees the minimum wage will reach $15 per hour by Jan. 1, 2023. Increases may be paused by the governor if certain economic or budgetary conditions exist. Beginning the first Jan. 1 after the minimum wage reaches $15 per hour for smaller employers, the minimum wage is indexed annually for inflation.​
  • On March 23, Governor Kenneth Mapp of the Virgin Islands signed Act 7856, establishing an $8.35 minimum wage with scheduled annual increases on June 1, 2017, and 2018 until the rate reaches $10.50.​
  • On March 2, Oregon Governor Kate Brown signed SB 1532 into law. It establishes a series of annual minimum wage increases from July 1, 2016, through July 1, 2022. Beginning July 1, 2023, the minimum wage rate will be indexed to inflation based on the Consumer Price Index.​
  • Fourteen states begin the new year with higher minimum wages. Of those, 12 states increased their rates through legislation passed in the 2014 or 2015 sessions, while two states automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living.​
  • Of the 11 states that currently tie increases to the cost of living, eight did not increase their minimum wage rates for 2016. Colorado provided for an 8-cent increase and South Dakota granted a 5-cent increase per hour. Increases in Nevada are required to take effect in July.​
  • Maryland, Minnesota and D.C. have additional increases scheduled for 2016. Nevada will announce in July whether or not there will be a cost of living increase to their indexed minimum wage.​
 
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This choice is not available in the polling options, but I believe minimum wage should be set at the State level, due to the massive differences of purchasing power of the dollar and wide gap in standards of living between each State.

For the same amount of money, you can build a mansion in Mississippi rather than the first down payment for a shack in California, so it doesn't make sense to impose the same wage nationwide.

Conclusion: One size does not fit all. Let the people from each State vote for their own minimum wage increase that's appropriate for them. If not, why the hell do you even need a State government for? And if your people are incapable of doing at least what Florida already did, why are you still wasting the Earth's oxygen supply?
_____

State Minimum Wages
1/8/2021

money-budget-100-ben-franklin-983266508_2x.jpg

Currently, 29 states and D.C. have minimum wages above the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.

Five states have not adopted a state minimum wage: Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee. Two states, Georgia and Wyoming, have a minimum wage below $7.25 per hour. In all seven of these states, the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour applies.

2020 Highlights
  • Twenty-one states began 2020 with higher minimum wages. Seven states (Alaska, Florida, Minnesota, Montana, Ohio, South Dakota, and Vermont) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, while 14 states (Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, and Washington) increased their rates due to previously approved legislation or ballot initiatives.​
  • Florida voters approved Amendment 2, raising the state minimum wage to $15.00 per hour by 2026. The amendment raises the minimum wage to $10.00 per hour effective September 2021, with a continuing annual increase until reaching $15.00 per hour.​
2019 Highlights
  • Eighteen states began the new year with higher minimum wages. Eight states (Alaska, Florida, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio, South Dakota and Vermont) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, while 10 states (Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Maine, Massacusetts, Missouri, New York, Rhode Island and Washington) increased their rates due to previously approved legislation or ballot initiatives. Other states that will see rate increases during the 2019 calendar year include D.C., Delaware, Michigan and Oregon.​
  • New Jersey enacted AB 15 in February, which will gradually increase the minimum wage rate to $15 by 2024. (The minimum wage for tipped employees will increase to $9.87 over the same period.) The schedule of annual increases was delayed for certain seasonal workers and employees of small employers, and a training wage of 90 percent of the minimum wage was created for certain employees for their first 120 hours of work.​
  • Illinois enacted SB 1 in February, which will phase in a minimum wage increase to $15 by 2025. The measure also adjusted the youth wage for workers under age 18 (it will gradually increase to $13 by 2025) and created a tax credit program to offset labor cost increases for smaller employers.​
  • Maryland's legislature overrode a gubernatorial veto to enact a measure (SB 280) that phased-in a minimum wage increase to $15 by 2024 (with a delayed schedule of rate increases for smaller employers) and eliminated and the state subminimum wage for employees younger than age 20.​
  • New Mexico enacted SB 437 in April, which will raise the state minimum wage to $12 by 2023. The measure also established a training wage for high school students and slightly increased the tipped minimum wage.​
  • Connecticut enacted HB 5004 in May, which will raise the state minimum wage to $15 by 2023. The measure also indexed the minimum wage to the employment cost index.​
  • Nevada enacted AB 456 in June, which phases in a minimum wage increase over several years. By July 1, 2024, the minimum wage will be $11.00 for employers that offer their employees health benefits and $12.00 for employers that do not offer health benefits.​
2018 Highlights
  • Eighteen states began the new year with higher minimum wages. Eight states (Alaska, Florida, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio and South Dakota) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, while eleven states (Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington) increased their rates due to previously approved legislation or ballot initiatives.​
  • Massachusetts enacted a measure (HB 4640) to increase the state minimum wage to $15 over five years. The tipped wage would rise to $6.75 from $3.75 over the same time period.​
  • Delaware enacted SB 170, which phases in a two-step increase. The rate rises from $8.25 to $8.75 effective Jan. 1, 2019 (as amended by HB 483), and will increase again to $9.25 effective Oct. 1, 2019.​
  • Voters in Arkansas and Missouri approved ballot initiatives phasing in increases to $11 and $12 per hour, respectively.​
  • The Michigan legislature enacted SB 1171, which raises the minimum wage on an annual basis until it reaches $12.05 in 2030.​
2017 Highlights
  • Nineteen states began 2017 with higher minimum wages. Seven states (Alaska, Florida, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio and South Dakota) automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living, five states (Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Maine and Washington) increased their rates through ballot initiatives previously approved by voters, and seven states (California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York and Vermont) did so as a result of legislation passed in prior sessions. Washington D.C., Maryland and Oregon raised their respective minimum wages on July 1, 2017 due to previously enacted legislation.​
  • Rhode Island was the only state to enact a minimum wage increase during the 2017 legislative sessions.​
2016 Highlights
  • Voters in Arizona, Colorado, Maine and Washington approved November ballot measures to raise their respective minimum wages. Arizona, Colorado and Maine will incrementally increase their minimum wages to $12 an hour by 2020. Washington's will be increased incrementally to $13.50 an hour by 2020.​
  • New York became the second state to pass a new law that would raise the minimum wage in New York City to $15 per hour by the end of 2018. Washington D.C. followed suit, enacting a law to raise the minimum wage in the District to $15 per hour by July 1, 2020.​
  • On April 4, California Governor Jerry Brown signed SB 3 into law. The new law increases the minimum wage to $15 per hour by Jan. 1, 2022, for employers with 26 or more employees. For employers with 25 or fewer employees the minimum wage will reach $15 per hour by Jan. 1, 2023. Increases may be paused by the governor if certain economic or budgetary conditions exist. Beginning the first Jan. 1 after the minimum wage reaches $15 per hour for smaller employers, the minimum wage is indexed annually for inflation.​
  • On March 23, Governor Kenneth Mapp of the Virgin Islands signed Act 7856, establishing an $8.35 minimum wage with scheduled annual increases on June 1, 2017, and 2018 until the rate reaches $10.50.​
  • On March 2, Oregon Governor Kate Brown signed SB 1532 into law. It establishes a series of annual minimum wage increases from July 1, 2016, through July 1, 2022. Beginning July 1, 2023, the minimum wage rate will be indexed to inflation based on the Consumer Price Index.​
  • Fourteen states begin the new year with higher minimum wages. Of those, 12 states increased their rates through legislation passed in the 2014 or 2015 sessions, while two states automatically increased their rates based on the cost of living.​
  • Of the 11 states that currently tie increases to the cost of living, eight did not increase their minimum wage rates for 2016. Colorado provided for an 8-cent increase and South Dakota granted a 5-cent increase per hour. Increases in Nevada are required to take effect in July.​
  • Maryland, Minnesota and D.C. have additional increases scheduled for 2016. Nevada will announce in July whether or not there will be a cost of living increase to their indexed minimum wage.​
I love the implicit admission that the minimum wage kills jobs by the way they are rolling it out in Florida, with increments until 2026.

It would be a disaster if they just did it suddenly.
 
I wonder what effect this would have on elderly workers. A lot of places hire elderly people to do greetings at the door and other nonproductive work. There's no way people are going to hire 70+ year olds at $15 an hour..

That said, this is great for big cities. It's horrible for every town I've ever driven by off the highway in flyover country. A small antique shop in a town with 50 people can't pay someone $15 an hour. The USA is huge; having policies like this at a national level is crazy. Imagine the EU setting the same minimum wage in Bulgaria as Sweden. How could Bulgaria pay the same minimum wage as Sweden?? How can the 50 person flyover town pay the same minimum wage as NYC??

That's why the minimum wage is best set at the state or local level, like it already is.
 
I love the implicit admission that the minimum wage kills jobs by the way they are rolling it out in Florida, with increments until 2026.

It would be a disaster if they just did it suddenly.

Well that go right back to what I said about purchasing power and standard of living by State.

Cali increased to $15 in 2021. Florida only increase to $10, plus $1 each year after that. One might ask "why Florida doesn't need $15 right away like Cali"?

It all make sense when you realize that the average price of a house in Southern California is $750,000, while you can buy one in Florida for $250,000. With that big of a difference, no wonder voters in Florida don't feel like they need the same wage hike like the voters in Cali!

Check out the full list of the median prices for houses across the United States (a great measurement for Standard of Living) and one will immediately realize how ridiculous it is to jack up wage across the board rather than by State:

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-house-price-state/

Minimum wage in West Virginia looks shitty at $8.75, until you realize that the average cost for a nice house there is only $100,000. You read that right! $100,000! That means a family of 2 can literally buy a really nice house there on that seemingly-shitty $8.75/hour!

Meanwhile, $100,000 can buy you a tool shed in California, and not even a good looking one at that!

So why the hell would ANYONE in their right mind would advocate to doubles West Virginian wages to match California? o_O

Imagine what kind of havoc it would do to businesses in West Virginia when even the bag boy and door greeters at the groceries store have their wage doubled to $15 by Federal mandate. How many stores will have to close overnight when their salary expenses doubled while store income stays exactly the same?

This is why I think the batshit-crazy (or incredibly ignorant) people who advocates for a Federal minimum wage hike across the board rather than let the people vote for it in their own State REALLY needs to get out more, just so they can get in touch with the real world, where the difference in Standards of Living in each U.S state are like night and day, and the same $15 can easily buy you three times more (or three times less) of the exact same product/service once you cross a stateline.
 
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Why do we need a federal MW hike when cities and states with high cost of living have been adjusting accordingly on their own?

Do 17 year olds living in Nebraska need to be making $15 an hour to bag groceries? I mean, if the store or business takes it upon themselves to do that great, but that seems like an expense that shouldnt be forced on small businesses in low COL area.

I see where you are coming from but why should a 17 year old in Nebraska be paid less than a 30 year old in Brooklyn to do the exact same work?
If that 17 year old can make that much money bagging groceries it might give him a chance to go to college and come out without massive debt, maybe it can help support his family....maybe he'll just spend it.

Either way you should be paid what your worth and not be penalised for how much someone decides you need it. If that were the case we could argue children of rich parents should be paid nothing as they clearly dont need the money
 
Seems like we'd have the technology to do this, index the minimum wage to something like the cost of living and home/property prices within a 1 hour commute (or whatever reasonable value) rolled over something like a 5 year span (so you don't have large year to year fluctuations) for non remote positions. Remote positions would follow a national rate.
 
What are the stats on cost of living increasing after minimum wage hikes?

Because as a business owner I can tell you that we pass down the new employee costs to that of the consumer. While also reducing hours.

Why would you reduce hours? Out of principal?Do you currently have people working more hours than you need them to?
If you pass on the price to the consumer or, depending of course on the size of your business, make a bit less profit, that money will circulate in your local economy and a good part may come straight back to you.

If people are forced in to current minimum wage most will never get out. If you are dirt poor and working every hour just to keep a roof over your head you will not have time or money to study, start your own business etc. (Of course we can all point at one or two exceptions, most of whom exaggerate their starting poverty levels).

People doing well should really stop trying to keep other people down, it doesnt help anyone and is an attitude that will lead to civil unrest
 
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