When does karate stop being karate?

[Tayski]

I keep advocating for more goju like rules for karate combat but I keep getting push back that it will just look like MMA lol.

Came across some Russian goju just now

That video you posted is basically Kudo.





I mean why bother with Kata and all the useless kihon techniques if your goal is just fighting anyway. That's exactly why they removed all katas in Daido Juku / Kudo.

 

[Matsukaze]

That looks very cool

 

[SandisLL]

I mean why bother with Kata

As far as I had get, kata is very important to get colored belts ranks and ofc shodan rank in majority of styles.
More than this: in majority of styles career is really started from nidan rank. Where ofc they does know a lot of katas. If lucky, they are stepping up above nidan etc.
Maybe high level guys might get a lot from Kata, I don't know.

Best kata I had saw was shadowbox from one guy before pro boxing fight.
This was his Kata and this wasn't for TMA belt.
Shadowbox /KB too might be some kind of Kata.
Kata I think might be used to automatize movements with some purpose.

 

[JohnPJones]

That video you posted is basically Kudo.





I mean why bother with Kata and all the useless kihon techniques if your goal is just fighting anyway. That's exactly why they removed all katas in Daido Juku / Kudo.

Why remove it? It doesn’t really hamper the ability for karateka to learn to fight when pressure testing and sparring are done alongside kata and kihon training, and kata does have benefits of its own.

And goju has been doing sparring and competitions like this for a very long time. Not sure when kudo became a thing but my organization was training with sparring like this from roughly the 70s until fairly recently. I’m hoping I can influence a bit of a revival of that before things are too far gone.

 

[Tayski]

Why remove it? It doesn’t really hamper the ability for karateka to learn to fight when pressure testing and sparring are done alongside kata and kihon training, and kata does have benefits of its own.

And goju has been doing sparring and competitions like this for a very long time. Not sure when kudo became a thing but my organization was training with sparring like this from roughly the 70s until fairly recently. I’m hoping I can influence a bit of a revival of that before things are too far gone.

Time spent on Kara training is time not spent on other more useful things like drills, padwork, sparring, or strength and conditioning. There's only so much time someone can train and only so many sessions a Dojo runs, if chunks of those sessions are spent on kata it's not the best use of the time if one's goal is fighting or competition, and I say that as someone with 5 years in Shotokan and then 5 years in Kyokushin.

The majority of Goju Ryu Dojos don't do that type of sparring or competitions, some do but it's definitely not the majority. The level is usually sub-par and that's no surprise since there are so many other things to focus on in the style and most people only train Goju Ryu 2 or 3 times a week.

 

[JohnPJones]

Time spent on Kara training is time not spent on other more useful things like drills, padwork, sparring, or strength and conditioning. There's only so much time someone can train and only so many sessions a Dojo runs, if chunks of those sessions are spent on kata it's not the best use of the time if one's goal is fighting or competition, and I say that as someone with 5 years in Shotokan and then 5 years in Kyokushin.

The majority of Goju Ryu Dojos don't do that type of sparring or competitions, some do but it's definitely not the majority. The level is usually sub-par and that's no surprise since there are so many other things to focus on in the style and most people only train Goju Ryu 2 or 3 times a week.

If your goal is simply to learn to fight there’s only one thing you need to do, and that’s as simple as actually fight.
Kata doesn’t take away from drilling, because it is a drill of its own.

where’d you get your data on how most goju karateka spar/compete?

 

[Tayski]

If your goal is simply to learn to fight there’s only one thing you need to do, and that’s as simple as actually fight.
Kata doesn’t take away from drilling, because it is a drill of its own.

where’d you get your data on how most goju karateka spar/compete?

Kata is not a drill towards fighting or competition. What I meant by drills is partner drills. Kata melts time away for very little return if your goals are fighting. It's great for kids and people past competition age, but for young adults in physical prime who want to compete doing hours of kata per month really is a waste of time.

Since you ask, I have cross-trained a bit at a few Goju Ryu dojos and seminars and been to some of their competitions which for the most part were point scoring kumite and even been to one which was knockdown rules with grappling and throws allowed. I also know a handful of Goju practitioners very well.

 

[JohnPJones]

Kata is not a drill towards fighting or competition. What I meant by drills is partner drills. Kata melts time away for very little return if your goals are fighting. It's great for kids and people past competition age, but for young adults in physical prime who want to compete doing hours of kata per month really is a waste of time.

Since you ask, I have cross-trained a bit at a few Goju Ryu dojos and seminars and been to some of their competitions which for the most part were point scoring kumite and even been to one which was knockdown rules with grappling and throws allowed. I also know a handful of Goju practitioners very well.

Been in goju for 20 years and the entirety of the goju kai organization which is one of the two largest organizations for goju does that kind of sparring and competition.

 

[Matsukaze]

That's what i like about bjj .... most of the time is spent pressure testing. Although, I will say I have an extensive background in Okinawan karate and I enjoy all aspects of training..including the kata. When I was younger it was kumite and as I am older now I enjoy my bjj, Naihanchi kata and bag work

 

[Tayski]

Been in goju for 20 years and the entirety of the goju kai organization which is one of the two largest organizations for goju does that kind of sparring and competition.

That just doesn't add up.

All I can find on youtube and google from Goju Kai is point scoring tournaments and competitions:






Even the websites advertising the Goju Kai world tournaments show pictures and footage of point scoring kumite.
https://www.gojukai.co.za/world-tournament-every-4-years

Can you share footage of those full contact tournaments similar to Kudo from Goju Kai specifically?

 

[JohnPJones]

That just doesn't add up.

All I can find on youtube and google from Goju Kai is point scoring tournaments and competitions:






Even the websites advertising the Goju Kai world tournaments show pictures and footage of point scoring kumite.
https://www.gojukai.co.za/world-tournament-every-4-years

Can you share footage of those full contact tournaments similar to Kudo from Goju Kai specifically?

Did you even watch the last video you posted which I also shared earlier in this thread?

but yes goju ryu does both as well as knockdown. Unfortunately goju is responsible for the abomination known as point fighting.

 

[JohnPJones]

Oh look more goju continuous sparring with throws and takedowns




knockdown


I don’t have enough data to say a majority or most do full contact continuous, but I have enough data to know it’s not uncommon in goju.

Will the majority of competitions goju people do he point fighting? Probably, just because point tournaments are every where, and most goju full contact tournaments with takedowns end up typically being very small and always against the same opponents.

Idk who held these world championships but their point fighting at least isn’t light contact.



More continuous sparring


even the littlest goju karateka can be found doing continuous. (Admittedly this is probably very rare)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YmIG2hALi1g

more full contact competition with take downs a world championship even
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw1sdkGjXDs

 

[Tayski]

Did you even watch the last video you posted which I also shared earlier in this thread?

but yes goju ryu does both as well as knockdown. Unfortunately goju is responsible for the abomination known as point fighting.

I did watch the last video I posted, and if you're referring in particular to the end of that video, it's continuous point scoring with a bit of contact (semi-contact), not full contact fights. You can even see that guy holding on his head kick like in point scoring or guys holding their punches. They made a highlight video of all the stuff that looked hard but you can still see it's not full-contact.

Oh look more goju continuous sparring with throws and takedowns




knockdown


I don’t have enough data to say a majority or most do full contact continuous, but I have enough data to know it’s not uncommon in goju.

Will the majority of competitions goju people do he point fighting? Probably, just because point tournaments are every where, and most goju full contact tournaments with takedowns end up typically being very small and always against the same opponents.

Idk who held these world championships but their point fighting at least isn’t light contact.


More continuous sparring


even the littlest goju karateka can be found doing continuous. (Admittedly this is probably very rare)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YmIG2hALi1g

more full contact competition with take downs a world championship even
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw1sdkGjXDs

You mentioned specifically the Goju Kai and that the entirety of that organization does that kind of sparring and competition, yet when I ask you specifically to show some footage of some Goju Kai competitions with Kudo rules or similar or anything full contact (as you say the entirety of the organization does it and you've been in it for 20 years) you end up posting a bunch of random Goju Ryu videos none of which are from Goju Kai.

So anyway, as I said, most Goju Ryu dojos and organizations don't do full contact, some do which is what I said from the start and I even said that I've seen it in my own eyes when I attended some classes, seminars and a local competition with knockdown rules with grappling, but I have been to a lot more Goju places and events where they don't do any form of full contact than the opposite. So let's not pretend it's the majority of Goju Ryu dojos or entire organizations like you tried to make it sound at first. Now you're changing your stance to "don't have enough data to say it's the majority", "it's not uncommon" and "full contact tournaments end up being very small and against the same opponents".

My original point which you were trying to dispute was: "The majority of Goju Ryu Dojos don't do that type of sparring or competitions, some do but it's definitely not the majority. The level is usually sub-par and that's no surprise since there are so many other things to focus on in the style and most people only train Goju Ryu 2 or 3 times a week."

I still stand by my point.

 

[JohnPJones]

I did watch the last video I posted, and if you're referring in particular to the end of that video, it's continuous point scoring with a bit of contact (semi-contact), not full contact fights. You can even see that guy holding on his head kick like in point scoring or guys holding their punches. They made a highlight video of all the stuff that looked hard but you can still see it's not full-contact.



You mentioned specifically the Goju Kai and that the entirety of that organization does that kind of sparring and competition, yet when I ask you specifically to show some footage of some Goju Kai competitions with Kudo rules or similar or anything full contact (as you say the entirety of the organization does it and you've been in it for 20 years) you end up posting a bunch of random Goju Ryu videos none of which are from Goju Kai.

So anyway, as I said, most Goju Ryu dojos and organizations don't do full contact, some do which is what I said from the start and I even said that I've seen it in my own eyes when I attended some classes, seminars and a local competition with knockdown rules with grappling, but I have been to a lot more Goju places and events where they don't do any form of full contact than the opposite. So let's not pretend it's the majority of Goju Ryu dojos or entire organizations like you tried to make it sound at first. Now you're changing your stance to "don't have enough data to say it's the majority", "it's not uncommon" and "full contact tournaments end up being very small and against the same opponents".

My original point which you were trying to dispute was: "The majority of Goju Ryu Dojos don't do that type of sparring or competitions, some do but it's definitely not the majority. The level is usually sub-par and that's no surprise since there are so many other things to focus on in the style and most people only train Goju Ryu 2 or 3 times a week."

I still stand by my point.

bro the entire last half of the fight is full contact. A dude gets kneed in the freaking head. They had kata, demonstrations, point fighting, and full contact continuous all in one video.
Why are you making stuff up?
1. I never said I was part of goju kai.
2 I said goju kai does full contact continuous and is one of the largest organizations. I never said the entirety of every dojo does it because I know I don’t have that kind of data. Again why would I find a video of it when the same video that has kudo-esque rules has already been posted here at least twice now.
How often people train is irrelevant. Most people who train KB, MT or boxing likely only train 2-3 times a week.

 

[Tayski]

bro the entire last half of the fight is full contact. A dude gets kneed in the freaking head. They had kata, demonstrations, point fighting, and full contact continuous all in one video.
Why are you making stuff up?
1. I never said I was part of goju kai.
2 I said goju kai does full contact continuous and is one of the largest organizations. I never said the entirety of every dojo does it because I know I don’t have that kind of data. Again why would I find a video of it when the same video that has kudo-esque rules has already been posted here at least twice now.
How often people train is irrelevant. Most people who train KB, MT or boxing likely only train 2-3 times a week.

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point, if you think that's full contact and not point scoring you clearly don't know what you're watching "bro".

First of all in that video they're wearing the typical point-scoring mittens. They're also pulling back their punches, the guy throwing a kick at 1.35 literally pulls it back before it lands so as to not make contact, at 2.06 they're exchanging punches which touch but they're trying not to make hard contact then one of them is literally shouting kiai's when he throws his punches, lol. The rest of the video is much of the same with guys touching for points and avoiding hard contact apart from that guy landing a knee (which doesn't even look to the head) and the other guy going down. Those are not full contact fights, they're continuous semi-contact point-scoring kumite, if you think otherwise let's stop the conversation here because you don't even know what you're watching.

You said "Been in goju for 20 years and the entirety of the goju kai organization which is one of the two largest organizations for goju does that kind of sparring and competition." So of course worded like that one would think those 20 years were spent in Goju Kai, either way you said "the entirety of the goju kai organization does that kind of sparring and competition", now you're saying it's not the entirety because you just don't know and you just can't find a single piece of footage to back it up. That video with "kudo-esque rules" as you call it is from Goju Ryu in Russia but I don't see anything about Goju Kai on it.

How often people train IS relevant because if you train 2-3 sessions a week but most of those sessions is spent on other stuff like kihon, kata, 1-step kumite and so on well guess what those who spend the entirety of their training sessions on actual fight training (like in KB, MT or boxing as you mention them) with full-contact sparring they will simply be better fighters quicker, that's quite obvious. So going back to what I said again, kata is a waste of time for someone whose goals is fighting.

Anyway it seems that we're going in circles and you're obviously changing your stance and what you say constantly and you can't even tell the difference between a semi-contact point scoring tournament and a full contact one. Great that you enjoy Karate but from all your threads and posts I get the vibe that you're trying to convince yourself that Karate is great and you're making the right choice by sticking to it. It also looks like you're trying really hard to convince others of the same thing.

 

[maximus__]

I asked karateka on reddit what makes karate, karate.

what could be be removed that’s quintessential karate, while keeping the style what you’d call karate.

example
Is it still karate if there is 0 kata training?

In terms of fighting I always felt it just becomes kickbxing once you move away from that blitz style of fighting.
Karate to me always pushed that blitz for finish mentality. It doesn't really have that back and forth give or take, like muay thai for example.
It sort of reminds me of samurai without the swords. No prolonged back and forth blocking etc, just a quick sequence leading to someone getting finished.

 

[JohnPJones]

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point, if you think that's full contact and not point scoring you clearly don't know what you're watching "bro".

First of all in that video they're wearing the typical point-scoring mittens. They're also pulling back their punches, the guy throwing a kick at 1.35 literally pulls it back before it lands so as to not make contact, at 2.06 they're exchanging punches which touch but they're trying not to make hard contact then one of them is literally shouting kiai's when he throws his punches, lol. The rest of the video is much of the same with guys touching for points and avoiding hard contact apart from that guy landing a knee (which doesn't even look to the head) and the other guy going down. Those are not full contact fights, they're continuous semi-contact point-scoring kumite, if you think otherwise let's stop the conversation here because you don't even know what you're watching.

You said "Been in goju for 20 years and the entirety of the goju kai organization which is one of the two largest organizations for goju does that kind of sparring and competition." So of course worded like that one would think those 20 years were spent in Goju Kai, either way you said "the entirety of the goju kai organization does that kind of sparring and competition", now you're saying it's not the entirety because you just don't know and you just can't find a single piece of footage to back it up. That video with "kudo-esque rules" as you call it is from Goju Ryu in Russia but I don't see anything about Goju Kai on it.

How often people train IS relevant because if you train 2-3 sessions a week but most of those sessions is spent on other stuff like kihon, kata, 1-step kumite and so on well guess what those who spend the entirety of their training sessions on actual fight training (like in KB, MT or boxing as you mention them) with full-contact sparring they will simply be better fighters quicker, that's quite obvious. So going back to what I said again, kata is a waste of time for someone whose goals is fighting.

Anyway it seems that we're going in circles and you're obviously changing your stance and what you say constantly and you can't even tell the difference between a semi-contact point scoring tournament and a full contact one. Great that you enjoy Karate but from all your threads and posts I get the vibe that you're trying to convince yourself that Karate is great and you're making the right choice by sticking to it. It also looks like you're trying really hard to convince others of the same thing.

Weird how when I’ve shared that same video here in other threads about full contact karate everyone else seems to have accepted it as full contact.
What gloves competitors wear has nothing to do with if a competition is full contact or not. The last half they’re not even wearing the gloves most often associated with point fighting.
But also I hate to tell you KB, MT, boxing, and MMA are all trying to score points…

you are correct I did say the entirety. I misspoke.

 

[JohnPJones]

In terms of fighting I always felt it just becomes kickbxing once you move away from that blitz style of fighting.
Karate to me always pushed that blitz for finish mentality. It doesn't really have that back and forth give or take, like muay thai for example.
It sort of reminds me of samurai without the swords. No prolonged back and forth blocking etc, just a quick sequence leading to someone getting finished.

That’s because point fighting rules were based off of kendo rules lol.
Kickboxing literally started as karate with Muay Thai rules…

 

[maximus__]

That’s because point fighting rules were based off of kendo rules lol.
Kickboxing literally started as karate with Muay Thai rules…

That would explain. I think more of Machida as karate vs Wonderboy who reminds me of an old school kickboxer for example.

 

[JohnPJones]

That would explain. I think more of Machida as karate vs Wonderboy who reminds me of an old school kickboxer for example.

Kickboxing was basically Karate Combat of the 60s and 70s and then it started to kinda become it’s own thing im the 80s and 90s and by the 00s was almost completely divorced from karate but for the number karateka who compete still compete in it at all levels.