News * UFC doubled it's profits in 2022. Fighter pay up 26 % since 2005 !

[RicardinhoPT]

The point is their revenue is still over a billion a year. They aren't making any real profits until their debt is paid off. It's the same thing with people working but paying off loans, there's no profit since everything is at a negative overall but they will eventually be able to pay everything off given a certain amount of time. With that kind of revenue a year and only a couple billion in debt, it's not going to take them long to clear that. It'll be faster than most companies that get loans with similar amounts of money.

You clearly don't understand how corporate financing worth. A stock listed company's goal isn't to pay off its debt, it's too maximize the profit for their shareholders. Even while making profits, they will keep the debt to invest in future growth

Ebitda is irrelevant in the hyper growth era

Sports are billion dollar businesses due to athlete popularity

The sport wont hit the nba NFL level without paying their athletes big bucks

It is actually such a short term play to pay athletes so low it makes the sport look amateur

Ebitda is 100% the most important factor when buying a company. I'd also like to see any proof that low pay has any correlation with popularity, makes no sense at all

 

[krelianx]

Compare that with the 48% of revenue given to NFL players and you can see why fighters are pissed.

It's not the same model. Sports leagues athletes are paid by the teams that hire, not the league itself. The UFC bears all of the cost of putting the shows, leagues, promotion, and paying the fighters.

 

[tastaylvr]

Ebitda is 100% the most important factor when buying a company. I'd also like to see any proof that low pay has any correlation with popularity, makes no sense at all

Ebitda is overrated af especially when the goal of the ufc is for 100% of the global market share

Can you name me any big companies in any field that pay talent lower to make profit? It doesnt happen

Can you name me any sport that pays their stars less than the nba but has more popularity? Populatity and athlete pay is 100% correlated

 

[My name is]

There's a lot of very rich people that have to stay very rich

 

[GrantB13]

Not profits. A company can make double what they did the previous year but if their costs doubled then their profit is the same despite more money going in and out. If last year you made $50k, spent $40k, you profited $10k. If this year you made $100k and spent $90k, you still only made $10k. Hypothetical, cherry picked scenario, but that's how it can happen.

If a company didn't make any more profits than the year before that's actually a bad sign to investors regardless of the revenue increases.

 

[markg171]

Compare that with the 48% of revenue given to NFL players and you can see why fighters are pissed.

Let me know when any fighter fights 17 times in 18 weeks like NFL players play. They're being paid less because they're not competing as much. Aaron Rodgers is the highest paid NFL player at $50M. If Conor, the highest paid MMA fighter, fought 17 times he'd make more than Rodgers with $85M in show purse alone without even counting his PPV income. Conor would astronomically dwarf Rodgers income if he competed as often as Rodgers has to.

You've also got the fact that while there's league minimums which are very handsome compared to MMA minimum purses, those guys still play "in the main event". You can't just tune out when the 4th string player comes on, there's one broadcast for the entire game. The MMA fighters who get paid the minimum are not in a similar position. UFC events are broken up into different broadcast portions, and specifically (generally speaking) by fighter's worth to the audience. If you're on the Fight Pass only prelim of course you don't get paid as much as the person in the main event. You were put there because you're a nobody, and the UFC knows nobody will watch you.

Furthermore, but you've got the elephant in the room being that a single NFL team is worth nearly what the entire UFC is worth. The UFC is allegedly worth $9-10B, and a team like the Cowboys are worth $6.5B. A single team is worth almost as much as the whole league, not a league to league comparison which would be massively in the NFL's favour. Which is a key difference however in that a NFL team only has 53 players to pay meanwhile the UFC has over 400 fighters. So of course the NFL team can pay more. They're nearly worth as much but with 8x less athletes. Much more room to spread their revenue around.

Obviously the UFC could pay more, but these arguments to other leagues never work. Other athletes compete far more often, don't have similar placements in the events, and are part of much smaller billion dollar organizations.

 

[blacknblue104]

There's actually been a 50% inflation in the value of the dollar since 2005 too lol...

So a guy making 20/20 a fight would be bumped up to 30/30 a fight.

Also take into account the amount of money that these guys lost in sponsorship money due to the outfitting deals.

I wouldn't be surprised if your average UFC fighter is making a good amount of money less than your average UFC fighter from 2010.

 

[avenue94]

That's a fair question that's always better answered in hindsight.

What I'm getting at is it sounds like the UFC is going to be in a "growth phase" for years, if not decades. And these seem to be pretty arbitrary terms.

Who did they pay?
We've just all been following the sport for so long that we remember the dark days when there was no money and it was going bankrupt and changing hands like a blunt.

Those days have been gone for almost 2 decades.
The ones we know about, $199 million to Dana and the Fertitas in 2007, another $305 million in 2009. And then WME tapped the UFC for another $300 million split between agents, investors and Dana and company a couple years ago.

Until all of those things (or at least the majority of the saturation) come to fruition, I'd call it a growth company.

So what is an example of a big company in your mind that isn't a growth company?

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

if only the fighters were as brave outside of the ring as they are inside of it.

 

[avenue94]

It's not the same model. Sports leagues athletes are paid by the teams that hire, not the league itself. The UFC bears all of the cost of putting the shows, leagues, promotion, and paying the fighters.

Those costs are still less than the costs of running an NFL team or the league, as percent of revenue or compared to profit you get out. People vastly overestimate UFC expenses.

Let me know when any fighter fights 17 times in 18 weeks like NFL players play. They're being paid less because they're not competing as much. Aaron Rodgers is the highest paid NFL player at $50M. If Conor, the highest paid MMA fighter, fought 17 times he'd make more than Rodgers with $85M in show purse alone without even counting his PPV income. Conor would astronomically dwarf Rodgers income if he competed as often as Rodgers has to.

Athletes are not paid by their schedule, the biggest factor is simply how much they are worth and how much power they have to negotiate and get as close as to their worth as possible.

They're nearly worth as much but with 8x less athletes. Much more room to spread their revenue around.

Clearly a copout and not why the UFC can't pay more.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

I am NOT one to moan about fighter pay (anymore) but 26% increase in 17 yrs is a bit laugable. It's not even keeping up with inflation, lol. So fighters are actually being paid less in today's dollars, than in 2005.

Again, I'm not one to complain about another man's pay anymore but this is not a thing to boast about.

Right.

In this century I do remember when a fighter or two made $800/$800 (it was rare to see under $1k/$1k, that's why I remember it s vividly). Post-TUF the minimum went up to I think $3k/$3k and now it's, what, $14k/$14k?

No one can honestly deny it hasn't gone up a lot.

But that's only a small part of the entire story.

 

[markg171]

Athletes are not paid by their schedule, the biggest factor is simply how much they are worth and how much power they have to negotiate and get as close as to their worth as possible.

Except they essentially are paid by their schedule, which unlike in the UFC is a known commodity ahead of the season. They have to bargain on the basis of playing that many games and what their worth is for that. Star factor is a huge factor obviously, but both sides are negotiating on the basis of playing that whole season.

Yes, obviously they could tear their ACL in their first game and still get paid the same salary. But the owner wouldn't be offering the same salary if he knew that ahead of time. He's offering it on the expected basis of playing all season, not 1/17 games. But as I said it's a reciprocal agreement. The player agrees to contribute all season, and the owner agrees to pay all season.

UFC fighters meanwhile agree per fight for a certain amount of fights, and only get paid the moment the ref says go. They'd be better served agreeing to a more similar agreement of promising a certain amount of fights in a certain amount of time. You have a lot more leverage there than if you just agree you'll fight whenever you feel like it.

Clearly a copout and not why the UFC can't pay more.

It's not a copout. $6.5B to 53 players is a lot more evenly distributed than $9B to 400 fighters. That's math.

Again, the UFC absolutely COULD payout more. But the numbers will never end up comparable to these individual teams like people try and do. The numbers aren't remotely the same because a much small group brings in nearly as much revenue as an entire league. You'd have to go back to early UFC days where the roster was much smaller, while somehow still having the same revenue, to make it comparable to value vs number of athletes.

It can be made better without trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

[markg171]

Right.

In this century I do remember when a fighter or two made $800/$800 (it was rare to see under $1k/$1k, that's why I remember it s vividly). Post-TUF the minimum went up to I think $3k/$3k and now it's, what, $14k/$14k?

No one can honestly deny it hasn't gone up a lot.

But that's only a small part of the entire story.

For instance Brock and GSP, two of the biggest stars in MMA history, were on $400k purses before PPV points when they left MMA in 2011 and 2013 respectively. Brock returned in 2016 and GSP 2017 and their purses were now $2.5M before PPV points.

AKA their show money increased 6.25x in 4-5 years. That's a huge increase.

And it's not even the biggest purse as that's Conor's at $5M before PPV points. The biggest star in MMA now makes 12.5x what they made 9 years ago.

You can agree the UFC should pay more while still acknowledging that their pay standards have gone up significantly.

 

[DestinedAussie]

The UFC’s revenues for the 1st Quarter of 2022 were over $1 billion in the Last Twelve Months (April 1st, 2021 through March 31, 2022).

* This is double digit growth from the previous year.

* Fighter pay had increased 26% since 2005.
- Lubin also disclosed that fighter pay had increased 26% CAGR since 2005. Since we also know what total fighter pay was in 2005 — $4.3 million — total fighter pay would have been around $178.8 million last year. That would be just 17.5% of their total revenue.

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2022/6/...a-year-minimal-costs-and-more-growth-expected

Well if they had double digit growth and the fight pay remains at that %, it will mean the renumeration to fighters has also had double digit growth which is something.

Jesus only 17% of their revenue is going to the fighters?

I am not saying they don't deserve more, but I would be curious how much of that revenue was profit.

At my previous job I would generate over a million a year but there was almost no profit (which was fine because I was only asked to cover costs and focus on growth).

 

[TorontoTO]

Fighters are too dumb to form a union.

Dana knows this, pushes that “lone wolf” mentality and the fighters play right into it.

Its a damn shame that Dana is worth almost a billion while most fighters grow old with health issues and retire with barely any money.

All the major agents are working hand in hand with the UFC as well. Ali, Malki, etc. You would need like 50% of the roster to boycott fighting and unionize for anything to happen. Even with something like 25%, you could get enough scabs signed off the regionals to fill out cards

 

[TorontoTO]

If the ufc flipped rosters with another org. People would still be tuning into the ufc almost exclusively while the others would be B lesgueb

This is the truth. If you had Volkanovski, Usman, Charles, etc in any other promotion, people would be telling them to sign with the UFC and that they are B leaguers.

 

[Sticko]

Except they essentially are paid by their schedule, which unlike in the UFC is a known commodity ahead of the season. They have to bargain on the basis of playing that many games and what their worth is for that. Star factor is a huge factor obviously, but both sides are negotiating on the basis of playing that whole season.

Yes, obviously they could tear their ACL in their first game and still get paid the same salary. But the owner wouldn't be offering the same salary if he knew that ahead of time. He's offering it on the expected basis of playing all season, not 1/17 games. But as I said it's a reciprocal agreement. The player agrees to contribute all season, and the owner agrees to pay all season.

UFC fighters meanwhile agree per fight for a certain amount of fights, and only get paid the moment the ref says go. They'd be better served agreeing to a more similar agreement of promising a certain amount of fights in a certain amount of time. You have a lot more leverage there than if you just agree you'll fight whenever you feel like it.



It's not a copout. $6.5B to 53 players is a lot more evenly distributed than $9B to 400 fighters. That's math.

Again, the UFC absolutely COULD payout more. But the numbers will never end up comparable to these individual teams like people try and do. The numbers aren't remotely the same because a much small group brings in nearly as much revenue as an entire league. You'd have to go back to early UFC days where the roster was much smaller, while somehow still having the same revenue, to make it comparable to value vs number of athletes.

It can be made better without trying to compare apples to oranges.

For the NFL team it's really more like 70 players, not 53, when you factor in guys on injured reserve and practice squad players. In 2022 from what I've read the practice squad is going to be 16 guys per team and they're going to get between $15.4k and $19k each week they're on it, for a game which they're not even allowed to play in (unless elevated to the active roster of course, which would mean increased pay as well.)

Compare that to one of the UFC's most marketable young stars, Paddy Pimblett, who fights maybe twice a year on a 12/12 contract, and makes nothing the weeks that he doesn't fight.

Obviously the economics are way more favorable for running the NFL team, they have a lot more money. I don't think anybody sane thinks MMA fighters should make the same amount as NFL players. The issue is proportionality. NFL players are getting almost half of a big pie and UFC fighters are getting a narrow slice of a small pie.

The UFC has a giant roster but it's full of guys who fight once or twice a year and they only get paid when they fight. The NFL has a much smaller roster getting paid over and over again throughout the year.

 

[TorontoTO]

According to Tim Kennedy, most fighters are receptive to unionization but fear of retribution by the UFC killed past efforts.

The UFC has blacklisted entire gyms before over disputes. I forgot the name of the one in Netherlands that Overeem used to be at, but the UFC released everyone there or refused to sign people from it because they had a contract dispute with one of their fighters.

 

[kingofthecans]

If UFC is smart, they'll exchange paying in cash with bitcoin, right before it crashes, then all those fighters will be working for nothing and under contract. Truly the smartest play for the company. Dump your coin in the best way possible. Fighters will love the pay increase too and they won't be able to complain cause they signed the contract.

 

[joeson]

I am NOT one to moan about fighter pay (anymore) but 26% increase in 17 yrs is a bit laugable. It's not even keeping up with inflation, lol. So fighters are actually being paid less in today's dollars, than in 2005.

Again, I'm not one to complain about another man's pay anymore but this is not a thing to boast about.

Exactly. If the fighters just got cost of living increases that kept pace with inflation (which many regular workers do) they would have received close to a 50% increase by now.

This is how you pay the easily replaced support staff, not the ones that produce the product you sell. Every other industry pays their core staff as much as possible in order to keep the best talent. The UFC uses legally dubious contracts and other anticompetitive tactics to lock the talent down. That’s not a sustainable practice.

As a public company, more and more of their tactics are coming under scrutiny. With the financials also being shared, more competition will be coming online and will be legally challenging the restrictive UFC contracts. There’s simply too much money to be made not to.

The UFC is setting themselves up for disruption.