The Case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and top 15 P4P All Time

Hughes was his best win but he did it at WW.

WW fights mean nothing for LW status.
bs. if khabib moved up and beat usman it would certainly help cement his LW legacy.

theres no way in the world if khabib beat usman you would say "it dosnt matter it was at ww" when people used it to credit how great a LW he was
 
Let’s not forget he wasn’t knocked down in a single fight or submitted until well passed his prime. I also believe edger was the first guy to take him down at light weight
 
bs. if khabib moved up and beat usman it would certainly help cement his LW legacy.

theres no way in the world if khabib beat usman you would say "it dosnt matter it was at ww" when people used it to credit how great a LW he was
No it wouldn't.

It would help his case for overall GOAT not LW GOAT.
 
The way BJ moved up in weight and fought the best was impressive, and he may well be the LW GOAT.

BJ ran TOO the tough fights, he didn't run AWAY from them and retire young like Khabib. BJ had really good striking, BJJ, and TD defense, which would make prime BJ a tougher matchup than Khabib ever faced. Charles beat Khabib's best opponents.

Khabib vs BJ would be a far more interesting and tough fight than many here think. And the winner is more questionable than most think.
 
Over the past 10 years or so BJ Penn's reputation and all time ranking has taken a major hit with the newer generation of fans. This is mostly due to the 7 fight losing streak he had at the end of his career. The viral clip of him getting ko'd by some random guy on the street didn't help. However, those of us who were around to actually witness his career know the truth about BJ Penn. He was without a doubt one of the greatest fighters the sport has ever seen. This is the case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and a top 15 all time p4p fighter.

Penn holds the record for most Top 10 Wins and the most Title Defenses in the LW division

Most people are aware that Penn is tied with Khabib for the most title defenses in LW history. But one thing I don't think people realize is that to this day BJ Penn is still holds the record for most top 10 wins in the lightweight division with 8. Sure Khabib tied his title defense record but Khabib hasn't matched his top 10 win record. And sure Benson Henderson tied his top 10 win record but not his title defense record. So going by the numbers BJ Penn is still the longest reigning and most dominant fighter we've ever seen in the division. Not Khabib, not Bendo, not Frankie, not Islam. It's BJ Penn.

BJ Penn has 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses

Penn is one of only 10 fighters in MMA history to have at least 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses. The group includes Fedor, Jones, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, Mighty Mouse, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, and Israel Adesanya. He is in elite company.

Penn was a Double Champ

BJ Penn sits alongside Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Conor McGregor, GSP, and Jon Jones as a Pride/UFC Double Champ.

Penn has the highest finishing rate in LW history

Out of BJ Penn's 12 victories in the LW division 11 of them were finishes. That gives him a 91% finishing rate at LW and an overall finishing rate of 81% for his career. This is in contrast to the many decision victories Benson and Khabib won.

BJ was robbed in 3 of the biggest fights in his career

One could make a very strong case that BJ was robbed against Caol Uno, Georges St Pierre, and Frankie Edgar. Sure, the official record reflects 2 losses and a draw. But BJ actually beat each one of those guys. On top of that BJ was about 30 seconds away from securing a win over Jon Fitch as well. Another thing to consider is that BJ defeated top 10 LW Duane Ludwig in a WW fight thus robbing him of another top 10 win. Penn also defeated top 10 WW Rodrigo Gracie in a MW fight thus robbing him of yet another top 10 win.

In an alternate universe where BJ is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW...he becomes a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time. He becomes a 2x UFC LW champion with 4 title defenses and 11 top 10 wins in the LW division. Which of course would make him the clear cut GOAT over Khabib and Bendo at LW. He also ends up with victories over the 2 greatest WW's in MMA history along with a 3rd win over another top 10 WW of all time in Jon Fitch. He goes from 10 overall top 10 wins to 16. That would make him tied with Aldo at #4 for the most top 10 wins in MMA history. That would also take his peak record from a rather pedestrian looking 15-6-1 to a much more respectable 20-4.

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So there you have it. When put into context BJ Penn had a top 10 caliber career all time. He has the numbers and the performances to stake a legitimate claim as the LW GOAT. He has the accomplishments to stake a claim as a top 15 p4p fighter of all time. With just a little bit of better luck Penn could be a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time right up there with Aldo and Mighty Mouse. His 7 fight losing streak came at the end of his career and like all fighters this should not be held against him. It's a real shame that Penn's legacy has taken such a hit over the years. Hopefully this will help some newer fans realize just how great BJ Penn actually was. Let's show our respect to the Prodigy...the GREAT BJ Penn!!!

bj-penn.gif


Outstanding post.

This is why most GOAT level fighters including Khabib put BJ Penn on their top 10 best fighters of all time.

The fighters know it.

Some ignorant fans do not.
 
No he promised me to fight George to the death and quit between rounds

Maybe if GSP didnt grease ... we would have gotten a better rematch.

GSP was so worried about BJ that his cheating led to UFC completely change the rules about who can apply vasaline on fighters.
 
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Over the past 10 years or so BJ Penn's reputation and all time ranking has taken a major hit with the newer generation of fans. This is mostly due to the 7 fight losing streak he had at the end of his career. The viral clip of him getting ko'd by some random guy on the street didn't help. However, those of us who were around to actually witness his career know the truth about BJ Penn. He was without a doubt one of the greatest fighters the sport has ever seen. This is the case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and a top 15 all time p4p fighter.

Penn holds the record for most Top 10 Wins and the most Title Defenses in the LW division

Most people are aware that Penn is tied with Khabib for the most title defenses in LW history. But one thing I don't think people realize is that to this day BJ Penn is still holds the record for most top 10 wins in the lightweight division with 8. Sure Khabib tied his title defense record but Khabib hasn't matched his top 10 win record. And sure Benson Henderson tied his top 10 win record but not his title defense record. So going by the numbers BJ Penn is still the longest reigning and most dominant fighter we've ever seen in the division. Not Khabib, not Bendo, not Frankie, not Islam. It's BJ Penn.

BJ Penn has 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses

Penn is one of only 10 fighters in MMA history to have at least 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses. The group includes Fedor, Jones, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, Mighty Mouse, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, and Israel Adesanya. He is in elite company.

Penn was a Double Champ

BJ Penn sits alongside Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Conor McGregor, GSP, and Jon Jones as a Pride/UFC Double Champ.

Penn has the highest finishing rate in LW history

Out of BJ Penn's 12 victories in the LW division 11 of them were finishes. That gives him a 91% finishing rate at LW and an overall finishing rate of 81% for his career. This is in contrast to the many decision victories Benson and Khabib won.

BJ was robbed in 3 of the biggest fights in his career

One could make a very strong case that BJ was robbed against Caol Uno, Georges St Pierre, and Frankie Edgar. Sure, the official record reflects 2 losses and a draw. But BJ actually beat each one of those guys. On top of that BJ was about 30 seconds away from securing a win over Jon Fitch as well. Another thing to consider is that BJ defeated top 10 LW Duane Ludwig in a WW fight thus robbing him of another top 10 win. Penn also defeated top 10 WW Rodrigo Gracie in a MW fight thus robbing him of yet another top 10 win.

In an alternate universe where BJ is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW...he becomes a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time. He becomes a 2x UFC LW champion with 4 title defenses and 11 top 10 wins in the LW division. Which of course would make him the clear cut GOAT over Khabib and Bendo at LW. He also ends up with victories over the 2 greatest WW's in MMA history along with a 3rd win over another top 10 WW of all time in Jon Fitch. He goes from 10 overall top 10 wins to 16. That would make him tied with Aldo at #4 for the most top 10 wins in MMA history. That would also take his peak record from a rather pedestrian looking 15-6-1 to a much more respectable 20-4.

--------------

So there you have it. When put into context BJ Penn had a top 10 caliber career all time. He has the numbers and the performances to stake a legitimate claim as the LW GOAT. He has the accomplishments to stake a claim as a top 15 p4p fighter of all time. With just a little bit of better luck Penn could be a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time right up there with Aldo and Mighty Mouse. His 7 fight losing streak came at the end of his career and like all fighters this should not be held against him. It's a real shame that Penn's legacy has taken such a hit over the years. Hopefully this will help some newer fans realize just how great BJ Penn actually was. Let's show our respect to the Prodigy...the GREAT BJ Penn!!!

bj-penn.gif
"In an alternative universe is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW.

I don't agree with the title of your thread at all. What I do believe is there is no doubt BJ is one of the greats at his peak. If your thread was BJ as the GOAT LW in my alternative universe than ok, I'll agree with that. You created the thread with your 'alternative universe' and explained very well your beliefs. So in 'OneofOne Universe', BJ is the GOAT LW there. Here in the universe I live in I would go with Khabib since he retired undefeated, beat all worthy challengers at the time and never really even had a scratch on his face. It's hard to argue with the 'alternative universe' theory since I've never been there. I'll take your word for it.
 
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He dominated the weak era lol

Anyone getting kod by some fat chump proves that

Any pro losing to a ducking random civilian regardless of the situation is fucking terrible
 
"In an alternative universe is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW.

I don't agree with the title of your thread at all. What I do believe is there is no doubt BJ is one of the greats and at his peak. If your thread was BJ as the GOAT LW in my alternative universe than ok, I'll agree with that. You created the thread with your 'alternative universe' and explained very well your beliefs. So in 'OneofOne Universe', BJ is the GOAT LW there. Here in the universe I live in I would go with Khabib since he retired undefeated, beat all worthy challengers at the time and never really even had a scratch on his face. It's hard to argue with the 'alternative universe' theory since I've never been there. I'll take your word for it.

Considering how easily that alternative universe could have been reality it helps put BJ's record and abilities into better context. That was my only point.
 
"In an alternative universe is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW.

I don't agree with the title of your thread at all. What I do believe is there is no doubt BJ is one of the greats and at his peak. If your thread was BJ as the GOAT LW in my alternative universe than ok, I'll agree with that. You created the thread with your 'alternative universe' and explained very well your beliefs. So in 'OneofOne Universe', BJ is the GOAT LW there. Here in the universe I live in I would go with Khabib since he retired undefeated, beat all worthy challengers at the time and never really even had a scratch on his face. It's hard to argue with the 'alternative universe' theory since I've never been there. I'll take your word for it.

To be fair, the "alternative universe" is watching fights and understanding context.
The other is wikipedia/fight finder universe.

Saying, for example, that BJ beat a top10 LW in Ludwig, being BJ a LW himself, is speaking truth.
Overlooking such performance just because it happened to take place at WW so doesnt refflects in the rankings is classic shertard/noob approach.

You can easily identify in sherdog those who rate fighters based on watching them fight and those who rather rate them based on wikipedia/internet/forums/rankings, etc...
 
Considering how easily that alternative universe could have been reality it helps put BJ's record and abilities into better context. That was my only point.
I don't need to be sold on BJ's greatness, I loved watching him fight in his prime. I just think the alternative universe idea where you ignore what really happened including changing some of the results, all his losses and poor management of his career (his own fault, he surrounded himself with yes people) is not one that I want to live in or even visit. You can call me closed-minded. I have no interest in going to the moon and even if Elon Musk offered me a free trip to Mars I wouldn't take it. I like it here on Earth in this universe.
 
Penn at his peak was something special but he didn't put in the work. He was the opposite of GSP who dedicated his life to his craft and the proof Is in the results.
 
Maybe if GSP didnt grease ... we would have gotten a better rematch.

GSP was so worried about BJ that his cheating led to UFC completely change the rules about who can apply vasaline on fighters.

Yes GSP cheated deliberately but wouldn't have changed the outcome. The first fight Gsp was green. Second fight he was too phisical. Bj had barely any chance

Hence I hate the Gsp perfect good guy narrative. He and his team work very scientific and they did that on purpose. What nice guy bullies smaller man.

Then why he sending emails asking usada what for and when they are going to test ? His fans say Hendricks was juiced and Gsp is so clean.

He is a normal guy just knows to not say mean things so people confuse it for genuine good guy. He's normal.
It's called class act cause it's an act.

Came to MW to steal a title shot vs the weakest champ in modern history. Like Jacare never got one, he held up the division for 7 + months for his selfish title grab. Never wanted to fight Joel Rob or Jacare or Vitor. True paper MW champ.

Gave a awesome fight though vs Ping.

Smart guy but morally average.

Greatest ww and top 3 goats to me.
 
To be fair, the "alternative universe" is watching fights and understanding context.
The other is wikipedia/fight finder universe.

Saying, for example, that BJ beat a top10 LW in Ludwig, being BJ a LW himself, is speaking truth.
Overlooking such performance just because it happened to take place at WW so doesnt refflects in the rankings is classic shertard/noob approach.

You can easily identify in sherdog those who rate fighters based on watching them fight and those who rather rate them based on wikipedia/internet/forums/rankings, etc...
"
BJ was one of my favorite fighters during that era, maybe my favorite.


"You can easily identify in sherdog those who rate fighters based on watching them fight."
I agree. That's why watching those controversial decision doesn't play into it so much. There is no denying how great BJ was during that time. He clearly lost the GSP fight even though it was close though. He came out with a great gameplan and surprised Fitch in the first round but after that Fitch started to turn the fight in his favor.

"Overlooking such performance just because it happened to take place at WW."
Not overlooking but not counting it at LW. Again, if you want to change all the facts of his career and create an alternate universe, then I can't argue BJ isn't the GOAT LW of this new alternate universe. He lost to Frankie 3 times, got beat up by GSP and Hughes at WW and the end of his career is a cautionary tale. He's a great fighter and one of the best LW's of all time but not the GOAT IMO.
 
Yes GSP cheated deliberately but wouldn't have changed the outcome. The first fight Gsp was green. Second fight he was too phisical. Bj had barely any chance

Hence I hate the Gsp perfect good guy narrative. He and his team work very scientific and they did that on purpose. What nice guy bullies smaller man.

Then why he sending emails asking usada what for and when they are going to test ? His fans say Hendricks was juiced and Gsp is so clean.

He is a normal guy just knows to not say mean things so people confuse it for genuine good guy. He's normal.
It's called class act cause it's an act.

Came to MW to steal a title shot vs the weakest champ in modern history. Like Jacare never got one, he held up the division for 7 + months for his selfish title grab. Never wanted to fight Joel Rob or Jacare or Vitor.
Gave a awesome fight though vs Ping.

Smart guy but morally average.

Greatest ww and top 3 goats to me.

Thats why i said "maybe" ... unfortunately we wont know for sure. Serra KO'd GSP then so can BJ if he had more chances.

I think it would have been more competive and most likely a decision win instead of a corner stoppage btw. But again ... we were robbed of knowing for sure.

Agree with the rest of what u said. GSP is a very smart guy .. kinda like a politician. Knows what to say to fool people into thinking he is this perfect person.
 
Thats why i said "maybe" ... unfortunately we wont know for sure. Serra KO'd GSP then so can BJ if he had more chances.

I think it would have been more competive and most likely a decision win instead of a corner stoppage btw. But again ... we were robbed of knowing for sure.

Agree with the rest of what u said. GSP is a very smart guy .. kinda like a politician. Knows what to say to fool people into thinking he is this perfect person.


It wasn't that much grease and Gsp was so dominant. If anything Bj likes to box more and Gsp likes to wrestle more.
 
It wasn't that much grease and Gsp was so dominant. If anything Bj likes to box more and Gsp likes to wrestle more.

On the ground BJ Penn got lit up because of the greasing.

Without that ... MAYBE he has more energy when standing after the grappling exchanges. Maybe he catches GSP with a sub like Matt Hughes did.

Again ... we will never know for sure either way thanks to GSPs greasing.

U can think u know how it would have turned out... but u dont.
 
Khabib is 29-0, never cut, never hurt.

BJ is 16-14. With many lopsided losses.

There is no debate about the first GSP fight. GSP won rounds 2 and 3. GSP won the final 12 minutes of that 15 minute fight. And then he absolutely wiped the floor with BJ in the rematch.

BJ up until his loss to Frankie, had a great run. He did very well for an early adopter/pioneer era fighter... and the numerous ways in which he falls short all fall 100% squarely on BJs shoulders. He didn't train hard enough to win the first Jens Pulver fight or the Caol Uno title fight. We all know he is the superior martial artist, but his LAZINESS, left him with insufficient cardio to close out those fights.

His case would have been strong if he retired after the first Frankie fight, but he didn't.

BJ is a top 5 LW.
That is nothing to be ashamed of.
 
Over the past 10 years or so BJ Penn's reputation and all time ranking has taken a major hit with the newer generation of fans. This is mostly due to the 7 fight losing streak he had at the end of his career. The viral clip of him getting ko'd by some random guy on the street didn't help. However, those of us who were around to actually witness his career know the truth about BJ Penn. He was without a doubt one of the greatest fighters the sport has ever seen. This is the case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and a top 15 all time p4p fighter.

Penn holds the record for most Top 10 Wins and the most Title Defenses in the LW division

Most people are aware that Penn is tied with Khabib for the most title defenses in LW history. But one thing I don't think people realize is that to this day BJ Penn is still holds the record for most top 10 wins in the lightweight division with 8. Sure Khabib tied his title defense record but Khabib hasn't matched his top 10 win record. And sure Benson Henderson tied his top 10 win record but not his title defense record. So going by the numbers BJ Penn is still the longest reigning and most dominant fighter we've ever seen in the division. Not Khabib, not Bendo, not Frankie, not Islam. It's BJ Penn.

BJ Penn has 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses

Penn is one of only 10 fighters in MMA history to have at least 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses. The group includes Fedor, Jones, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, Mighty Mouse, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, and Israel Adesanya. He is in elite company.

Penn was a Double Champ

BJ Penn sits alongside Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Conor McGregor, GSP, and Jon Jones as a Pride/UFC Double Champ.

Penn has the highest finishing rate in LW history

Out of BJ Penn's 12 victories in the LW division 11 of them were finishes. That gives him a 91% finishing rate at LW and an overall finishing rate of 81% for his career. This is in contrast to the many decision victories Benson and Khabib won.

BJ was robbed in 3 of the biggest fights in his career

One could make a very strong case that BJ was robbed against Caol Uno, Georges St Pierre, and Frankie Edgar. Sure, the official record reflects 2 losses and a draw. But BJ actually beat each one of those guys. On top of that BJ was about 30 seconds away from securing a win over Jon Fitch as well. Another thing to consider is that BJ defeated top 10 LW Duane Ludwig in a WW fight thus robbing him of another top 10 win. Penn also defeated top 10 WW Rodrigo Gracie in a MW fight thus robbing him of yet another top 10 win.

In an alternate universe where BJ is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW...he becomes a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time. He becomes a 2x UFC LW champion with 4 title defenses and 11 top 10 wins in the LW division. Which of course would make him the clear cut GOAT over Khabib and Bendo at LW. He also ends up with victories over the 2 greatest WW's in MMA history along with a 3rd win over another top 10 WW of all time in Jon Fitch. He goes from 10 overall top 10 wins to 16. That would make him tied with Aldo at #4 for the most top 10 wins in MMA history. That would also take his peak record from a rather pedestrian looking 15-6-1 to a much more respectable 20-4.

--------------

So there you have it. When put into context BJ Penn had a top 10 caliber career all time. He has the numbers and the performances to stake a legitimate claim as the LW GOAT. He has the accomplishments to stake a claim as a top 15 p4p fighter of all time. With just a little bit of better luck Penn could be a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time right up there with Aldo and Mighty Mouse. His 7 fight losing streak came at the end of his career and like all fighters this should not be held against him. It's a real shame that Penn's legacy has taken such a hit over the years. Hopefully this will help some newer fans realize just how great BJ Penn actually was. Let's show our respect to the Prodigy...the GREAT BJ Penn!!!

bj-penn.gif

I watched BJ when he first entered the UFC all the way through his career. I don't even consider all those losses towards the end of his career and IMO they don't affect his legacy at all. However, I will disagree on BJ being the GOAT LW.

Ben Henderson vs BJ Penn

Ben IMO is ahead of BJ at LW. Ben Henderson actually has tied his title defense record, Ben defended the LW belt 3x (Melendez, Diaz, and Edgar). Not only that, Ben also has more top 10 wins, Ben Henderson actually has 10 top 10 wins at LW, almost 11 top 10 wins, Khabilov was ranked just outside #11 when they fought. It's worth noting that when BJ fought at LW, there was literally 10 fighters in the division so it was far easier to gain top 10 wins as opposed to 10 years later when the division was far deeper.

Furthermore, Ben was also the WEC LW champion which was just as strong at the UFC LW division. If we compare them in their primes at LW, Ben also has a more impressive record at 21-5 (I'll consider it till he went up to WW in the UFC) while BJ was 11-3-1. Ben also has a better resume of higher level competition.

Khabib vs BJ Penn

I mean 28-0 at LW, come on. The man was completely dominant and never lost a fight, he lost two rounds in his entire UFC career. Both have a similar number of fights at LW, but Khabib was far more dominant and never lost. And he did it in a far deeper and more developed LW division. Both have 3 defenses, but Khabib has the edge being undefeated and dominant.

Frankie Edgar vs BJ Penn

This one is a bit closer than the other two. But IMO Edgar is also ranked higher on the all time LW list. The most important factor is that Edgar beat him 2x in title fights. Yes, the first fight was close, but by no means a robbery and Frankie won a close fight. Even if it was close, it doesn't matter considering Edgar beat him very convincingly in the rematch 50-45. BJ has 3x, defenses, while Edgar has 2 and a retained 1x. Edgar was 15-3-1 at LW while BJ was 11-3-1. Considering all that and the head to head, Edgar >BJ.

The thing about BJ is that in both his runs at LW, he was never the best LW. In his first UFC run at LW he wasn't a champion and lost to Pulver. And that loss wasn't debatable. Pulver at the time had the more impressive career at LW and beat BJ to become champ. And in his second UFC run, despite having 3x title defenses, Frankie Edgar beat him 2x and proved he was the better fighter. BJ fans like to debate the first fight, even if that was dam close, Frankie clearly won the rematch.

The point you made about robberies doesn't really prove much aside those being close fights that are still losses on his record. Fans that claim robbery don't realize that it goes both ways and if the fight went the other way, it would be just as debatable. Uno was a fight that could have gone either way. Edgar 1 was close but Frankie did enough to get the W. GSP won a close fight and this one is the clear of them all.

So overall at LW, you have 3 fighters that are ahead of BJ at LW. As for where he ranks all time? That's another conversation. You make a better case for him all time than at LW.
 
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