The Case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and top 15 P4P All Time

[pamirec]

I was taking your post seriously until the GSP “robbery”. Lol.

 

[Natural Order]

Skill wise he's probably #1 all-time. His win over Hughes is significantly better than anything Khabib ever managed in his career.

Resume wise those 14 losses are a killer. Then again Khabib had 16 warmup fights. Maybe a wash?

 

[pamirec]

Nonetheless, BJ is at least far better than people think. He could’ve stayed at lw and pad his record by beating the less talented lws back then. Instead, the warrior that he is, he always challenged himself with much more difficult competition. Fighting dudes bigger than him and stuff.

 

[mmacrisis]

Penn was a great fighter but didn't beat GSP. Penn's corner threw in the towel after round 4. He was owned during rounds 3/4 so right there you lost me.

 

[FreddieRoachsVoice]

I recently watched GSP/Penn 1 fight again and in no way, shape, or form did he win that fight. The commentary behind BJ is insufferable and the crowd was really into him which I guess collectively misled many people into thinking this fight was closer than it was (GSP's easily bloodied face didn't help either). GSP handily won rounds 2 and 3, no doubt.

Also, genuine LOL @ the list of BS in your alternate history. How about if BJ actually took training seriously, he would be a top fighter of all time and not the biggest waste of potential of all time?

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

They both have 3 title defences

but Khabib is 29-0 and BJ is 16-14-2




BJ has more losses than Khabib has taken good punches

And Prime RDA, Conor, Gaethje, Dustin, Barboza >>> Sanchez, Florian, Sherk, Joe Daddy

I'm not a Penn super fan, but strength of schedule is a thing and I wondered who had the better one.
For Khabib: the record of his opponents when they fought and since they fought (which includes their losses to Khabib)

Khabib's opponents had a record of 282-115-4 (.703) when they fought him and a record of 161-131-3 (.545) since fighting him for a total of 443-251-7 (.631).

I've only added up BJ's opponents overall records, and they come out to 580-240-14-8
BJ Penn undoubtedly faced better competition than Khabib by 20-25%, raw numbers wise.
However, Khabib is still the greater fighter.
BJ is was truly what his nickname was, The Prodigy. But not all prodigies live up to their full potential.

 

[Sweater of AV]

GOAT. P4P and weight classes are irrelevant.

 

[Pious Augustus]

Over the past 10 years or so BJ Penn's reputation and all time ranking has taken a major hit with the newer generation of fans. This is mostly due to the 7 fight losing streak he had at the end of his career. The viral clip of him getting ko'd by some random guy on the street didn't help. However, those of us who were around to actually witness his career know the truth about BJ Penn. He was without a doubt one of the greatest fighters the sport has ever seen. This is the case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and a top 15 all time p4p fighter.

Penn holds the record for most Top 10 Wins and the most Title Defenses in the LW division

Most people are aware that Penn is tied with Khabib for the most title defenses in LW history. But one thing I don't think people realize is that to this day BJ Penn is still holds the record for most top 10 wins in the lightweight division with 8. Sure Khabib tied his title defense record but Khabib hasn't matched his top 10 win record. And sure Benson Henderson tied his top 10 win record but not his title defense record. So going by the numbers BJ Penn is still the longest reigning and most dominant fighter we've ever seen in the division. Not Khabib, not Bendo, not Frankie, not Islam. It's BJ Penn.

BJ Penn has 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses

Penn is one of only 10 fighters in MMA history to have at least 10 top 10 wins and 3 title defenses. The group includes Fedor, Jones, Anderson, GSP, Aldo, Mighty Mouse, Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, and Israel Adesanya. He is in elite company.

Penn was a Double Champ

BJ Penn sits alongside Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Conor McGregor, GSP, and Jon Jones as a Pride/UFC Double Champ.

Penn has the highest finishing rate in LW history

Out of BJ Penn's 12 victories in the LW division 11 of them were finishes. That gives him a 91% finishing rate at LW and an overall finishing rate of 81% for his career. This is in contrast to the many decision victories Benson and Khabib won.

BJ was robbed in 3 of the biggest fights in his career

One could make a very strong case that BJ was robbed against Caol Uno, Georges St Pierre, and Frankie Edgar. Sure, the official record reflects 2 losses and a draw. But BJ actually beat each one of those guys. On top of that BJ was about 30 seconds away from securing a win over Jon Fitch as well. Another thing to consider is that BJ defeated top 10 LW Duane Ludwig in a WW fight thus robbing him of another top 10 win. Penn also defeated top 10 WW Rodrigo Gracie in a MW fight thus robbing him of yet another top 10 win.

In an alternate universe where BJ is awarded the victories in those controversial fights, holds on for 30 more seconds against Jon Fitch, and fights Duane Ludwig at LW and Rodrigo Gracie at WW...he becomes a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time. He becomes a 2x UFC LW champion with 4 title defenses and 11 top 10 wins in the LW division. Which of course would make him the clear cut GOAT over Khabib and Bendo at LW. He also ends up with victories over the 2 greatest WW's in MMA history along with a 3rd win over another top 10 WW of all time in Jon Fitch. He goes from 10 overall top 10 wins to 16. That would make him tied with Aldo at #4 for the most top 10 wins in MMA history. That would also take his peak record from a rather pedestrian looking 15-6-1 to a much more respectable 20-4.

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So there you have it. When put into context BJ Penn had a top 10 caliber career all time. He has the numbers and the performances to stake a legitimate claim as the LW GOAT. He has the accomplishments to stake a claim as a top 15 p4p fighter of all time. With just a little bit of better luck Penn could be a clear cut top 10 fighter of all time right up there with Aldo and Mighty Mouse. His 7 fight losing streak came at the end of his career and like all fighters this should not be held against him. It's a real shame that Penn's legacy has taken such a hit over the years. Hopefully this will help some newer fans realize just how great BJ Penn actually was. Let's show our respect to the Prodigy...the GREAT BJ Penn!!!

everyone was a top 10 at the time, there was like 10 ufc lightweights before they closed the division

 

[CroCopsLHK]

Thanks G. I definitely feel BJ is underappreciated

 

[BEATDOWNS]

BJ's legacy was tarnished so bad they had to let Sam Alvey lose 9 times to try and save some face for the guy.

 

[BEATDOWNS]

everyone was a top 10 at the time, there was like 10 ufc lightweight before they closed the division

Even Vick would have been in the top 10.

 

[Shilajit]

Penn was a great fighter but didn't beat GSP. Penn's corner threw in the towel after round 4. He was owned during rounds 3/4 so right there you lost me.

He beat the living shit out of GSP in their first fight

 

[mirko>anyone]

I was taking your post seriously until the GSP “robbery”. Lol.

Exactly. He clearly lost rounds 2 and 3.

He started off great for the first few minutes of round 1.

 

[Clark Rogers]

It's sad how many people here don't know their history, think things didn't exist before 2010.

 

[Chomsky Honk]

Gomi gets underrated in these discussions a lot which then underrates BJ's LW resume because Gomi is his best win in the division. I also think BJ won that second Uno fight and that first Frankie fight was a stalemate at worst for BJ (I thought BJ won but it's not very impressive to have a 25 min staring contest).

Also I don't care about the 170 lb wins for BJ's LW resume other than the Ludwig victory cause that fight really should have been at 155.

You could easily give it to Khabib as well imo. Undefeated and a similar number of big/elite wins to BJ and Gomi.

I would definitely put BJ in a top 20 GOAT list

 

[dogsdonutsdragons]

his record a bit like randy couture takes a bit to understand for new fans. a lot of that you had to be there for but when you break down their resume and who they fought and when they fought them you see why their record is the way it is.

imo if penn stayed at lw his whole career and developed cardio he was goat. he didn't . despite that he still holds records for the weight class. def a unique character in the sport who shouldnt be forgotten

 

[Lawrence]

WW fights mean nothing for LW status.

Conor earned a lightweight title shot off a welterweight win over Cerrone eh?

He may well get another one with a win over Chandler @ 170

 

[Psychojoe86]

It’s a matter of weighing two things.

1) bj Penn is the most accomplished lightweight fighter ever
2) khabib is the most dominant lightweight ever

if khabib kept fighting, he had strong chance of winning more. But he didn’t.

Both fighters have a case for the position

 

[Soggust]

I started watching MMA in the WEC / Rousey era (2010ish?).

I have shit on BJ Penn non-stop as his career went into decline as I started watching MMA.

He's got almost no case for a p4p GOAT imo, but I will admit you have swayed me into a lot more respect with your argument, OP.

 

[orca]

i hate khabob egghuggers but khabib was way better and is ahead of bj imo