Kind of off topic but I wish there was such a sport as "no standing strikes / anything else goes". Basically submission grappling with strikes on the floor. Only win by KO or sub / points not a concern. (EDIT: & no gi) Would love to watch the Dagestani school compete at that imaginary sport.
Not that I even disagree, just quoting this sentence because I think it is interesting historically-speaking. My, how times have changed from way back in the day when Sambo practitioners would be described as "leglock guys"
Kind of too topic but I wish there was such a sport as "no standing strikes / anything else goes". Basically submission grappling with strikes on the floor. Only win by KO or sub / points not a concern. Would love to watch the Dagestani school compete at that imaginary sport.
Not that I even disagree, just quoting this sentence because I think it is interesting historically-speaking. My, how times have changed from way back in the day when Sambo practitioners would be described as "leglock guys"
These stupid fake news are weird
Id pay to watch islam or any non jitz guy in a jitz match, specially with a gi. There are levels to this. Id probably beat islam myself in a pure jitz match. Stop this
Kind of off topic but I wish there was such a sport as "no standing strikes / anything else goes". Basically submission grappling with strikes on the floor. Only win by KO or sub / points not a concern. (EDIT: & no gi) Would love to watch the Dagestani school compete at that imaginary sport.
Not that I even disagree, just quoting this sentence because I think it is interesting historically-speaking. My, how times have changed from way back in the day when Sambo practitioners would be described as "leglock guys"
These stupid fake news are weird
Id pay to watch islam or any non jitz guy in a jitz match, specially with a gi. There are levels to this. Id probably beat islam myself in a pure jitz match. Stop this
I think only people that train BJJ realize this. I train with a high level mma fighter that is a brown belt and when he goes against other brown and black belts that only train BJJ, not mma, it's a night and day difference. I can only imagine if they were actual world class grapplers like those that compete in ADCC.
That body-lock style that the Dagestanis like is negated by a good closed guard and/or elevation.
They pass with a "Feet-knees-hips" ideology, it's very common in BJJ, they just use lacing the feet/knees where most guys like to clear them for an outside pass. They work their way up to the hips where they will either pin an opponents shoulders with a lot of chest pressure or swim around to back control.
Where the Dagestanis are different from most when it comes to the body lock is that they lace the legs with their legs and pin the hips with their hips
This frees up the chest to either apply pin pressure, or to allow them to sit up and punch without getting swept or elevated. With punching involved, this is very hard to stop once it starts. You literally have to turn and give some space up to expose your back which leads to
This all starts from them keeping a solid base on their knees with their hips really low to pin the feet, then the knees, then hips (as I mentioned)
So for Oliveira to stop this, he has to elevate the hips to negate their pinning pressure and try to get underneath or behind him. Maybe attack legs just to get up/get out without committing to hard to anying that would lead to a mad scramble where Islam could wind up on top in a good leg-lace position. He also needs to control underhooks and keep his head tight the entire time so that Islam will have difficulty using his chest to pressure the hips as well as have a hard time punching from a top position. Notice Khabib and Kislam usually punch in high volume when their opponent's shoulder(s) get pinned to the mat or their hip is stuck.
Charles needs to play a REAL butterfly
Hook is elevating the hips, head is tight to the chest or shoulder and the underhook is stopping the pin/back swim
That elevation is going to be key, as will controlling at least one arm. Oliveira has to be EXTREMELY proactive in doing this and not let it turn in to a grind but not getting so caught up in the scramble that he exposes himself.
Charles doesn't have to always get on top (he should definitely do so when he gest the RIGHT opportunity), he just needs to get OUT. Maybe even control the head and start attacking with chokes to transition to the back. If Islam tires out, I think Oliveira should start looking to control the top position or the back Aljo style.
TL;DR:
Islam- Control the feet, control the knees, control the hips and pin the shoulders down to start opening up gound and pound and/or back exposure
Charles- Keep head tight to Islam, fight for underhooks and elevate
You clearly missed Jailton Almedia's DWCS appearance. BJJ guy who ragdolled 9-0 Dagestani Combat Sambist Nasrudin Nasrudinov: taking him down, controlling him, and ultimately submitting him in the second round.
Then there's Gadzhi Omargadzhiev, another undefeated Dagestani Combat Sambo guy with extensive amateur experience who was getting thoroughly worked by BJJ guy Caio Borralho until the illegal knee by Caio in the final round.
These are MMA anecdotes, but apparently that's what you're after given your own example.
Kind of off topic but I wish there was such a sport as "no standing strikes / anything else goes". Basically submission grappling with strikes on the floor. Only win by KO or sub / points not a concern. (EDIT: & no gi) Would love to watch the Dagestani school compete at that imaginary sport.
Combat Jiu-Jitsu is the closest thing to that. Open-handed/palm strikes are allowed once at least one competitor is grounded. It comes across as a bit goofy/gimmicky at first, but it is sort of a neat middle ground and I too have wondered whether the presence of limited strikes would allow someone like Khabib or Islam to beat an elite submission grappler in this ruleset.
I think only people that train BJJ realize this. I train with a high level mma fighter that is a brown belt and when he goes against other brown and black belts that only train BJJ, not mma, it's a night and day difference. I can only imagine if they were actual world class grapplers like those that compete in ADCC.
That body-lock style that the Dagestanis like is negated by a good closed guard and/or elevation.
They pass with a "Feet-knees-hips" ideology, it's very common in BJJ, they just use lacing the feet/knees where most guys like to clear them for an outside pass. They work their way up to the hips where they will either pin an opponents shoulders with a lot of chest pressure or swim around to back control.
Where the Dagestanis are different from most when it comes to the body lock is that they lace the legs with their legs and pin the hips with their hips
This frees up the chest to either apply pin pressure, or to allow them to sit up and punch without getting swept or elevated. With punching involved, this is very hard to stop once it starts. You literally have to turn and give some space up to expose your back which leads to
This all starts from them keeping a solid base on their knees with their hips really low to pin the feet, then the knees, then hips (as I mentioned)
So for Oliveira to stop this, he has to elevate the hips to negate their pinning pressure and try to get underneath or behind him. Maybe attack legs just to get up/get out without committing to hard to anying that would lead to a mad scramble where Islam could wind up on top in a good leg-lace position. He also needs to control underhooks and keep his head tight the entire time so that Islam will have difficulty using his chest to pressure the hips as well as have a hard time punching from a top position. Notice Khabib and Kislam usually punch in high volume when their opponent's shoulder(s) get pinned to the mat or their hip is stuck.
Charles needs to play a REAL butterfly
Hook is elevating the hips, head is tight to the chest or shoulder and the underhook is stopping the pin/back swim
That elevation is going to be key, as will controlling at least one arm. Oliveira has to be EXTREMELY proactive in doing this and not let it turn in to a grind but not getting so caught up in the scramble that he exposes himself.
Charles doesn't have to always get on top (he should definitely do so when he gest the RIGHT opportunity), he just needs to get OUT. Maybe even control the head and start attacking with chokes to transition to the back. If Islam tires out, I think Oliveira should start looking to control the top position or the back Aljo style.
TL;DR:
Islam- Control the feet, control the knees, control the hips and pin the shoulders down to start opening up gound and pound and/or back exposure
Charles- Keep head tight to Islam, fight for underhooks and elevate
You can talk best guys all you want in the gym. But Charles is the best guy of all time. There's only one best guy and that's Charles when it comes to BJJ and MMA
Combat Jiu-Jitsu is the closest thing to that. Open-handed/palm strikes are allowed once both competitors are grounded/engaged. It comes across as a bit goofy/gimmicky at first, but it is sort of a neat middle ground and I too have wondered whether the presence of limited strikes would allow someone like Khabib or Islam to beat an elite submission grappler in this ruleset.
Cool thanks. What a weird half-measure though. Without the ability to KO someone (I'm assuming they're pretty damn rare with open hands) there is next to no impetus to commit towards a strike. I would love tossing GNP but would be tentative as hell tossing a limb in hopes of, best case payoff, MAYBE drawing a tiny amount of blood and slightly disorienting them with a palm strike.
I can't be totally alone in this. There'd have to be a demographic besides me wanting submission grappling with striking (ground striking only I mean). MMA entrepreneurs, hop to it! Unlike pure BJJ if any guy was world champ in THAT sport I'd feel confident saying "as long as he can get TDs, this guy is the next champ at <insert division here>"
These stupid fake news are weird
Id pay to watch islam or any non jitz guy in a jitz match, specially with a gi. There are levels to this. Id probably beat islam myself in a pure jitz match. Stop this
Cool thanks. What a weird half-measure though. Without the ability to KO someone (I'm assuming they're pretty damn rare with open hands) there is next to no impetus to commit towards a strike. I would love tossing GNP but would be tentative as hell tossing a limb in hopes of, best case payoff, MAYBE drawing a tiny amount of blood and slightly disorienting them with a palm strike.
I can't be totally alone in this. There'd have to be a demographic besides me wanting submission grappling with striking (ground striking only I mean). MMA entrepreneurs, hop to it! Unlike pure BJJ if any guy was world champ in THAT sport I'd feel confident saying "as long as he can get TDs, this guy is the next champ at <insert division here>"
So yes, the elimination of punches, hammerfists, and elbows absolutely mitigates the efficacy of GnP and thus the theoretical risk posed by it. This primarily manifests in the limited ability to, say, punch your way out of a committed leg-lock attempt as MMA fighters often do to great effect. Instead, strikes typically only seem to come into play when one guy has solid and sturdy top position (mount, stacked guard, submission attempt almost locked in, etc.) and decides to uncork a few blows to achieve an easier guard-pass in the ensuing distraction, initiate a desperate scramble, to distract their opponent from hand-fighting their choke, and the like. The rest of the match will generally look like your average high-level no-gi match. You don't really see that many clean KOs.
However, you do occasionally see TKOs on the ground where one dude gets trapped in a bad spot and the person on top goes to town:
I'd consider such finishes fairly rare, but I guess they serve as something as a proof of concept in that the strikes -- even open-handed -- alter the game. That's not to say they're equivalent to what you're proposing, of course.
EDIT: At the 2022 Lightweights CJJ Worlds we saw the first clean KO from palm strikes. Dude went to sleep:
Rickson blew through Sambo guys in tournaments. His only loss was some odd takedown rule. He was never submitted. Rigan finished the same guy soon afterward so there you have it. And RDA is not a top level BJJ guy.
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