Anyone following the huge chess cheating controversy?

[IamStryker]

Watched a bit of this and if I understood this correctly it seems really clear that Hans is cheating. He has had games where his moves match perfectly with the chess engine stock fish. The best players ever do not match the chess engine that much of the time.

 

[Fedorgasm]

Watched a bit of this and if I understood this correctly it seems really clear that Hans is cheating. He has had games where his moves match perfectly with the chess engine stock fish. The best players ever do not match the chess engine that much of the time.

Yep. So many people are accusing Magnus of being a baby or a sore loser when they don't understand the situation.

Magnus loses all the time and he is gracious in defeat.

People say there is no evidence, well duh, not every crime has evidence. I think Magnus is trying to get the chess officials to LOOK for evidence or crack down on cheating. Because right now they do very little.

You're not every going to prove Hans cheated in that last game because the opportunity has passed. They should've searched the players and blocked wireless signals.

There is a tiny earpiece that's so small you need to use a magnet to get it out of your ear. It's completely not visible when it's in there. I don't know if that's the method he used but I'm saying it would've been very easy to use that method.

Just think about this logically.

1. Tons of money on the line
2. A sport that does very little to prevent/catch cheaters
3. A player with a history of cheating
4. He has a coach that also has a history of cheating
5. His moves mirrored the chess engine's moves at critical points in the game, which players better than him can't even do.
6. When asked why he chose a particular move, his explanation was that Magnus played that opening before and he happened to study that game yesterday, but that wasn't true. There is no such record of that game. And the likelihood that Hans would've studied that exact opening the prior day is very low. Like winning the lottery odds.

 

[LEWIS540]

Slightly different, but there was a similar scandal a few years back in poker........it was very difficult to prove absolutely he was a cheat, but anyone with half a brain could see the guy was cheating to a certainty of 99.999999%.

Think the poker example was more blatant than this, but outside of getting an admission from the guilty party, it's going to be hard to prove.

 

[Fedorgasm]

Watched a bit of this and if I understood this correctly it seems really clear that Hans is cheating. He has had games where his moves match perfectly with the chess engine stock fish. The best players ever do not match the chess engine that much of the time.

Jesus Christ is that guy annoying. This is one of those videos where a person is just watching another person's video and commenting over it and not adding any value. His garbage video is like an hour long.

Here is the original with all the knowledge you seek and it's only 23 minutes:

 

[mjmj]

Watched a bit of this and if I understood this correctly it seems really clear that Hans is cheating. He has had games where his moves match perfectly with the chess engine stock fish. The best players ever do not match the chess engine that much of the time.

And if you look, you can find videos with "evidence" that he didn't cheat. Its all clickbait.

 

[robotsonic]

And if you look, you can find videos with "evidence" that he didn't cheat. Its all clickbait.

If you understand chess engines you will see that the evidence that he cheated vs evidence he didn't is overwhelming from a statistical perspective at least for the online games he has played in recent times. He has 10 games on record where he matches the Stockfish engine move for move for the entire game against high level opposition (2400+) and some of these are as recent as a few months ago. This would put his performance level at around a 3500 ELO rating. Magnus is the best chess player ever and can't even hit 2900.

There is absolutely no way Hans played those games without using Stockfish, these aren't quaint little miniatures where you can possibly hit 100% accuracy due to the limited amount of moves, these are 30 move plus games against high level opposition...statistically this is impossible. The size of the decision tree is astronomical at this point, being able to calculate lines at the level of an engine with trillions of possibilities in hand is absolutely impossible for a human.

This guy is a cheat, straight up.

 

[robotsonic]

Also like people have said before Magnus has lost many times to other players he considers honest and and taken it in good grace, he's not throwing a tantrum here.

 

[IamStryker]

And if you look, you can find videos with "evidence" that he didn't cheat. Its all clickbait.

Link plz

 

[mjmj]

If you understand chess engines you will see that the evidence that he cheated vs evidence he didn't is overwhelming from a statistical perspective at least for the online games he has played in recent times. He has 10 games on record where he matches the Stockfish engine move for move for the entire game against high level opposition (2400+) and some of these are as recent as a few months ago. This would put his performance level at around a 3500 ELO rating. Magnus is the best chess player ever and can't even hit 2900.

There is absolutely no way Hans played those games without using Stockfish, these aren't quaint little miniatures where you can possibly hit 100% accuracy due to the limited amount of moves, these are 30 move plus games against high level opposition...statistically this is impossible. The size of the decision tree is astronomical at this point, being able to calculate lines at the level of an engine with trillions of possibilities in hand is absolutely impossible for a human.

This guy is a cheat, straight up.

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not saying I think one way or the other. I have no idea. I’m just saying all of these Youtube videos are pure clickbait and you can find videos claiming both guilt and innocence.

 

[MRDOG]

Slightly different, but there was a similar scandal a few years back in poker........it was very difficult to prove absolutely he was a cheat, but anyone with half a brain could see the guy was cheating to a certainty of 99.999999%.

Think the poker example was more blatant than this, but outside of getting an admission from the guilty party, it's going to be hard to prove.

There has been multiple poker scandles that have been caught.

- Pitbull Poker (Online: Super User)
- Absolute Poker (Online: Super User)

Five brick and motar

 

[Madmick]

Link plz

Analyzing the classical ELO-gain from 2021 on:
https://pawnalyze.com/chess-drama/2022/09/05/Analyzing-Allegations-Niemann-Cheating-Scandal.html
Analyzing the classical ELO-gain from 2020 on:
https://victorhogrefe.medium.com/did-niemann-cheat-c9fb2faae45c
The math establishes his rise, as a matter of ELO, isn't beyond the realm of credulity, or even too grossly outside the norm for young players who are exploding.

The chess cheating expert, upon whose work the above video that went viral (thanks to Hikaru) is based, analzyed the past two years of Hans' play himself, and has said he doesn't believe Niemann is cheating:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-hans-niemann-cheating-world-renowned-expert-ken-regan-analyzes

That French transgender YouTuber mathematician honed in on an incredibly unlikely performance by Hans in a sequence of six consecutive tournaments, but that YouTuber fucked up the math. You can see numerous viewers on Hikaru's stream during his reaction video that are clearly capable of comprehending the math point this out:

 

[LEWIS540]

There has been multiple poker scandles that have been caught.

- Pitbull Poker (Online: Super User)
- Absolute Poker (Online: Super User)

Five brick and motar

Not Mike Postle, which I'm talking about.......and almost certainly 100s of others.

 

[Drunken Meat Fist]

The problem is that Hans has a history of cheating online. He only got caught once (I dont count the first one as he was a child even if that really shows a tendency) but chess experts analysed his matches and several have a very strong tendency to be cheating. He obviously doesnt have a problem with it. Its really rare in pro circuit thats why this is a scandal. Also listen to his interview about it. His explanation is even more damning than anything else. As Niemann earns his money with Chess I would prefer a lifetime ban. You cant allow cheaters.

I would not play him as a gm. Imo Magnus has more than a point and its really not only about Magnus. Magnus btw looses all the time. This happens in chess. Its not about loosing but really specific Niemann and his cheating and obvious disregard for doing wrong.

This, - I gave up watching chess awhile ago, it's an all-consuming rabbit hole, it's porn minus the attractive people and sex, but I was there for this and after about 30 seconds of confusion, i figured that's about the amount of time it would take to get your breath, consciousness, bearings, heartbeat and pupil dilation coming back into some kind of mental processing re-ignition after a Billy Jack kick to the soul synapse in the head.

 

[robotsonic]

Analyzing the classical ELO-gain from 2021 on:
https://pawnalyze.com/chess-drama/2022/09/05/Analyzing-Allegations-Niemann-Cheating-Scandal.html
Analyzing the classical ELO-gain from 2020 on:
https://victorhogrefe.medium.com/did-niemann-cheat-c9fb2faae45c
The math establishes his rise, as a matter of ELO, isn't beyond the realm of credulity, or even too grossly outside the norm for young players who are exploding.

The chess cheating expert, upon whose work the above video that went viral (thanks to Hikaru) is based, analzyed the past two years of Hans' play himself, and has said he doesn't believe Niemann is cheating:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-hans-niemann-cheating-world-renowned-expert-ken-regan-analyzes

That French transgender YouTuber mathematician honed in on an incredibly unlikely performance by Hans in a sequence of six consecutive tournaments, but that YouTuber fucked up the math. You can see numerous viewers on Hikaru's stream during his reaction video that are clearly capable of comprehending the math point this out:

His ELO gain isn't impossible but it is at the top of the pile among young players in the last few years and he definitely is not better than Erigaisi, Gukesh, Abdusattorov, etc, which would be weird given his recent form. His form seems to drop off massively in higher level tournaments where there are more eyes on him, which doesn't make him guilty of anything but certainly adds to the pile of circumstantial evidence that he's smart enough to not make his cheating too obvious. Let's remember he only beat Magnus once and ended up like 8th in that tournament.

Also that professor's analysis was flawed as he averaged across his games over two years, it's obvious as hell he isn't going to be cheating in every game. Funny how he only ever seems to hit that high 90% accuracy online where there are less eyes on him.

It's fair to say this guy is a very, very good chess player which is why he probably only needs to cheat a few times at certain times in the game, he's slipped online and got lazy keeping up the facade which is why there is a 45 move 100% accuracy game on record for him. You cannot hit 100% accuracy on a game of that many moves against any engine in the last 15 years unless you are yourself using an engine. Let alone do it 10 fucking times! You are talking quadrillions to one here...

 

[robotsonic]

And it bears repeating because lots of people keep going back to this argument about Magnus being salty....Magnus has lost many times in his career and never reacted like this before, you think he doesn't like the guy's haircut or something?

 

[PurpleStorm]

I’m digging this controversy. It has taught me a lot about how people cheat in chess tournaments and that as human beings we are all flawed.

I can understand Magnus’ frustrations. Still feeling the actual hard evidence in this particular matter won’t be found. I’ve learned more about OTB tournaments. And governing bodies versus sites and apps.

It’s clear that non-OTB chess tournaments are rife with cheating. Interested in what measures might be taken to reduce it. Or whether that’s likely, considering that engines have overtaken human play.

 

[SammyPops]

2 sweeds? no dice. I need russians and jews in my chess games.

 

[Takes_Two_To_Tango]

Who are some good chess youtubers? Just recently gotten into the game and am interested in checking out some vids.

 

[Bargey]

Whatever this guy did in past games, surely you have to have some proof before you publicly call out a fellow competitor for cheating?

 

[Drunken Meat Fist]

Whatever this guy did in past games, surely you have to have some proof before you publicly call out a fellow competitor for cheating?

Isn't that the whole point, he didn't not have enough to make a personal humongous call. His m.o. isn't stirring drama, it's the way you make your statement without tar and feather.