Are submissions more effective in the gym?

[Goat Poster]

Are people afraid to scramble hard and fuck their necks or whatever limb it is being attacked while in practice?

Would that help explain why Poirier is always going for guillotines but can't get one in a real fight?

 

[milliniar]

Well yes people tend to tap easier in training cause it's just practice. And you just either continue within the roll time or wait for your next team mate.

A spar for fight prep though should fight the sub more. Also if using head gear it is harder to break out of some positions. Including that guillotine.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

Also for the example of guillotines people often train grappling without MMA gloves on. It's much easier to get guillotines without gloves on. Poirer probably would have finished a few of those he tried on BSD without gloves.

 

[Dr. Rose]

Yes, heavy rolling in practice is a problem, a las Cain. Sparring heavy is also a problem.

My best guess is that he doesn't practice them often, even though he is at ATT. He works his boxing a lot more than others there as well. Unless he picked it before joining them, but I cannot recall.

Also, maybe a lefty through him off. They don't things right, after all.

 

[Relentless chase]

Are people afraid to scramble hard and fuck their necks or whatever limb it is being attacked while in practice?

Would that help explain why Poirier is always going for guillotines but can't get one in a real fight?

 

[BabyBlue_Bomber]

During sparing competitors would tap right away, since they don’t want to get seriously hurt or injured…

Also, I’m sure in actual competition there is a good amount of adrenaline to help mask any pain that they would normally feel in training.

 

[Corrado Soprano]

Derrick Lewis deserves credit for debunking ju-jitsu when he realized you can just stand up.

 

[empsim]

Oliveira's armbar vs Ferguson is actually another example of that.

10/10 people would've tapped to that in sparring (and some other fighters too) but it's not that easy to snap the arm when the opponent is strong and you're all sweaty.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Yeah, you tap much earlier in training than you would in comp. You're not going to risk an injury in training whereas in a fight guys will often take a small injury to get out and fight on.

 

[Spath]

Plenty of good answers already. Short answer is yes, they tap earlier since it is training and you can continue rolling/sparring after the tap. You obviously don’t want to get injured ever, but even less in training.

Depends on the submission applied, too. I’d tap early if I’m in a deep arm bar, but I’d try to fight a choke that wasn’t cranking my neck or something like that.

A properly applied deep guillotine should make you tap, but it’s hard to get those in (especially with the gloves, I’d assume). At that level fighters also defend well, so they make the right moves to lessen the pressure and make the escape possible… Am I getting off topic here? Shit, I don’t know

 

[J Danger]

The problem with guillotines, imo, is that they’re a double edged sword for your arms. I didn’t like going for them even in training.

 

[Guest84]

Are people afraid to scramble hard and fuck their necks or whatever limb it is being attacked while in practice?

Would that help explain why Poirier is always going for guillotines but can't get one in a real fight?

It's a couple of things

In sparring you never crank with all your might, which would be the most effective way of doing jiu jitsu.
When you come to the cage, your muscle memory is for a controlled application of the submission. When you see someone that is able to crank the hell out of one, they are deemed assholes and career ender.

So you have guys that are not used to applying it full force, and you got the guy willing to get hurt during a match. That makes the escape more of a high probability.

 

[Luckyme]

Derrick Lewis deserves credit for debunking ju-jitsu when he realized you can just stand up.

That only works when you weigh close to 300 lbs and are fighting other slow heavyweights.

 

[Johnnny]

Poirier has 5 wins by submission in the UFC. He had Khabib stuck in a guillotine for over 30 seconds and Khabib had weighed in at abudhabiweight for that fight.

 

[BodybagJohnny**]

Even if Poirier can't finish them, being able to threaten the submission can be useful, just as it's useful to threaten takedowns. It gives the other guy something else to worry about.

My guess is he's able to adjust that thing without gloves in a manner that he can't with them on. Or... maybe his training partners are lower level than who he's applying it to in fights.

 

[markys00]

No

 

[Blanqa Blanqua]

Derrick Lewis deserves credit for debunking ju-jitsu when he realized you can just stand up.

Corrado on dubbs, but out here dropping knowledge.

#hespek

 

[SkinnyClaw]

At my gym we always say stuff like 'I wouldn't tap to it in comp, but it was tight' etc, its just common sense to tap early in practice, why fuck your joints when you're just rolling and there's literally nothing on the line.

 

[Pierced7681]

Here’s the real answer

Majority of people using guillotines don’t hit the arteries properly and they wont choke you unconscious, they just put a shit ton of pain on your throat area. You’ll tap to it in training a lot easier than you would in a fight because it’s mostly just a “pain” move. Very rare to see someone go out cold from a standard guillotine, can only really think of Kongo getting slept by Mir off the top of my head.

Do I think guillotines are worth using in mma? It’s debatable, you can burn out your arms and lose position if you don’t get it, so it’s high risk/high reward.

 

[CasualBot]

Subs are harder for money.