Law Arizona House votes to repeal 1864 law banning abortions

RoastBeast said:
What exactly is the argument against personal responsibility?
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Personal responsibility by removing the ability for the individual to make their own choices. What's the base ideology being used to say that abortion should not be allowed? It a religious one. Forcing people to have kids they don't want using a religion they don't follow.

More over using "personal responsibility" to justify holding wages down and removing social program, so that those that benefit most from the system can justify hording more of the wealth. Don't forget that those same individuals that benefit most from the system are the same ones that have their hand out taking from the system. Instead of insuring that the reward for productivity was kept high so all can be prosperous, they have used the system to maintain and ever growing disproportionate wealth gap.
 
Seano said:
Imagine if we devoted the same energy to homelessness or poverty as we do the right to abort babies.
This country has lost its way.
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I'm cool with super late term abortions on the homeless
 
Sinister said:
A law that has no exceptions for rape or incest has nothing to do with "personal responsibility."
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dirtypablo said:
Those stupid irresponsible little girls who end up pregnant after being raped by their fathers should have thought about the consequences of their actions!
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I 100% agree when it comes to rape but that's really a very small part of a person's personal responsibility.

LMP said:
Personal responsibility by removing the ability for the individual to make their own choices. What's the base ideology being used to say that abortion should not be allowed? It a religious one. Forcing people to have kids they don't want using a religion they don't follow.

More over using "personal responsibility" to justify holding wages down and removing social program, so that those that benefit most from the system can justify hording more of the wealth. Don't forget that those same individuals that benefit most from the system are the same ones that have their hand out taking from the system. Instead of insuring that the reward for productivity was kept high so all can be prosperous, they have used the system to maintain and ever growing disproportionate wealth gap.
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I guess the base ideology is when a person decides that the babies life has value when it's inside of the mother's stomach. Some people think it's at conception and other people think it has zero value until it passes through the birth canal. I personally think there is no perfect way to ever answer that question so I'm fine with a first trimester compromise.

Since we're in a thread about abortions, lets apply personal responsibility to the subject matter. Women abort children as a method of birth control far more than they do because they got raped. Why isn't personal responsibility applied to the men and women who have unprotected sex and conceive a child that they either don't want or don't have the means of caring for?

You don't trip and fall down and get pregnant. Getting pregnant takes a pretty deliberate act. Personal responsibility would be not risking getting pregnant for a night of pleasure. There are plenty of ways to still get the same or similar pleasure without risking a pregnancy but a lot of people throw that out the window for a night of fun. That's the personal responsibility I'm talking about. Take ownership of your actions.
 
RoastBeast said:
I guess the base ideology is when a person decides that the babies life has value when it's inside of the mother's stomach. Some people think it's at conception and other people think it has zero value until it passes through the birth canal. I personally think there is no perfect way to ever answer that question so I'm fine with a first trimester compromise.

Since we're in a thread about abortions, lets apply personal responsibility to the subject matter. Women abort children as a method of birth control far more than they do because they got raped. Why isn't personal responsibility applied to the men and women who have unprotected sex and conceive a child that they either don't want or don't have the means of caring for?

You don't trip and fall down and get pregnant. Getting pregnant takes a pretty deliberate act. Personal responsibility would be not risking getting pregnant for a night of pleasure. There are plenty of ways to still get the same or similar pleasure without risking a pregnancy but a lot of people throw that out the window for a night of fun. That's the personal responsibility I'm talking about. Take ownership of your actions.
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The same people that want to stop abortion also have been pushing to prevent birth control or at least severely restrict it. Once again it is one group pushing ideology on another group. If you and the person you are with are fine having kids that's great, you don't get to then decide to since you made a decision everyone else has to follow the same decision and live by the same ideas.

I have no problem with people deciding to have kids, but restricting access to a viable option that people make for a variety of reasons such as health, economics, they were rape ect, because one group has decide that their morality is better than everyone else is bunk shit.

Again it's not just limiting abortion this group also wants to limit aid available for those in poverty creating another hurdle that has to be jumped to ensure that this new child is cared for. Some of the requirements, restrictions, and paperwork are ridiculous it also adds a burden to the state. So if it's a matter of "personal responsibility" we should allow for a person to make their own choices. Not base what choices a person can make based on one groups unproven morallity.
 
Scerpi said:
Good... What a dumb law to be on the books.
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Yes much better to let the 12,000-13,000 abortions anually in arizona happen.... The law was better not perfect. Add an exception for rape and the old law is perfect. But the laws in place now allow for a sickening amount of baby killing.
 
LMP said:
The same people that want to stop abortion also have been pushing to prevent birth control or at least severely restrict it. Once again it is one group pushing ideology on another group. If you and the person you are with are fine having kids that's great, you don't get to then decide to since you made a decision everyone else has to follow the same decision and live by the same ideas.

I have no problem with people deciding to have kids, but restricting access to a viable option that people make for a variety of reasons such as health, economics, they were rape ect, because one group has decide that their morality is better than everyone else is bunk shit.

Again it's not just limiting abortion this group also wants to limit aid available for those in poverty creating another hurdle that has to be jumped to ensure that this new child is cared for. Some of the requirements, restrictions, and paperwork are ridiculous it also adds a burden to the state. So if it's a matter of "personal responsibility" we should allow for a person to make their own choices. Not base what choices a person can make based on one groups unproven morallity.
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A small fraction of one group is attempting to push their ideology on another group but that other group is also not being honest with their "you're attempting to control women's bodies" argument by pretending as if there isn't a human being living inside of her body. If both sides would stop being crazy and just be honest and compromise, we would all be better off. People always point to Europe but they actually have more stringent abortion laws than the majority of the US. Like I said, I don't agree with restricting birth control and early abortion.

See you aren't quite being honest with your argument either. Personal responsibility only seems to apply to people's ability to go get an abortion but you don't seem to apply it to not getting pregnant in the first place. Also personal responsibility is responsibly caring for your own child. One side tends to argue that people have no personal responsibility to make any sensible choices unless that sensible choice is an abortion. What about all the irresponsible acts they were committing that led to the decision to get an abortion? If you're going to call out one side for their opinions on abortion, you should certainly also be calling out the people who are making irresponsible life decisions for a night of pleasure.
 
RoastBeast said:
A small fraction of one group is attempting to push their ideology on another group but that other group is also not being honest with their "you're attempting to control women's bodies" argument by pretending as if there isn't a human being living inside of her body. If both sides would stop being crazy and just be honest and compromise, we would all be better off. People always point to Europe but they actually have more stringent abortion laws than the majority of the US. Like I said, I don't agree with restricting birth control and early abortion.

See you aren't quite being honest with your argument either. Personal responsibility only seems to apply to people's ability to go get an abortion but you don't seem to apply it to not getting pregnant in the first place. Also personal responsibility is responsibly caring for your own child. One side tends to argue that people have no personal responsibility to make any sensible choices unless that sensible choice is an abortion. What about all the irresponsible acts they were committing that led to the decision to get an abortion? If you're going to call out one side for their opinions on abortion, you should certainly also be calling out the people who are making irresponsible life decisions for a night of pleasure.
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What's the compromise? 15 weeks? Less than 6% of abortions happen after week 15, almost exclusively for health reasons. Allowing after week 15 has no impact especially when considering that those for health reasons should already be allowed regardless. This is why those pushing for abortion bans are already against this. A 15 week ban has almost no impact. People that use birth control can/have/will still end up pregnant. Are those people not practicing "personal responsibility"? Allow people to make that choice on their own.

If you want to get into the philosophical ideas about when a fetus becomes it's own person we can, but I don't see how it changes any of the "personal responsibility" argument you are failing to make.
 
Seano said:
Imagine if we devoted the same energy to homelessness or poverty as we do the right to abort babies.
This country has lost its way.
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Abortions prevent homelessness wtf dude use your brain. Think about it, you force people to have an unwanted child who are also most likely broke. Not only will they grow up broke too but may turn to crime. Pretty sure abortion has led to a safer society as fucked as that is saying. I don’t want more unloved children entering the world. Ideally they wouldn’t be messing around but it is what it is
 
RoastBeast said:
I 100% agree when it comes to rape but that's really a very small part of a person's personal responsibility.



I guess the base ideology is when a person decides that the babies life has value when it's inside of the mother's stomach. Some people think it's at conception and other people think it has zero value until it passes through the birth canal. I personally think there is no perfect way to ever answer that question so I'm fine with a first trimester compromise.

Since we're in a thread about abortions, lets apply personal responsibility to the subject matter. Women abort children as a method of birth control far more than they do because they got raped. Why isn't personal responsibility applied to the men and women who have unprotected sex and conceive a child that they either don't want or don't have the means of caring for?

You don't trip and fall down and get pregnant. Getting pregnant takes a pretty deliberate act. Personal responsibility would be not risking getting pregnant for a night of pleasure. There are plenty of ways to still get the same or similar pleasure without risking a pregnancy but a lot of people throw that out the window for a night of fun. That's the personal responsibility I'm talking about. Take ownership of your actions.
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Getting an abortion IS taking ownership over your actions. Just because religious nutjobs think its killing a baby, doesn't mean it actually is.
 
Zazen said:
Abortions prevent homelessness wtf dude use your brain. Think about it, you force people to have an unwanted child who are also most likely broke. Not only will they grow up broke too but may turn to crime. Pretty sure abortion has led to a safer society as fucked as that is saying. I don’t want more unloved children entering the world. Ideally they wouldn’t be messing around but it is what it is
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50% of homeless people were in foster care at one point in their life.
 
Zazen said:
Abortions prevent homelessness wtf dude use your brain. Think about it, you force people to have an unwanted child who are also most likely broke. Not only will they grow up broke too but may turn to crime. Pretty sure abortion has led to a safer society as fucked as that is saying. I don’t want more unloved children entering the world. Ideally they wouldn’t be messing around but it is what it is
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"Abortion prevents homelessness, use your brain"....

Jesus fucking Christ.
 
LMP said:
"Personal responsibility"
"Pull yourself up by your boot straps"

Anything other lines you want to throw out to justify shitty things Republicans do?
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Let's do the left:

Every behavior should be tolerated!

No consequences for living your life like a trash bucket!

Murdering babies is a human right!

We dindu nothin!
 
LMP said:
Personal responsibility by removing the ability for the individual to make their own choices. What's the base ideology being used to say that abortion should not be allowed? It a religious one. Forcing people to have kids they don't want using a religion they don't follow.

More over using "personal responsibility" to justify holding wages down and removing social program, so that those that benefit most from the system can justify hording more of the wealth. Don't forget that those same individuals that benefit most from the system are the same ones that have their hand out taking from the system. Instead of insuring that the reward for productivity was kept high so all can be prosperous, they have used the system to maintain and ever growing disproportionate wealth gap.
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Condoms cost what? 1.00 a piece?
 
LMP said:
What's the compromise? 15 weeks? Less than 6% of abortions happen after week 15, almost exclusively for health reasons. Allowing after week 15 has no impact especially when considering that those for health reasons should already be allowed regardless. This is why those pushing for abortion bans are already against this. A 15 week ban has almost no impact. People that use birth control can/have/will still end up pregnant. Are those people not practicing "personal responsibility"? Allow people to make that choice on their own.

If you want to get into the philosophical ideas about when a fetus becomes it's own person we can, but I don't see how it changes any of the "personal responsibility" argument you are failing to make.
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I don't even understand the point you're making. So there should be no restrictions on abortions?

Again, you completely ignored the personality responsibility part of not getting pregnant. Why can't you even admit that much?

dirtypablo said:
Getting an abortion IS taking ownership over your actions. Just because religious nutjobs think its killing a baby, doesn't mean it actually is.
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Not getting pregnant is also ownership over your actions. Why is it impossible for you guys to admit that not getting pregnant in the first place is more responsible than getting pregnant and getting an abortion?

Don't even bring up rape because we arent talking about rape here. We're talking about consensual sex that leads to a pregnancy and abortion. It's like pulling teeth to get liberals to admit that people actually need to be responsible for their own actions BEFORE the abortion takes place.
 
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