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Do you think Palestinians bear any responsibility in prolonging and/or exacerbating this conflict? Is it purely Israeli machinations keeping things going for over 80 years?
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- Thread starter White Whale
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Huh?
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com
It's common knowledge.
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Huh?
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
It's common knowledge.
Do you honestly believe that without Israeli support that any faction within Palestinian society would be less radical or less violent or more willing to negotiate?
It's not common knowledge, it's a common conspiracy that's paraded as truth stripped of all historical context.
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Yes it is. You are a fanatic.
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No it's not. You're a conspiracy driven imbecile that has never had an original thought and if anything in the world would be able to prove me right, it's your disagreement.
Your comments seem to imply a lack of familiarity with well documented events.
I've never argued they were created by Israel. What all the evidence we have points to Israel offering tacit and direct support at times during Hamas' rise, in order to weaken factions like the PLO. This has been followed in recent years by pursuing a strategy of ensuring that Palestinians are divided between Hamas and the PNA in order to make Palestinian cohesion and negotiating less effective.
Yes, moderate is relative, and positions have shifted some since then as well. I don't think targeting civilians is an effective national liberation tactic, just as I do not think Israel's heavy-handed occupation did the situation or itself any favors in the run up to either Intifada.
Israel has to exist, any other possibility sailed almost a century ago. If we're talking what Israel could or should have done in the 80s and 90s, like I said: military occupations of populations that want national sovereignty is almost always destined for failure. And Israel didn't look to Hamas as an alternative to the PLO for negotiations, they were simply dragging their feet and running down the clock. That is a very important distinction.
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Do you think it was wrong for Israel to try and weaken the PLO and their strength during waves of terror being orchestrated by the PLO?
The moderate position prior the creation of Hamas was and still is international and domestic terror. Whether you agree with their methods is irrelevant when those are their methods. They were their tactics prior to Oct 7th and will remain their tactics going forward.
Israel looked for peace in the 80s and 90s and early 00s and after the second intifada they vehemently warned the world against holding elections in the region and knew what the outcome would be. Turns out they were 100% right and have been doing their best to play the bad hand of cards the world forced them to draw.
My comments make me sound like I don't know about historical events? That's pretty cute since this entire fanfiction story only makes sense if you deliberately ignore all the historical events that took place prior to Netanyahu's comments.
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In a vacuum, no. In a real world perspective, the strategy clearly didn't pay off. Populations can really only support whoever is in front of them, and since Israel did its best to make sure Hamas was the dominant player in Gaza, well then Palestinians are going to support Hamas more than they would have if there were other viable options.
Sure. But, groups can moderate over time if given the incentives and prodding. There are no guarantees and it takes a really long time, but as I've mentioned previously, the ANA was able to moderate and become a viable government, as did many Irish nationalist groups who were unrepentant terrorists during the Troubles.
Looking for peace on your terms and not on terms likely to lead to a sustainable compromise isn't looking for peace. You can't tell me Israel was looking for peace in the two decades it was also occupying Gaza under martial law with no respect for Palestinian civil liberties.
Your argument ignores decades of history before the Second Intifada. Populations rarely wake up one day and decide they want to support bombings of civilians, whether directly or indirectly. Both intifadas happen within the context of decades of brutal occupation. That those bombings were wrong and unproductive doesn't change how we arrived at that juncture.
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How many more decades of terror attacks should be tolerated by Israel and the international community while we wait for Palestinians to moderate?
This conflict has already gone on longer than those examples combined.
Well it took decades of fuckery from many parties to get to the current status quo, so I wouldn't expect it to take much shorter than that. The lack of good faith negotiating from the US has been a telling difference here versus the Troubles.
I'm not sure why you are surprised that a brutal occupation of Palestine that lasted decades has led to effectively a permanent low grade insurgency and terrorism.
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???
Where did I say I was surprised by it. I'm stating that it exists and no amount of hopes and prayers from entitled westerners is going to change that.
Pro-Palestinian people in the west have this bizarre idea that the majority of Palestinians don't want war with Israel.
We're dealing with the equivalent of the Hitler Youth if they were raised by two generations of Hitler Youth.
Just saying bombing is wrong and I don't agree with it is so fucking entitled and silly, lmao.
Which, as I've said previously, is what "entitled Westerners" said about Ireland and the Troubles. Yet here we are. I'll ask you the same question that everyone keeps ducking: If Israel is somehow supposed to subdue Palestine through brute force and military's occupation, what historical examples do we have since 1900 that show us that's a viable strategy?
If you don't want an adversary and hostile population that is far too easily enamored with terrorism and violent uprisings, you have to give them alternative options. Israel has not only not done this, it's actively tried to limit alternative options. This is basic counter-insurgency 101. Hamas doesn't even need to try hard to recruit because there is already a massive amount of Palestinian youth who have had innocent family members killed by Israel. That's the part you keep ignoring.
What was an appropriate war goal and what would the result have been for the people of Gaza?
These guys are so either willfully ignorant or intentionally misrepresenting things. For some reason…..
Israel helped Hamas form in the 70s and early 80s. Then became mortal enemies. For 2 decades before hamas was elected against the wishes of Israel who almost invaded gaza as a result back in 2006. It was only after the reality of hamas ruling gaza sunk in that Israel had to deal with that reality. They couldn’t unseat hamas so they had to find the best means of coexisting.
But these guys will try to continually pretend hamas is there because of israel. Some I get are legitimately fooled by the sites they use for anti israel propaganda but some are intentionally malicious.
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- A small part of me even believes that Bibi somehow helped the Hamas attack.Huh?
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
It's common knowledge.
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- Biden always has been a well know war hawk. Dont know how people expected something diferent.
But to be fair, i dont think BIden partners knew that Bibi would test the slash
A more limited "mowing the lawn" campaign would have not necessarily gotten them more, but it would have reduced the risks and PR/diplomatic setbacks. There still would have been heavy casualties for Gazans, just of a lesser magnitude.
Put it this way: We're six months later and Israel invading and controlling Gaza has not really gotten its hostages back of reduced Hamas' popular appeal. And for Israel's part, preventing a repeat of 10/7 would have been very easy militarily given how much of the scale of the attacks were a direct result of intelligence and operational failures (I'm working off the assumption that terrorist groups are going to terrorist here.)
A part that really gets ignored here in America for some reason is literally every president and administration that has worked with Bibi (aside form Trump) hated him and found him to be an untrustworthy partner.
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Biden doesn't want to arm Israel doesn't bother me or likely many people here. Biden want to take in a bunch of Palestinian refugees is whole other thing man.
We’re thinking a brief campaign, keeping Hamas capabilities mostly in tact, keeping the tunnels and infrastructure intact and just more stringent blockades and more control over what comes in and out would have been better for both sides?
