Social Can homeless people be fined for sleeping outside? A rural Oregon city asks the US Supreme Court

panamaican said:
I still think it's less than $20k. So, $50 million on a well run program. Considering that we're sending magical billions to Ukraine every couple of months, I'd consider $50 million annually quite reasonable.
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That’s $50 for just 2500 people in Austin, Texas
 
Sinister said:
No, I'm arguing that it takes longer than people who think homelessness is a choice or a moral failure think it does for a truly bad off person to get clean, if that's even the problem. Not all homeless people who need costly care are drug addicts, there are a significant portion who are also physically disabled, or who even ended up homeless due to medical issues.



Now keep in mind that guy said disability denied him 3 times after having his stroke. I've mentioned my Aunt before who had ALS. Thankfully she lived with my Mother, but before that she had an apartment, now imagine my Mother didnt live in the same City. My Aunt was also denied both disability and early SS when she was nearly immobile, and the Hospitsls kept sending her home because she had no more money. One of those Hospitals was one she worked at.

She would have literally possibly died in the streets. She has another Brother, who himself is disabled due to stroke.
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I understand. I’m not unsympathetic.

What is the medium you suggest between a blanket indefinite welfare and housing program and a program that works to get people back on their feet?

What is your criteria for distinguishing who gets what and for how long?

Would anyone ever be cut off?
 
Sinister said:
Please provide any evidence that that guy was either mentally ill or currently drug addicted. Please provide any evidence that I have not accounted for the fact that many homeless ARE mentally ill, or are drug addicted. Judging by your reply, you took one look at that video and seemed that particular guy either mentally ill or a drug addict and now you're attempting to chastise me for not viewing the World as cynically as you do. Despite the fact that I never stated he wasnt either. All I said was he is employed and is still having problems finding housing, nothing more.

And if you took a few minutes of your life to listen to the guy, he and the person taking the video discuss the issue of mental illness. But then again the channel is called "Invisible People"...you just made it clear how appropriate that is.

Do you honestly think renting a place for a group of homeless people is just that simple? Lol People with Government housing vouchers got evicted once the covid moratoriums ended because its NOT illegal for landlords to reject housing vouchers. Many apartments in cities are gatekeep by the need to go through brokers, they want documentation these people might not have readily available, landlords in many cities are choosing not to rent when their property is deemed eligible for rent control (which they advocate against), and many properties dont allow multiple roommates because NIMBY's make a stink about it being a halfway house. There's lots of red tape that gets in the way.
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I was talking about homeless people in general, not that exact guy.

You're always on about some sort of oppression that is holding people back. It's why I can't take you seriously. NIMBY this. Rent control that. Covid moratoriums. Just stop making excuses. If you have a job and are having difficulty finding your own apartment, then you've gotta eat a shit sandwich and either rent a room out somewhere or get with another person in your situation and room with each other in an apartment or trailer. There's plenty of options out there that require a little bit of work to figure out but you're about tearing down the system instead of just putting in a tiny bit of effort to figure out an easy solution that benefits everyone.

Poor people stay poor because they have your mindset. They're always the victim, nothing is ever their fault. Someone is always holding them back. In reality, they usually are the problem and the only person holding them back is their own self.
 
Limbo Pete said:
Additionally, trying to work out these numbers is complicated by the variance in resources people already do have. Being homeless doesn't mean you have nothing, or are incapable of getting any kind of income or support. There's a big difference in resource need and cost between a family of 4 living in a van vs a largely inchoate fentanyl addict passed out in the gutter. I'm not trying to disrupt the conversation, it's just very complicated stuff. That's part of why imo this particular SC case reeks so badly to me.
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Personally, I hope the city loses. Criminalizing people or fining them so that you can eventually imprison them simply because they don't have homes is insane to me. It's just an abuse of human rights that I can't understand how anyone could support it and still adhere to the concept of individual freedoms.

It's particularly abusive because fining the homeless is the most obvious example of a law designed to achieve a harm of people, not solve a problem.
 
Rob Battisti said:
That’s $50 for just 2500 people in Austin, Texas
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They have a $5.5 Billion budget. That's less than 1% of their annual budget. Considering the savings from other homeless related government interventions, it's probably a pretty good municipal investment.
 
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panamaican said:
They have a $5.5 Billion budget. That's less than 1% of their annual budget. Considering the savings from other homeless related government interventions, it's probably a pretty good municipal investment.
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That’s the thing though, we spend 70+ million YEARLY without this cost already.

It’s not the money, it’s the incompetence.
 
RoastBeast said:
I was talking about homeless people in general, not that exact guy.

You're always on about some sort of oppression that is holding people back. It's why I can't take you seriously. NIMBY this. Rent control that. Covid moratoriums. Just stop making excuses. If you have a job and are having difficulty finding your own apartment, then you've gotta eat a shit sandwich and either rent a room out somewhere or get with another person in your situation and room with each other in an apartment or trailer. There's plenty of options out there that require a little bit of work to figure out but you're about tearing down the system instead of just putting in a tiny bit of effort to figure out an easy solution that benefits everyone.

Poor people stay poor because they have your mindset. They're always the victim, nothing is ever their fault. Someone is always holding them back. In reality, they usually are the problem and the only person holding them back is their own self.
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You literally quoted the tag line of that video, and are trying to attribute some stupid kind of syndrome you came up with in your head about me.

Everything I stated are factual things people have to deal with when renting homes and apartments. All you are demonstrating is how painfully sheltered you must have been all your life if you think they're just "excuses."

Your hustle-culture, "it's all mindset Bro" might be cute for Instagram influencers, but they dont do d*ck for any of these people getting hassled by police all day because they have nowhere else to go.

And just because you have pretty much zero empathy doesnt mean there's something wrong with me. I'd rather improve the system, you can keep preaching "mindset."
 
Rob Battisti said:
I understand. I’m not unsympathetic.

What is the medium you suggest between a blanket indefinite welfare and housing program and a program that works to get people back on their feet?

What is your criteria for distinguishing who gets what and for how long?

Would anyone ever be cut off?
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Something like Hari explained to Rogan about how Switzerland and Portugal handled their drug problem:



Interesting footnote:

Right wing Governance in Portugal specifically has worked to privatize portions of these programs. Know what the result has been? Their numbers have started to get worse again.

Also, they address the issue of "why wouldn't they just do it forever?"
 
panamaican said:
Personally, I hope the city loses. Criminalizing people or fining them so that you can eventually imprison them simply because they don't have homes is insane to me. It's just an abuse of human rights that I can't understand how anyone could support it and still adhere to the concept of individual freedoms.

It's particularly abusive because fining the homeless is the most obvious example of a law designed to achieve a harm of people, not solve a problem.
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Exactly
The only way this succeeds imo, and it absolutely will, is because of the current makeup of the court coupled with public sentiment taking value from punishing people on the bottom rung
 
Sinister said:
You literally quoted the tag line of that video, and are trying to attribute some stupid kind of syndrome you came up with in your head about me.

Everything I stated are factual things people have to deal with when renting homes and apartments. All you are demonstrating is how painfully sheltered you must have been all your life if you think they're just "excuses."

Your hustle-culture, "it's all mindset Bro" might be cute for Instagram influencers, but they dont do d*ck for any of these people getting hassled by police all day because they have nowhere else to go.

And just because you have pretty much zero empathy doesnt mean there's something wrong with me. I'd rather improve the system, you can keep preaching "mindset."
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I don't know what hustle culture is. All I did was get a 2 year degree at a community college and apply until I got the job I wanted. Pretty basic stuff that anyone in the country can do.

I just gave multiple paths for an employed person to get housing and you ignored all of them. Which isn't surprising because your mindset is something I'm very familiar with. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me about jobs and I've given them the info and put in a good word for them, only for them to never make the call and continue to stay at their shitty job and complain about how shitty their life is. Always the victim and can't even heed the advice that is right there.

I'm not preaching mindset. I'm preaching common sense. It's all I ever preach. I'm not telling you that a homeless guy needs to apply at NASA and the only reason why he isn't getting hired is because he has the wrong mindset. I'm saying if he's working full time and can't afford a place, he can room with another person in the same situation and have a roof over his head. If that's some crazy mindset bullshit to you, then I don't know what to tell you man. It's just being a responsible adult.
 
RoastBeast said:
I don't know what hustle culture is. All I did was get a 2 year degree at a community college and apply until I got the job I wanted. Pretty basic stuff that anyone in the country can do.

I just gave multiple paths for an employed person to get housing and you ignored all of them. Which isn't surprising because your mindset is something I'm very familiar with. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me about jobs and I've given them the info and put in a good word for them, only for them to never make the call and continue to stay at their shitty job and complain about how shitty their life is. Always the victim and can't even heed the advice that is right there.

I'm not preaching mindset. I'm preaching common sense. It's all I ever preach. I'm not telling you that a homeless guy needs to apply at NASA and the only reason why he isn't getting hired is because he has the wrong mindset. I'm saying if he's working full time and can't afford a place, he can room with another person in the same situation and have a roof over his head. If that's some crazy mindset bullshit to you, then I don't know what to tell you man. It's just being a responsible adult.
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I wonder where you were living while you got that degree. I wonder if infrastructure of having a place to bathe, eat, clean your clothing, and store your belongings was a thing you had to constantly worry about or not.

I didn't ignore anything, I said they're not always as simple as you're making out. You're behaving as if jobs will just readily accept applicants who cannot list an address, or apartments will readily accept a person who doesnt have either an employment History, or references. Some recently homeless have recent evictions on their records, and you're ignorant enough to think that doesnt limit their options. It does. Many rental properties wont rent to people who were recently evicted. I dont care about people who haven't shown up for jobs they've asked you for, that has no bearing.

Yeah, you're preaching mindset. It's just not as easy as you're suggesting for every person in these situations. There are systemic and personal discriminations and I'd rather advocate for changing those then giving me a means to shrug my shoulders while more and more people are sleeping on my City streets
 
Limbo Pete said:
Exactly
The only way this succeeds imo, and it absolutely will, is because of the current makeup of the court coupled with public sentiment taking value from punishing people on the bottom rung
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It's also a disingenuous punishment. Financial penalties for the homeless means a penalty that we know they can't meet. Thus opening them up for more severe punishment as a result of not meeting the first punishment.

It's like penalizing people with no legs by demanding that they walk 2 miles. They can't perform the punishment and that's why it's the punishment. It serves no purpose except as a justification to say "Well, they didn't walk the 2 miles so now we can confiscate their house." When confiscating the house was always the desire, they just lacked the integrity to stop themselves from this roundabout injustice.

The desire is to punish the homeless for being homeless but they can't bring themselves to say that.
 
panamaican said:
It's also a disingenuous punishment. Financial penalties for the homeless means a penalty that we know they can't meet. Thus opening them up for more severe punishment as a result of not meeting the first punishment.

It's like penalizing people with no legs by demanding that they walk 2 miles. They can't perform the punishment and that's why it's the punishment. It serves no purpose except as a justification to say "Well, they didn't walk the 2 miles so now we can confiscate their house." When confiscating the house was always the desire, they just lacked the integrity to stop themselves from this roundabout injustice.

The desire is to punish the homeless for being homeless but they can't bring themselves to say that.
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The desire is to punish people for committing crimes which make our communities less safe, less sanitary, and less fostering of prosperity. The alternative is to encourage people remain a public nuisance and live short miserable lives on the street.

Nobody is attacking homeless people that are good neighbors and not committing crimes or making the spaces they occupy worse for everybody else. People should not be allowed to defile our public spaces with their bad behavior, they need to accept help or jail. No other options are healthy for the community or the homeless.
 
djacobox372 said:
The desire is to punish people for committing crimes which make our communities less safe, less sanitary, and less fostering of prosperity. The alternative is to encourage people remain a public nuisance and live short miserable lives on the street.

Nobody is attacking homeless people that are good neighbors and not committing crimes or making the spaces they occupy worse for everybody else. People should not be allowed to defile our public spaces with their bad behavior, they need to accept help or jail. No other options are healthy for the community or the homeless.
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Sleeping outside isn't committing a crime. If the concern is theft, trespass, harassment, it's dumb because those are already crimes and the homeless can be prosecuted under those.

Not having a job isn't a crime -- when people with money do it, we call them the idle rich. Sleeping outside isn't a crime -- when people with means do it, we call it camping or, at worst, living off the grid.

I guess you're going to have to tell what the specific crime is for homeless people that isn't already a crime for people with homes and jobs.
 
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