Definition if mcdojo

[JohnPJones]

Long story short someone on r/karate is claiming sherdog has defined a mcdojo as any school or gym with predatory financial practices even if they produce people who can actually fight.

I maintain that a mcdojo is simply a synonym for blackbelt factory/mill that teaches bullshido being the core tenent of a mcdojo.

 

[Dan Torrance]

what are predatory financial practices?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Long story short someone on r/karate is claiming sherdog has defined a mcdojo as any school or gym with predatory financial practices even if they produce people who can actually fight.

I maintain that a mcdojo is simply a synonym for blackbelt factory/mill that teaches bullshido being the core tenent of a mcdojo.

I'm happy with either definition, I'd have used your one

 

[Matsukaze]

if your 8 year old is a black belt... it's probably a McDojo

 

[biscuitsbrah]

what are predatory financial practices?

Yeah what are examples of predatory financial practices?

Mcdojo means fast food shitty training.
Mcdonalds isn’t known for being expensive so that definition makes 0 sense.
Plus if you can fight than the money is worth it

 

[Stuart0502]

I searched online a couple of years ago looking at what most people understand by these two terms.

My conclusion at that stage was that most people define a Mcdojo as somewhere that offers easy promotions and very soft training.

Bullshido is reserved for supernatural/occult/touch of death stuff.

 

[j123]

Socially in the community what ppl see mcdojo-ism is, is gyms that are teaching ppl "impractical" techniques, personaly i dont have too much of an issue with mcdojos/bullshido/whatever, we live in the internet age, and if you get scammed despite all the available info, and precautions, thats on you

 

[Dexter]

Socially in the community what ppl see mcdojo-ism is, is gyms that are teaching ppl "impractical" techniques, personaly i dont have too much of an issue with mcdojos/bullshido/whatever, we live in the internet age, and if you get scammed despite all the available info, and precautions, thats on you

Yep, exactly. A lot of ppl just want some stress-release in the form of "martial arts" plus getting rainbow-coloured belts regulary, without being hurt. Why should we deny them?

 

[SandisLL]

predatory financial practices:
1. long term contracts with fees considerably larger than they are for this style and THIS country& city.
2. mandatory seminars for price considerably larger than these prices are for this style and country/ level
3. mandatory purchase of different items considerably more expensive than common price for this country and style.
For example if colored belt usually costs in this country in retail shop (!) 7-25 EUR and they ask you to pay 85 or more.

The ranking exams fees usually are single payments but some clubs charge a) exam fee, b ) then appears cert paper should be paid for separately cos this too costs money c) this should be registered and this too costs additional payment d) appears that belt they will gave ( as physical item ) but for their price, that is additional. Pe se this means that they does not sell nor level and not also ranking, they sell items ( belts, gi ) for expensive for this country retail sales pricing level prices.
Maybe even 3X or more expensive than in retail shop in this city.


Tution fees ofc depends from multiple factors and variables.
With a bit strange approach might happen that contract does have fixed monthly payment and optional not mandatory private lessons for separate price.
Then later might appear that they does have club member list and this is not mandatory.
Club members does have some discounts and this is like club in the club.
To enroll there might be enrollment fee, then might appear also registration fee and yearly fee.

 

[SandisLL]

TMA clubs are different and we can't put these in single basket.
Some clubs and orgs are strict about grading criteria and even age.
For example, club's co owner's and instructor's in one person son is training in club 7 years and he really is very good but he is15 y.o and is brown belt because grading age limit for this style and org/ federation.
Might be clubs with very good competitive black belts and they doesn't have nidan just because there is grading timeframe between each rank. I had seen guys like this: he is competitive at continental level tournaments but he is only shodan because he is only 19 and get his shodan just 1 year ago.

Again, not all TMA clubs are predators or " selling belts ".

 

[j123]

Yep, exactly. A lot of ppl just want some stress-release in the form of "martial arts" plus getting rainbow-coloured belts regulary, without being hurt. Why should we deny them?

At the end of the day we all do this for fun, let's not kid ourselves. If someone after a stressful day and family has relief over the cultural aspect and comraidere at a mcdojo so be it. Anyone repeatedly talking about "honor", "Real fighting", "martial artist code", etc are just selling you snake oil to keep you paying up your tuition costs and fees in

 

[Bamboozled]

At the end of the day we all do this for fun, let's not kid ourselves. If someone after a stressful day and family has relief over the cultural aspect and comraidere at a mcdojo so be it. Anyone repeatedly talking about "honor", "Real fighting", "martial artist code", etc are just selling you snake oil to keep you paying up your tuition costs and fees in

BJJ snake oil confifrmed

 

[shinkyoku]

I searched online a couple of years ago looking at what most people understand by these two terms.

My conclusion at that stage was that most people define a Mcdojo as somewhere that offers easy promotions and very soft training.

McDojo is basically when you do not get training remotely worth the money you put in. The grades you get (basically for attending and paying your fees) are not worth anything. No skill is required as no skill is taught.
Usually the training is easy, and fighting (if any) is unrealistic. Money making schemes are not really a necessity to make it a McDojo, but it certainly helps.

Bullshido is reserved for supernatural/occult/touch of death stuff.

Also cultish, fake history (taught to our master Bubba Smith by secret monks in a hidden mountaintop temple when he was stationed in korea for one year) type stuff

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I searched online a couple of years ago looking at what most people understand by these two terms.

My conclusion at that stage was that most people define a Mcdojo as somewhere that offers easy promotions and very soft training.

Bullshido is reserved for supernatural/occult/touch of death stuff.

This

 

[4daLuLZ]

if your 8 year old is a black belt... it's probably a McDojo

I prefer to send my kid to a BK Dojo.
I’d send him to a Wendy's but they laughed at us in the drive through when we asked for a Kid's Meal with a Belt Combo.

 

[Hotora86]

if your 8 year old is a black belt... it's probably a McDojo

I'd like to elaborate on this. Black belt status in Karate is not about fighting ability - it's about knowledge, curriculum and polished technique. An 8 year old isn't realistic (since it generally takes 5-6 years to go through all the belt tests even if you ace each one) but a 12 year old who has been training five times a week for the last 6 years, has flawless technique and aced 100% of the curriculum (kihon, kata, kumite) is eligible for black belt. In some schools he may also be required to win a few tournaments or competitions.

Again, this doesn't mean that he can beat adults - it means he has more knowledge and skill than lower ranked adults and could generally teach them what they don't yet know. This shouldn't be the norm of course but for example Lyoto Machida who was almost literally raised in a dojo got his black belt at age 13 - and I'm 100% sure he deserved it.

 

[Matsukaze]

I'd like to elaborate on this. Black belt status in Karate is not about fighting ability - it's about knowledge, curriculum and polished technique. An 8 year old isn't realistic (since it generally takes 5-6 years to go through all the belt tests even if you ace each one) but a 12 year old who has been training five times a week for the last 6 years, has flawless technique and aced 100% of the curriculum (kihon, kata, kumite) is eligible for black belt. In some schools he may also be required to win a few tournaments or competitions.

Again, this doesn't mean that he can beat adults - it means he has more knowledge and skill than lower ranked adults and could generally teach them what they don't yet know. This shouldn't be the norm of course but for example Lyoto Machida who was almost literally raised in a dojo got his black belt at age 13 - and I'm 100% sure he deserved it.

I agree with your post.. I was more having fun than anything.. I think I remember reading that in Japan / Okinawa that the black belt itself doesn't carry as much meaning as it does here in the west. That's why we see so many kids with black belts over there. In their language/culture sho dan is looked as more of a rung ( step ) of a ladder. So sho dan would basically mean just the first step ( level ) of the many steps to the ladder. I remember when I first started training in Okinawan Kenpo, a million years ago, there was a young Asian kid who was brown belt that was incredible. Great form, speed and power...it was all there. so I can understand a gifted kid like him being a black belt at a very young age

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I'd like to elaborate on this. Black belt status in Karate is not about fighting ability - it's about knowledge, curriculum and polished technique. An 8 year old isn't realistic (since it generally takes 5-6 years to go through all the belt tests even if you ace each one) but a 12 year old who has been training five times a week for the last 6 years, has flawless technique and aced 100% of the curriculum (kihon, kata, kumite) is eligible for black belt. In some schools he may also be required to win a few tournaments or competitions.

Again, this doesn't mean that he can beat adults - it means he has more knowledge and skill than lower ranked adults and could generally teach them what they don't yet know. This shouldn't be the norm of course but for example Lyoto Machida who was almost literally raised in a dojo got his black belt at age 13 - and I'm 100% sure he deserved it.

For sure, it's easy to judge on the outside without knowing what actually goes on in the gym, if Machida wasn't a black belt at age 13, then I'd wonder wtf was going on that in 10 years of practising karate religiously he hadn't attained it

 

[JohnPJones]

I'd like to elaborate on this. Black belt status in Karate is not about fighting ability - it's about knowledge, curriculum and polished technique. An 8 year old isn't realistic (since it generally takes 5-6 years to go through all the belt tests even if you ace each one) but a 12 year old who has been training five times a week for the last 6 years, has flawless technique and aced 100% of the curriculum (kihon, kata, kumite) is eligible for black belt. In some schools he may also be required to win a few tournaments or competitions.

Again, this doesn't mean that he can beat adults - it means he has more knowledge and skill than lower ranked adults and could generally teach them what they don't yet know. This shouldn't be the norm of course but for example Lyoto Machida who was almost literally raised in a dojo got his black belt at age 13 - and I'm 100% sure he deserved it.

As a karateka, I personally think that's a BS excuse that's fairly modern.

A blackbelt should represent a minimum level of practical skill. I don't think that a blackbelt should necessarily mean "total ninja badass who can whoop anyone"

But a soccer mom with a blackbelt should be a reasonable threat against a random dude trying to rape or mug her. (Without a weapon)
And a child with a BB should be able to reliably defend themselves from a bully trying to physically pick on them.

 

[Hotora86]

As a karateka, I personally think that's a BS excuse that's fairly modern.

A blackbelt should represent a minimum level of practical skill. I don't think that a blackbelt should necessarily mean "total ninja badass who can whoop anyone"

But a soccer mom with a blackbelt should be a reasonable threat against a random dude trying to rape or mug her. (Without a weapon)
And a child with a BB should be able to reliably defend themselves from a bully trying to physically pick on them.

I fully agree with that, just pointing out that belt tests can't realistically measure those scenarios... unless sensei disguises himself as "a random dude trying to rape or mug" the student. But I don't think that would be a good idea.

There's kumite being assessed and there are competitions which give some sort of benchmark. And while I've nothing against sending a potential (adult) black belt to an ammy MMA fight for a reality check - I don't see it as necessary for grading.