Eye gouging against a trained grappler is easier said than done. (Share your experiences)

[TheMaster]

Agree with the consensus that a superior grappler will almost always have the advantage re. eye gouging. But that may not be so for groin attacks. Accidental low blows in training pretty much end the roll/round. In grappling in particular, any open guard puts your nuts front and center for a motivated white belt spaz to go to town. One of our BBs recently pulled butterfly guard on an overzealous noob, who obliged by knee slicing up the middle and sent him to the ER.

Even if you've already closed the distance and are attempting a sub, a dick grab from half guard can be a game changer, as this vid from a few years ago illustrates:

https://packaged-media.redd.it/z5g7ag5re2241/pb/m2-res_720p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1702270800&s=f0c3846c0ca838e95718729433e9f5a090abb684#t=0

You know what I made a post saying this exact same thing like 15 years ago based on... common sense and logic and grappling experience with Judo. The thread was widely attacked, insulted and trolled by every ignorant BJJ nuthugger under under sun and the argument even reached the elite of the grappling world



...but guess what, basically I was right and the video you posted is just further confirmation. In fact Drac addresses the very point when he demos the same guillotine shown in the vid. "Ok he can even actually touch there (from full guard) but who do you think is going to win first...".
Well it depends who gets position and how much they go for it and how good is your choke. The risk is way bigger than most realize when you don't play by the grappling game rules. And don't even mention the mount.


Having the plain truth pull the rug from under you and delusions of grappling and real fight supremacy is tough for many. And in a real situation, where a choke from guard can be lethal, you damn sure better do those illegal tactics and turn the tables and make them scream.

As my jits coach used to say- “if I’m beating your ass in the street and you try to bite, fish hook, or eye gouge me then I will simply return the favor.”

All that dirty stuff from an untrained opponent is something to consider when going hands on, but those same moves in the hands of a bjj black belt is down right terrifying.

Nobody actually trains it. That's what I am getting at. The trained fighter with the ability to eye gouge and nut shot will win 99% of the time because both are as skilled at gouges and nutshots. Both people are as competent in that skillset.

Again, yes and no. While no one can doubt the dirty tactics in the hands of a trained fighter are far more effective, the point is they are a major equaliser. If someone even untrained really goes for them and gets them first, you won't necessarily have a chance to rerun the favour the fight will be over.

 

[ChickenBrother]

You know what I made a post saying this exact same thing like 15 years ago based on... common sense and logic and grappling experience with Judo. The thread was widely attacked, insulted and trolled by every ignorant BJJ nuthugger under under sun and the argument even reached the elite of the grappling world



...but guess what, basically I was right and the video you posted is just further confirmation. In fact Drac addresses the very point when he demos the same guillotine shown in the vid. "Ok he can even actually touch there (from full guard) but who do you think is going to win first...".
Well it depends who gets position and how much they go for it and how good is your choke. The risk is way bigger than most realize when you don't play by the grappling game rules. And don't even mention the mount.


Having the plain truth pull the rug from under you and delusions of grappling and real fight supremacy is tough for many. And in a real situation, where a choke from guard can be lethal, you damn sure better do those illegal tactics and turn the tables and make them scream.




Again, yes and no. While no one can doubt the dirty tactics in the hands of a trained fighter are far more effective, the point is they are a major equaliser. If someone even untrained really goes for them and gets them first, you won't necessarily have a chance to rerun the favour the fight will be over.

Damn bro, I vaguely remember that thread but didn't realize your name was whispered among the elites. This might be up there with Frank Trigg and Sherdogger Donny. Respect.

TBF I tend to agree with Draculino wrt to dick grabs from closed guard - an experienced BJJer is going to be hunting a sub and will be staying tight to opponent/hugging them in close to minimize opportunities for GNP. Indeed our BB that got injured was laying back in open guard to let the white belt work, as Draculino demonstrates at 1:17 and why that's ineffective. And the vid I posted shows it can go either way - though I think if the bottom guy was actually good, he should have been able to finish that guillotine before succumbing to dick twist.

But I agree with you that groin attacks are a vulnerability in BJJ, especially for the more recent open guards where there's plenty of space for a groin strike. In training I've both given and taken accidental grazing knees or foot slaps from butterfly, knee shield, DLR and they end the roll despite not even being purposeful attacks. A motivated but untrained knee, foot or slap dropping onto your nuts is going to ruin your guard game.

 

[maximus__]

You know what I made a post saying this exact same thing like 15 years ago based on... common sense and logic and grappling experience with Judo. The thread was widely attacked, insulted and trolled by every ignorant BJJ nuthugger under under sun and the argument even reached the elite of the grappling world



...but guess what, basically I was right and the video you posted is just further confirmation. In fact Drac addresses the very point when he demos the same guillotine shown in the vid. "Ok he can even actually touch there (from full guard) but who do you think is going to win first...".
Well it depends who gets position and how much they go for it and how good is your choke. The risk is way bigger than most realize when you don't play by the grappling game rules. And don't even mention the mount.


Having the plain truth pull the rug from under you and delusions of grappling and real fight supremacy is tough for many. And in a real situation, where a choke from guard can be lethal, you damn sure better do those illegal tactics and turn the tables and make them scream.




Again, yes and no. While no one can doubt the dirty tactics in the hands of a trained fighter are far more effective, the point is they are a major equaliser. If someone even untrained really goes for them and gets them first, you won't necessarily have a chance to rerun the favour the fight will be over.

We have an example of this in MMA as early as 1995 with Yuki Nakai being eye gouged, fighting on in the tournament and winning 2 matches after being repeatedly eye gouged in 1 of them. He was blinded for life. It's not a fight ender and once you do that you open up retaliation from the actual trained fighter. Same goes in Vale tudo matches and traditional Muay thai matches back in the day. Groin strikes can be blocked and they aren't always a fight ender, especially when you can grapple.

Now of course certain positions are vulnerable to eye gouges and groin attacks, but the same goes from those positions the grappler has the person.

In your example with the guard, the grappler can also eye gouge and can do it whilst controlling the persons distance and base for sweeps.

It's a fight, anything can happen, but you can't perfect a skill, you can't practice. The mistaken belief that simply attacking the eyes or groin striking will magically win you a fight, is less practicable than a BJJ guy hitting a berimbolo in a clothed street fight. Atleast one person has actually practiced the skill at some point.

To get this hypothetical situation we have to set rules on the grappler (no fouls) and allow the other person free reign to do whatever, when in reality the grappler will just strike the groin also(works great from supine open guard) and eye gouge to open up submissions and passes.

 

[maximus__]

Agree with the consensus that a superior grappler will almost always have the advantage re. eye gouging. But that may not be so for groin attacks. Accidental low blows in training pretty much end the roll/round. In grappling in particular, any open guard puts your nuts front and center for a motivated white belt spaz to go to town. One of our BBs recently pulled butterfly guard on an overzealous noob, who obliged by knee slicing up the middle and sent him to the ER.

Even if you've already closed the distance and are attempting a sub, a dick grab from half guard can be a game changer, as this vid from a few years ago illustrates:

https://packaged-media.redd.it/z5g7ag5re2241/pb/m2-res_720p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1702270800&s=f0c3846c0ca838e95718729433e9f5a090abb684#t=0

The grappler can also land devastating nut shots from open guard and is actually realitively safe from the same thing. Even stomps aren't as good if you can kick someone to the groin to defend them. It's definitely not where you want to spend your efforts in a fight though.


Again people keep making the assumption it only goes one way. That overzealous white belt also presents the groin during a knee cut pass. Both people have equal access to the groin in that position, it's just that the more experienced person is knowledgable enough to avoid it as opposed to spazzy Mcgee. If both people are going for groin strikes and eye gouges, who is more likely to land between the two?

The end result is this is all theoretical and we have seen it in MMA for years that 9/10 the better trained grappler wins when it comes to attacking on the ground even with fouls included from early MMA.

 

[ChrisBN]

Id say the only way to train eye gouging is to do it in fights or if you play dirty in a sport like football, rugby, bjj etc. It comes naturally in the spur of the moment if the opportunity presents itself.
Im glad its never happend to me tho.

 

[ChrisBN]

Ive had my balls kicked and grabbed in football and in bar fights a few times. Half the time it doesnt connect properly cos they are slightly hidden and covered by clothing. Or maybe my nuts are small. Yeah that could be it

 

[TheMaster]

The grappler can also land devastating nut shots from open guard and is actually realitively safe from the same thing.

Uh, no. The grappler is totally open to groin strikes in open gaurd unless he controls the wrists, and he can't as easily do the same from this position. It's the same reason the mount (essentially the gaurd position but now on top) is likewise very vulnerable to groin attacks.

We have an example of this in MMA as early as 1995 with Yuki Nakai being eye gouged, fighting on in the tournament and winning 2 matches after being repeatedly eye gouged in 1 of them. He was blinded for life. It's not a fight ender and once you do that you open up retaliation from the actual trained fighter.

How many people would be willing to be blinded for life in a fight? I think that's a fight ender for 98% of the population, Nakai has some of that crazy Sumurai mentality it's not normal.

Same goes in Vale tudo matches and traditional Muay thai matches back in the day. Groin strikes can be blocked and they aren't always a fight ender, especially when you can grapple.

A sad moment when the legendary 'Worlds most dangerous man' crumpled from a knee strike to the groin through a protective cup, in his last match.



They are damaging especially without protective gear.

In your example with the guard, the grappler can also eye gouge and can do it whilst controlling the persons distance and base for sweeps.

Well they could both eye gouge from that position but the point is if you do that it's a different game entirely and the positions totally change ie where and what is a safe position. As has been pointed out guard is potentially unsafe in terms of protecting against groin strikes or grabs unless you keep wrist control and use it very transitionallly to get a sub and even here there maybe risk still, but to be fair the aim of high level BJJ is to get a finishing hold and ideally minimise these risks at a high level although with the emphasis on sport BJJ these days I think it's gotten less effective for this aspect.

To get this hypothetical situation we have to set rules on the grappler (no fouls) and allow the other person free reign to do whatever, when in reality the grappler will just strike the groin also(works great from supine open guard) and eye gouge to open up submissions and passes.

Well why not do some training specifically to add hypothetical eye gouging positions and groin attacking positions? When I have done this in the past it gave me a new appreciation of what was safe in grappling if you didnt want to risk exposure to the possibility of this. Its an 'eye opening' experience honestly, pardon the pun.

 

[TheMaster]

Damn bro, I vaguely remember that thread but didn't realize your name was whispered among the elites. This might be up there with Frank Trigg and Sherdogger Donny. Respect.

Lol. Donny triggered Trigg that's right. I think I surpassed him though I triggered much of the BJJ community at that time and the vid you just posted is the fitting epilogue all these years later.

 

[ChickenBrother]

The grappler can also land devastating nut shots from open guard and is actually realitively safe from the same thing. Even stomps aren't as good if you can kick someone to the groin to defend them. It's definitely not where you want to spend your efforts in a fight though.


Again people keep making the assumption it only goes one way. That overzealous white belt also presents the groin during a knee cut pass. Both people have equal access to the groin in that position, it's just that the more experienced person is knowledgable enough to avoid it as opposed to spazzy Mcgee. If both people are going for groin strikes and eye gouges, who is more likely to land between the two?

The end result is this is all theoretical and we have seen it in MMA for years that 9/10 the better trained grappler wins when it comes to attacking on the ground even with fouls included from early MMA.

Maybe you have a petrified mammoth nutsack but mine is highly sensitive to impact. Having had the misfortune of many incidental eye pokes and groin shots over the years, they're not in the same league. Most eye pokes won't shut you down immediately and I agree that a trained grappler has a built in defense - sound grappling entails denying position to apply sustained pressure on your face or neck; and because a potential fight-ending eye gouge (the likes of which blinded Yuki Nakai) required a sustained gouge that still didn't prevent him from finishing his own sub on a much larger, stronger man in Gordeau. Yes if you attempt that on a superior grappler, he's going to return the favor with interest.

Not so with nut shots and I'm not talking a slow dick twist like the knucklehead boot in my vid above. I don't care if you're fucking Benny Blanco from the Bronx. An unexpected, direct slap/foot/knee to unprotected nuts (without a cup) is a one hitter quitter and unless other guy telegraphs it like Happy Gilmore, it's not something modern BJJ seems to contemplate. Just today as I was getting handled by the two BBs who typically do that to me, even from inferior positions like bottom north south, turtling out of a guard pass, defending a HG sweep, I saw multiple openings to inflict ball-busting justice had I been so inclined.

To be clear, I'm not saying nut shots > BJJ. But they're capable of turning the tide and they're not something most grapplers anticipate in training.

 

[teamventure09]

Ive had my balls kicked and grabbed in football and in bar fights a few times. Half the time it doesnt connect properly cos they are slightly hidden and covered by clothing. Or maybe my nuts are small. Yeah that could be it

Dude, props for not caring about what people think about the size of your cojones. Best post ever.

 

[teamventure09]

Uh, no. The grappler is totally open to groin strikes in open gaurd unless he controls the wrists, and he can't as easily do the same from this position. It's the same reason the mount (essentially the gaurd position but now on top) is likewise very vulnerable to groin attacks.


How many people would be willing to be blinded for life in a fight? I think that's a fight ender for 98% of the population, Nakai has some of that crazy Sumurai mentality it's not normal.


A sad moment when the legendary 'Worlds most dangerous man' crumpled from a knee strike to the groin through a protective cup, in his last match.



They are damaging especially without protective gear.


Well they could both eye gouge from that position but the point is if you do that it's a different game entirely and the positions totally change ie where and what is a safe position. As has been pointed out guard is potentially unsafe in terms of protecting against groin strikes or grabs unless you keep wrist control and use it very transitionallly to get a sub and even here there maybe risk still, but to be fair the aim of high level BJJ is to get a finishing hold and ideally minimise these risks at a high level although with the emphasis on sport BJJ these days I think it's gotten less effective for this aspect.



Well why not do some training specifically to add hypothetical eye gouging positions and groin attacking positions? When I have done this in the past it gave me a new appreciation of what was safe in grappling if you didnt want to risk exposure to the possibility of this. Its an 'eye opening' experience honestly, pardon the pun.

You've got my attention.
How bout top side control? How susceptible is someone for eye gouges and groin strikes from side mount and cross side?

 

[teamventure09]

Maybe you have a petrified mammoth nutsack but mine is highly sensitive to impact. Having had the misfortune of many incidental eye pokes and groin shots over the years, they're not in the same league. Most eye pokes won't shut you down immediately and I agree that a trained grappler has a built in defense - sound grappling entails denying position to apply sustained pressure on your face or neck; and because a potential fight-ending eye gouge (the likes of which blinded Yuki Nakai) required a sustained gouge that still didn't prevent him from finishing his own sub on a much larger, stronger man in Gordeau. Yes if you attempt that on a superior grappler, he's going to return the favor with interest.

Great insight with; sound grappling entails denying position to apply sustained pressure on your face or neck.
Also I think having a petrified mammoth nutsack would be a game changer. Lol.

 

[maximus__]

Maybe you have a petrified mammoth nutsack but mine is highly sensitive to impact. Having had the misfortune of many incidental eye pokes and groin shots over the years, they're not in the same league. Most eye pokes won't shut you down immediately and I agree that a trained grappler has a built in defense - sound grappling entails denying position to apply sustained pressure on your face or neck; and because a potential fight-ending eye gouge (the likes of which blinded Yuki Nakai) required a sustained gouge that still didn't prevent him from finishing his own sub on a much larger, stronger man in Gordeau. Yes if you attempt that on a superior grappler, he's going to return the favor with interest.

Not so with nut shots and I'm not talking a slow dick twist like the knucklehead boot in my vid above. I don't care if you're fucking Benny Blanco from the Bronx. An unexpected, direct slap/foot/knee to unprotected nuts (without a cup) is a one hitter quitter and unless other guy telegraphs it like Happy Gilmore, it's not something modern BJJ seems to contemplate. Just today as I was getting handled by the two BBs who typically do that to me, even from inferior positions like bottom north south, turtling out of a guard pass, defending a HG sweep, I saw multiple openings to inflict ball-busting justice had I been so inclined.

To be clear, I'm not saying nut shots > BJJ. But they're capable of turning the tide and they're not something most grapplers anticipate in training.

I am on the smaller side and regularly get paired with newer people both in BJJ, MMA and Muay thai. I have developed a reasonably good ability to recover from sustained attacks to the groin and low blows, because every new MMA fan wants to throw inside leg kicks. Not saying they aren't effective, just saying they can be protected against, recovered from and inflicted back if those rules are on the table.

As you just said you were able to see these positions during you training, that's because you have trained. The untrained person doesn;t defend that half guard sweep, gets finished from NS and doesn't know to turtle out of that guard pass because they kicked straight out at your groin and you passed them to mount. You had these options available to you because of your grappling skill.

Just think about what you can do to a day 1 whitebelt, regardless of their size. Now imagine you are trying to destroy them(instead of being nice), can do every dirty grappling trick you know AND can groin strike or eye gouge.

 

[maximus__]

Uh, no. The grappler is totally open to groin strikes in open gaurd unless he controls the wrists, and he can't as easily do the same from this position. It's the same reason the mount (essentially the gaurd position but now on top) is likewise very vulnerable to groin attacks.


How many people would be willing to be blinded for life in a fight? I think that's a fight ender for 98% of the population, Nakai has some of that crazy Sumurai mentality it's not normal.


A sad moment when the legendary 'Worlds most dangerous man' crumpled from a knee strike to the groin through a protective cup, in his last match.



They are damaging especially without protective gear.


Well they could both eye gouge from that position but the point is if you do that it's a different game entirely and the positions totally change ie where and what is a safe position. As has been pointed out guard is potentially unsafe in terms of protecting against groin strikes or grabs unless you keep wrist control and use it very transitionallly to get a sub and even here there maybe risk still, but to be fair the aim of high level BJJ is to get a finishing hold and ideally minimise these risks at a high level although with the emphasis on sport BJJ these days I think it's gotten less effective for this aspect.



Well why not do some training specifically to add hypothetical eye gouging positions and groin attacking positions? When I have done this in the past it gave me a new appreciation of what was safe in grappling if you didnt want to risk exposure to the possibility of this. Its an 'eye opening' experience honestly, pardon the pun.

You don't need to control the wrists to groin strike. You can just kick to the groin from sports positions like de la riva safely. It's as sporty a position as you can get and completely changes if you add groin strikes and upkicks. Same with single leg x. Plenty of the sporty guards actually work that way especially in the gi. You aren't thinking about the options available to the grappler at all in these situations, just the other person.

I strongly disagree in the mounted position. The entire position has changed in recent years. Gone are the days of sitting on the hips and being bridge and rolled. Now it's either the grapevine to hold an explosive person or isloating arms above the head and climbing high with head control. How can you groin strike when you have nothing to strike with? Like everything you just need to adjust your position and use the right techniques for self defence.

Ken Shamrock was 60 years old and was barely even hurt from that. Look at him yelling at the ref and spending more time focusing on getting the ref to see it, compared to actually just fighting through like he would have back in the day.

I am not saying that you can't groin strike at all or eye gouge from any of these positions. My argument is that both parties can, but one is doing it from an actual position of offence and/or control. Same with your last comment. The grappler can instantly add these things into their game and they do it from actual dominant positions. The untrained person is opening themselves up to everything by going for these types of attacks with no idea when they are in control or safe.

 

[skaleton]

How do they actually train eye gouging? Do they pay people to actually gouge out their eye or do they just think about it from positions? You can't train an eye gouge. It's why you see elbows thrown less often than punches in MMA fights. It's harder to spar with them and you can't practice them as easily.

I am as skilled just by thinking about an eye gouge in this thread as any person who says they train them.

Good question. Maybe they practice eye gouging by grabbing melons and poking holes in them. But I bet they don't think about it from various positions which is why they are clowns.

Ive trained eye gouges with a couple people from my gym.

For myself, I put my fingertips on the side of their head and basically mark the gouge with my thumb exactly like I would a heelhook in training.

When I've had them done to me by my partners (who I had significantly more experience then) the gouges have been effective at making me bail on a position to get away from the gouge., eg side control to north south

 

[TheMaster]

I strongly disagree in the mounted position. The entire position has changed in recent years. Gone are the days of sitting on the hips and being bridge and rolled. Now it's either the grapevine to hold an explosive person or isloating arms above the head and climbing high with head control. How can you groin strike when you have nothing to strike with? Like everything you just need to adjust your position and use the right techniques for self defence.

Just from a technical perspective, explain how you think this grapevine mount position is in any way safe against potential groin attacks?

Honestly if they were included you would arguably be safer on the bottom from this position.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I am on the smaller side and regularly get paired with newer people both in BJJ, MMA and Muay thai. I have developed a reasonably good ability to recover from sustained attacks to the groin and low blows, because every new MMA fan wants to throw inside leg kicks. Not saying they aren't effective, just saying they can be protected against, recovered from and inflicted back if those rules are on the table.

As you just said you were able to see these positions during you training, that's because you have trained. The untrained person doesn;t defend that half guard sweep, gets finished from NS and doesn't know to turtle out of that guard pass because they kicked straight out at your groin and you passed them to mount. You had these options available to you because of your grappling skill.

Just think about what you can do to a day 1 whitebelt, regardless of their size. Now imagine you are trying to destroy them(instead of being nice), can do every dirty grappling trick you know AND can groin strike or eye gouge.

Oh yeah, I'm agreeing with you that a trained grappler will always have the advantage in a real fight vs untrained. But it also sounds like you may indeed have petrified mammoth nuts - or they've somehow learned a peekaboo defense. You also seem to be conflating nut shots with and without a cup, which aren't remotely comparable.

You make a good point about a trained grappler seeing openings for groin attacks due to his training. But I'm not worried about some capoeira guy doing a jinga into a perfectly timed negativa into my balls. I'm more concerned about the untrained ones. The times I've been floored via groin strike in training, it’s been sans cup and almost always from a less skilled or practically untrained partner attempting to pass my guard and/or play DLR, x guard or something they suck at and are thus moving unpredictably. They end up knee slicing or foot slapping the boys and it's the ones you don't see coming that put you out.

Everything a white belt spaz/untrained brawler does is a low % hail mary with no control and that makes for a dangerous fight. I'm sure that's why old school BJJ for vale tudo entailed closing the distance immediately and giving them no space in mount or closed guard.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

39 years old, haven't had a street fight in nearly 20 years

Fought daily as a kid and changed as I became a young adult, due to boxing and kickboxing, only moved to grappling post covid

So many talk about hypotheticals In street fights. I have been lucky to be fair I did a little door work and had some altercations, but nothing major

I know for some unfortunate people, you will need to defend yourself, because assholes do exist, but I find if you carry yourself accordingly and don't look for trouble? Then 99.9% of the time you won't find

Now I hope I have not jinxed my situation by posting this, but I think most street fights can be avoided if you are level headed, confident and know how to talk to people

No winners in a street fight imo. Even if you win? You likely lose

Now self defence is different, which is necessary if someone becomes confrontational

 

[maximus__]

Oh yeah, I'm agreeing with you that a trained grappler will always have the advantage in a real fight vs untrained. But it also sounds like you may indeed have petrified mammoth nuts - or they've somehow learned a peekaboo defense. You also seem to be conflating nut shots with and without a cup, which aren't remotely comparable.

You make a good point about a trained grappler seeing openings for groin attacks due to his training. But I'm not worried about some capoeira guy doing a jinga into a perfectly timed negativa into my balls. I'm more concerned about the untrained ones. The times I've been floored via groin strike in training, it’s been sans cup and almost always from a less skilled or practically untrained partner attempting to pass my guard and/or play DLR, x guard or something they suck at and are thus moving unpredictably. They end up knee slicing or foot slapping the boys and it's the ones you don't see coming that put you out.

Everything a white belt spaz/untrained brawler does is a low % hail mary with no control and that makes for a dangerous fight. I'm sure that's why old school BJJ for vale tudo entailed closing the distance immediately and giving them no space in mount or closed guard.

TLDR:
Protect yourself at all times and foul them back.

Haha I don't have petrified mammoth nuts, though I kinda wish I did. I just accept that groin shots happen in training against people because we train in contact sports and spend an unusual amount of time between each others legs. I never wear a cup. I adjust my position and protect myself from these situations as much as possible.

You are taking these shots in positions you think you are safe because of the ruleset. They are catching you with you basically allowing them access because we have an agreement we will be careful in those positions. It's the same as not doing kana basami even though it completely changes the single leg wrestling game.

Don't get me wrong I don't think they aren't effective, but the topic of the thread is about the trained grappler vs untrained person trying to use eye gouges and groin strikes to win a grappling fight. My argument is grappler will just foul them back, but do it better.

We have seen this play out in MMA already. They had to change the rules because the grapplers were destroying everyone early on in no time limit fights with headbutts and groin strikes being allowed. None of the groin strike, dim mak guys were majorly successful at any point in fighting history because they can't spar their techniques and get destroyed by basic boxing or grappling with minor adjustments.

 

[maximus__]

Just from a technical perspective, explain how you think this grapevine mount position is in any way safe against potential groin attacks?
View attachment 1016337
Honestly if they were included you would arguably be safer on the bottom from this position.

Simply by hipping in correctly and stretching the bottom persons legs out. In a proper grapevine the hips are driving in. There is no access to the groin at all because there is no space?

It can be used as a submission.


If bottom person reaches in for the groin they have to bend their arms and are basically giving up under hooks.

Or top person just hips in and gouges the eyes themselves and the fight is magically finished. That's before we even add strikes to the equation from there.

Everything is accessible to the grappler, they just get to do it from a better position.