First time buyer's thread

[HockeyBjj]

So this has come up a few times now in the War Room, someone casually mentions their interest in getting their first gun. Or maybe they just have grandpa's old shotgun and now want something much newer but the options available are just so overwhelming. I was thinking a thread for people to ask questions, have them answered by the regulars here, and get pointed in the right direction would be beneficial. Trying to keep this basic. Even down to "Should I get a shotgun or rifle when my needs are X?" The various minor differences between similar platforms don't need to be dug into much here, there's better places for a person argue the differences of forged vs billeted 80% lowers. Help someone with what fits their needs, what sticks out of a few models vs others, and how to know if it's the right one for them.

Remember that the W&T is a non political sub. So no harping about how no one needs a binary trigger and 90 round drum mag, nor trying to push someone who'd prefer to get a pump action shotgun they'd keep locked in a safe for home defense.

Another aspect even more critical here in 2020 is helping someone through all the differing laws the stricter state's have. I understand the Illinois system, but don't feel confident to talk about what makes a semi auto rifle legal vs illegal to purchase and posses in a state like California or New Jersey although this could be a place to get a person hooked up with a link to buy one known to be A-ok with the various features added or removed.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Great thread idea. Send people on over. We're all happy to help educate one-another.

For beginners it can really be this simple, depending on which type of firearm they want.

Rifle: AR15 from Palmetto State Armory
Shotgun (pump): Mossberg 500 or Remington 870
Pistol: Glock 17 (full-size) or 19 (compact)

Could probably get all three platforms new for $400 + $275 + $550 = $1225.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Great thread idea. Send people on over. We're all happy to help educate one-another.

For beginners it can really be this simple, depending on which type of firearm they want.

Rifle: AR15 from Palmetto State Armory
Shotgun (pump): Mossberg 500 or Remington 870
Pistol: Glock 17 (full-size) or 19 (compact)

Could probably get all three platforms new for $400 + $275 + $550 = $1225.

Co-sign all those selections as great go to firsts (heck, my 870 has treated me so well I’ve never looked into “upgrading”).

For a hunting rifle, curious what your recommended go to would be? Savage Axis 2 and Ruger American I’ve heard good things about. Remington 770s I’ve had trouble getting good groups out of.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Co-sign all those selections as great go to firsts (heck, my 870 has treated me so well I’ve never looked into “upgrading”).

For a hunting rifle, curious what your recommended go to would be? Savage Axis 2 and Ruger American I’ve heard good things about. Remington 770s I’ve had trouble getting good groups out of.

I don't hunt and lack the experience to give good advice.

Adding to my previous post, the Ruger 10/22 is the quintessential starter rifle for American youth. Also a great option for adults who want to plink cheaply.

 

[My Spot]

rifle: PSA (complete lower for $130 and complete upper for $230)
handgun: M&P 2.0 (full size or compact)*
shotgun: Mossberg 88 (right handed) or Mossberg 500 (left handed)**

*A Glock 17 or 19 is also a great choice but you're gonna be paying roughly $150 more for an arguably worse gun.
**I wouldn't recommend an 870 since Freedom Group bought Remington. Shitty QC.

Edit: Glock 48 if you live in a retarded state that only allows 10 round mags.

 

[My Spot]

Although you can get a 92FS for $430 now and that's a great beginner's 9mm (and fun range gun to shoot). Hmm...

 

[My Spot]

@HockeyBjj

HANDGUN
If you live in a state that bans "high capacity" magazines: Glock 48
If you don't: M&P 2.0 Compact 9mm

RIFLE
For most: PSA AR15 (complete lower for $130 and complete upper for $230)
For states that ban "assault" weapons: Mini 14 or "featureless" AR15

SHOTGUN
If you're left handed: Mossberg 500
If not: Mossberg Maverick 88

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

rifle: PSA (complete lower for $130 and complete upper for $230)
handgun: M&P 2.0 (full size or compact)*
shotgun: Mossberg 88 (right handed) or Mossberg 500 (left handed)**

*A Glock 17 or 19 is also a great choice but you're gonna be paying roughly $150 more for an arguably worse gun.
**I wouldn't recommend an 870 since Freedom Group bought Remington. Shitty QC.

Edit: Glock 48 if you live in a retarded state that only allows 10 round mags.

You might be right on the M&P. I said Glock because of the strong aftermarket support.

 

[My Spot]

You might be right on the M&P. I said Glock because of the strong aftermarket support.

Yeah it's not like you can go wrong either way. Just such a huge difference in price. I got mine with night sights for $330 with free shipping.
And shame on Glock for still using those damn plastic sights.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Yeah it's not like you can go wrong either way. Just such a huge difference in price. I got mine with night sights for $330 with free shipping.
And shame on Glock for still using those damn plastic sights.

You make me want to edit my original post, but I'll own the mistake.

For an affordable striker-fired gun I'm sold on the CZ P10C. Easy to find for under $400. Great trigger. Accurate. Only Glock I ever owned is the 43.

 

[Gregolian]

CZ P10C is a great gun

 

[hunto]

I like Ruger revolvers, big heavy cast steel frames that take loads of abuse, heavy loads, etc. If it runs dry it makes an excellent club. They are reliable, built like tanks, parts can be gotten for them if needed, simple to work on, and the stainless guns don't need babying.

Glock Glock Glock they eat any ammo, run forever, if you do need to replace a part they are available, many gun makers don't sell repair parts to the end-user, making the repair cost more. They are simple to take apart and clean or service. They take incredible abuse and still keep working, and police trade-ins can be found for under $400 in fine shooting condition. I paid $390 for my Gen 2 G23 PTI 6 years ago and it came with 3 mags. If you get a .40 cal Glock there are conversion barrels available to shoot 9mm and .357SIG in it with just a barrel and mag change. The bigger-framed .45 will take a 10MM conversion barrel as well as .45 Super, again with just the mags needed for the other calibers. Wolf makes affordable barrels ($140 or so).

I don't like shotguns for HD, but that's just me. They are not drop-safe with a round chambered, and under the stress of a shooting situation it is possible to short-stroke it causing a jam. The blast out of an 18" barrel is very loud in a home, and there will be a big fireball too, potentially affecting vision temporarily. For the length and weight of a shotgun, I'd rather have a semi-auto rifle (AK).

AK is my preferred platform. I've owned ARs, and they can be fine shooters, very accurate, but they can be jam-prone too. I prefer the reliability of the AK rifle, and I also prefer the heavier larger-caliber bullet too (7.62x39). I own 5.45x39 caliber AKs too, and prefer that caliber to .223, as the bullet is designed to tumble in flesh, as opposed to fragmenting. Fragmenting is reliant on velocity, and the AR was designed for a 20" barrel, a bit long for HD. 16" barrel loses velocity, and so the bullet is less likely to fragment as it was designed to do, acting like a FMJ. 5.45 and some 7.62x39 ammo tumbles after hitting flesh, and isn't so reliant on velocity- those bullets tumble out of my Dracos 12 " barrel just fine. For both the gun, and the ammo, I go with AK over AR, and either of those over a shotgun. And parts are easily gotten for the AK, and they're cheap, and the gun is simple and easy to fix. It is intuitively designed so that the vast uneducated masses of the former Soviet empire could maintain them with minimal instruction and minimal chance of breaking it or putting it together wrong.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

AK is my preferred platform. I've owned ARs, and they can be fine shooters, very accurate, but they can be jam-prone too. I prefer the reliability of the AK rifle, and I also prefer the heavier larger-caliber bullet too (7.62x39). I own 5.45x39 caliber AKs too, and prefer that caliber to .223, as the bullet is designed to tumble in flesh, as opposed to fragmenting. Fragmenting is reliant on velocity, and the AR was designed for a 20" barrel, a bit long for HD. 16" barrel loses velocity, and so the bullet is less likely to fragment as it was designed to do, acting like a FMJ. 5.45 and some 7.62x39 ammo tumbles after hitting flesh, and isn't so reliant on velocity- those bullets tumble out of my Dracos 12 " barrel just fine. For both the gun, and the ammo, I go with AK over AR, and either of those over a shotgun. And parts are easily gotten for the AK, and they're cheap, and the gun is simple and easy to fix. It is intuitively designed so that the vast uneducated masses of the former Soviet empire could maintain them with minimal instruction and minimal chance of breaking it or putting it together wrong.

That's some pretty outdated info on reliability and bullet design.

Modern quality AR's are extremely reliable and the modern ammo available is substantially better in terminal performance than the 7.62x39.

 

[jericksen5]

I’d recommend buying your first gun used on armslist. You can get a heavy discount and avoid taxes/fees. You can also shoot the gun for a while, and if you decide it’s not the best fit for you or you want to try something else, you can easily sell it for the same price you bought it for or close to. Even if you buy a used Glock 19 for instance, shoot it for a year, and sell it for $25 or $50 less than you bought it for, you basically rented a Glock 19 for $25 or $50 for a year. Keep doing this till you find that gun that just naturally works for you.

 

[hunto]

That's some pretty outdated info on reliability and bullet design.

Modern quality AR's are extremely reliable and the modern ammo available is substantially better in terminal performance than the 7.62x39.

We'll just have disagree. 7.62x39 FMJ will tumble wtihin the first 3 inches of flesh. It is not dependant on velocity, like the AR rounds, which are designed to fragment. This is borne out by the experiences of our troops in the various theaters right now- the .223 acts like FMJ , and they have to shoot repeatedly to drop BGs. The units we have that can pick their own weapons do not choose .223 cal weapons, for a very good reason. ;D

 

[RerouteToRemain]

We'll just have disagree. 7.62x39 FMJ will tumble wtihin the first 3 inches of flesh. It is not dependant on velocity, like the AR rounds, which are designed to fragment. This is borne out by the experiences of our troops in the various theaters right now- the .223 acts like FMJ , and they have to shoot repeatedly to drop BGs. The units we have that can pick their own weapons do not choose .223 cal weapons, for a very good reason. ;D

There are numerous rounds available for 5.56 and numerous bullet designs. Fragment or expand. Any round that fragments or expands is velocity dependent. Hell I can even buy 5.56 rounds designed to tumble upon impact.


Let's talk about a shitty fragmenting round. Here is a military M855 round. Reliable fragmentation is roughly 2600 fps. 16" barrel velocity is roughly 3000 fps.

This round is a horrible round and does act like an fmj after 125ish yards. This is where the 5.56 got the reputation you are speaking of.

USMC adopted the mk 318 mod 0 and it was a significant improvement. Expansion threshold of roughly 1900-2000 fps. Velocity out of a 16" is 2950 fps. Designed to fragment while the base continues deep penetration. Fragments out to 350ish yards. This is a great round.

But anyway we don't have to use shitty ammo like m855. We can choose what we want.

We can use bonded rounds, quality fragmenting rounds, solid copper, etc.

Here is an example of a quality fragmenting round

Simulated velocity for 315 yards

This round will expand reliably at 1750 fps or roughly out past 400 yards with a 16". With a 20" people are getting expansion at 500 yards on game.


An example of a solid copper option.

50gr tsx, this round is meant as a barrier round and has great expansion down to 2200 fps. There are 55, 62 and 70 gr tsx options that expand 1900fps for the 55 and 1800 fps for the 62 and 70. The 70 and 62 offer expansion out to 350-400 yards.

64gr speer gold dot

16" velocity is 2700 will expand 100% reliably at 1800 fps but can expand down to 1600 fps. 16" will expand out to 350 yards. 10.5" will expand a bit past 200 yards.


These are just a few examples of bonded lead, solid copper and fragmenting 5.56 rounds.

For basically anyone's purposes, a round that can expand/fragment past 350 yards is more than enough. Also for home defense if over penetration is a concern there are numerous rounds available that will not over penetrate targets.

 

[jericksen5]

There are numerous rounds available for 5.56 and numerous bullet designs. Fragment or expand. Any round that fragments or expands is velocity dependent. Hell I can even buy 5.56 rounds designed to tumble upon impact.


Let's talk about a shitty fragmenting round. Here is a military M855 round. Reliable fragmentation is roughly 2600 fps. 16" barrel velocity is roughly 3000 fps.

This round is a horrible round and does act like an fmj after 125ish yards. This is where the 5.56 got the reputation you are speaking of.

USMC adopted the mk 318 mod 0 and it was a significant improvement. Expansion threshold of roughly 1900-2000 fps. Velocity out of a 16" is 2950 fps. Designed to fragment while the base continues deep penetration. Fragments out to 350ish yards. This is a great round.

But anyway we don't have to use shitty ammo like m855. We can choose what we want.

We can use bonded rounds, quality fragmenting rounds, solid copper, etc.

Here is an example of a quality fragmenting round

Simulated velocity for 315 yards

This round will expand reliably at 1750 fps or roughly out 400 yards with a 16". With a 20" people are getting expansion at 500 yards on game.


An example of a solid copper option.

50gr tsx, this round is meant as a barrier round and has great expansion down to 2200 fps. There are 55, 62 and 70 gr tsx options that expand 1900fps for the 55 and 1800 fps for the 62 and 70. The 70 and 62 offer expansion out to 350-400 yards.

64gr speer gold dot

16" velocity is 2700 will expand 100% reliably at 1800 fps but can expand down to 1600 fps. 16" will expand out to 350+ yards. 10.5" will expand a bit past 200 yards.


These are just a few examples of bonded lead, solid copper and fragmenting 5.56 rounds.

For basically anyone's purposes, a round that can expand/fragment past 350 yards is more than enough. Also for home defense if over penetration is a concern there are numerous rounds available that will not over penetrate targets.

What would be some of your recommendations for defensive ammo for a 10.5” barrel?

 

[My Spot]

What would be some of your recommendations for defensive ammo for a 10.5” barrel?

75gr or 77gr.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

What would be some of your recommendations for defensive ammo for a 10.5” barrel?

Depends on your needs.

77gr tmk should get you the furthest range, great fragmentation and doesn't run the risk of over penetration like a solid copper or bonded round.

50gr tsx will be an excellent barrier round but it will not have the range. 75-100 yards is probably max.

10.5" performance

Penetration: 15.5"Retained weight: 49.8gr
Max expansion: 0.504"
Min expansion: 0.321"
Neck: 0"
TSC: 3.5" x 6"

Velocities in fps:
2,882
2,868
2,887
2,857
2,806
Average: 2,860
StdDev: 32.41
Min: 2,806
Max: 2,887
Spread: 81


Speer gold dot from a 7.5" at 1930 fps




62gr federal fusion down to 1700 fps.



That 11.5" is a very light load, not actual velocity of an 11.5. So this is another fantastic round.

 

[jericksen5]

Depends on your needs.

77gr tmk should get you the furthest range, great fragmentation and doesn't run the risk of over penetration like a solid copper or bonded round.

50gr tsx will be an excellent barrier round but it will not have the range. 75-100 yards is probably max.

10.5" performance

Penetration: 15.5"Retained weight: 49.8gr
Max expansion: 0.504"
Min expansion: 0.321"
Neck: 0"
TSC: 3.5" x 6"

Velocities in fps:
2,882
2,868
2,887
2,857
2,806
Average: 2,860
StdDev: 32.41
Min: 2,806
Max: 2,887
Spread: 81


Speer gold dot from a 7.5" at 1930 fps




62gr federal fusion down to 1700 fps.



That 11.5" is a very light load, not actual velocity of an 11.5. So this is another fantastic round.

Glad you said Speer Gold Dots. They still have some at my LGS.
What’s your thoughts on 55gr varmint for HD?