GOAT debate is worthless.

[HHJ]

You can’t say whether or not god exists either, yet somehow people love to talk about it.

Also, your name is HHJ which I read as “Happy Hand Job”, I like your posts mostly it’s just, what I read when I see that name

Of course if i gave hand jobs there would be happiness.

Pshhhh

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Of course if i gave hand jobs there would be happiness.

Pshhhh

 

[Yellowcrab]

You can’t even read your posted article which mentions 4 separate events where he was caught on PEDs. The turinabol flagging is unjustifiable because there is an astronomically low chance that a rare substance like this make it way to a factory and contaminate Jones ‘supplements’. It’s also an illegal substance btw.

Innocent until proven guilty bro, GSP still clean.

Read the article again, he was only guilty for recreational use of cocaine.

So yeah, innocent until proven otherwise...

If i can't say GSP isn't clean, then you can't say Jones isn't clean too.

 

[BFoe]

Read the article again, he was only guilty for recreational use of cocaine.

So yeah, innocent until proven otherwise...

If i can't say GSP isn't clean, then you can't say Jones isn't clean too.

Lmao Jones has multiple PED failures though. His tests from pre-UFC 200 and pre-UFC 214 are unequivocal, undeniable PED FAILURES. And that’s without even dealing with his UFC 182 super suspicious T/E ratio, and his UFC 232 “pulsing” bullshit.

 

[ryun253]

How would prime Jones & prime Fedor play out?

 

[Yellowcrab]

Lmao Jones has multiple PED failures though. His tests from pre-UFC 200 and pre-UFC 214 are unequivocal, undeniable PED FAILURES. And that’s without even dealing with his UFC 182 super suspicious T/E ratio, and his UFC 232 “pulsing” bullshit.

I don't think he's clean.

But since people use the excuse of innocent until proven otherwise, fine :

UFC 200 = Throughout the ordeal, Jones maintained his innocence, claiming that he was the victim of a contaminated product that he believed to be Cialis, which was later independently obtained, tested and found to be contaminated by the United States Anti-Doping Agency.[237] On November 7, 2016, it was announced that Jones was issued a 1-year suspension by USADA following his arbitration hearing, though the panel concluded that Jones did not take the banned substances intentionally, and was not a drug cheat.

UFC 214 : The independent arbitrator found that Jon Jones was not intentionally cheating in this case, and while we thought 18-months was the appropriate sanction given the other circumstances of the case, we respect the arbitrator's decision and believe that justice was served. This case is another strong reminder that athletes need to be extremely cautious about the products and supplements they use to ensure they are free of prohibited substances.

UFC 182 : However, according to NSAC executive director Bob Bennett, Jones' test samples had already undergone CIR testing by the same WADA-accredited lab which had reported his T/E ratios, noting that all CIR results came back clean.[232] Additionally, he said there were three different types of tests done during each of the random tests: urine, blood testing for human growth hormone and a blood passport test. "The only negative was testing positive for cocaine metabolites," Bennett said.

UFC 232 : CSAC did not take disciplinary action against Jones as the medical experts stated that there was no evidence that Jones had re-administered a banned substance and no performance-enhancing benefits were gained.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Jones#Failed_drug_tests

But yeah, let's not forget Fedor is clean (obviously) :

- No doping testing in Pride FC
- Russia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia
- He beat all the cheaters in the Pride FC while being clean, yet he lost against Henderson due to TRT (perfect logic)

 

[RemyR]

A Sherdogger making sense?

Now this is something you don’t see every day.

 

[BFoe]

I don't think he's clean.

But since people use the excuse of innocent until proven otherwise, fine :

UFC 200 = Throughout the ordeal, Jones maintained his innocence, claiming that he was the victim of a contaminated product that he believed to be Cialis, which was later independently obtained, tested and found to be contaminated by the United States Anti-Doping Agency.[237] On November 7, 2016, it was announced that Jones was issued a 1-year suspension by USADA following his arbitration hearing, though the panel concluded that Jones did not take the banned substances intentionally, and was not a drug cheat.

UFC 214 : The independent arbitrator found that Jon Jones was not intentionally cheating in this case, and while we thought 18-months was the appropriate sanction given the other circumstances of the case, we respect the arbitrator's decision and believe that justice was served. This case is another strong reminder that athletes need to be extremely cautious about the products and supplements they use to ensure they are free of prohibited substances.

UFC 182 : However, according to NSAC executive director Bob Bennett, Jones' test samples had already undergone CIR testing by the same WADA-accredited lab which had reported his T/E ratios, noting that all CIR results came back clean.[232] Additionally, he said there were three different types of tests done during each of the random tests: urine, blood testing for human growth hormone and a blood passport test. "The only negative was testing positive for cocaine metabolites," Bennett said.

UFC 232 : CSAC did not take disciplinary action against Jones as the medical experts stated that there was no evidence that Jones had re-administered a banned substance and no performance-enhancing benefits were gained.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Jones#Failed_drug_tests

But yeah, let's not forget Fedor is clean (obviously) :

- No doping testing in Pride FC
- Russia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia
- He beat all the cheaters in the Pride FC while being clean, yet he lost against Henderson due to TRT (perfect logic)

You can split hairs or try and pretend Jones didn’t take this stuff intentionally if you want. The bottom line is he has failed multiple PED tests, violated the Code of Conduct multiple times, had titles stripped for this multiple times, been suspended due to these failures multiple times, and had a win overreturned to an NC because of a PED failure. He’s been found guilty of ingesting PEDs multiple times.

—Fedor competed under WADA testing in sambo.
—Fedor competed under the same commission requirements that have caught other fighters—like Jon Jones. Jones’ UFC 182 failed test was administered by NSAC, not USADA. Likewise, Barnett failed in Affliction while Fedor passed, for example.
—Fedor is adamant that he did not use PEDs, and has not ever even been accused of that by any fighter to my knowledge.
—Many fighters in their athletic primes were able to beat juiced up opponents, only to be less successful doing that as they aged. Mark Hunt would be another example.
Fedor had an easier time beating juiced up opponents when he was younger, it became harder to do as he aged. Pretty easy to understand.

 

[Fioretti]

He referenced years and longevity many times.

And stats in boxing are stupid and almost no one uses them. Older eras guys fought 100+ fights. Their “totals” will be a function of that. That doesn’t inherently mean they were greater. Again, compare Ali’s strength of schedule to Louis and Klitcshko and its not comparable. Yet people want to just boil it down to # of defenses? It’s comical.

And you can’t just say Louis 27 > Klitschko 25. It’s completely different eras. You have to contextualize both.

You're being intentionally obtuse and difficult, even though you understand exactly what he's saying. I used the example of 27 > 25 to clarify on your intentionally misleading argument, as you're trying to turn it into him saying length of reign, when he wasn't. "Stats in boxing are stupid and almost no one uses them" is some bullshit, friend. Stats are used in measuring/comparing athletes in all competitive events. Strength of schedule is a stat. Weird you like that one, but others are stupid? Hmmm.....

27 is greater than 25, that is a fact. Eras and contextualization are irrelevant. Louis had more title victories in less time as champion. That is doing it greater. Moving onto eras and contextualization after establishing that fact is ok, but it doesn't change the fact that 27 > 25. Greatness is determined by accomplishments. It's the only way to compare greatness to greatness, the only way to establish greater. They're all great, it is known.

 

[myjohnson9]

There is no greatest of all time,just the fighter you happen to like the most,at any given time.

All these fighters fought in different eras,weight classes,which presented their own set of benefits and serious challenges.

Obviously the matchmaking system is much looser in the past,and the stance towards PED's. But these men would fight twice,sometimes three times as much as the average fighter now..for alot less pay. Alot more short notice fights,alot more last min opponent changes. Sometimes you didnt even know what the full card was until you watched it. Alot less ways to study your opponents because footage on them would be difficult,and sometimes impossible to obtain. Pride didnt even have public weigh ins!

Those people with their noses up in the air about how much better (or more talented the fighters are) it is now,ought to think about that.

Now things are presented alot clearer,with a rankings system,that helps to keep things competitive and more difficult (for some) to make it to the top. Would todays stars have an easier time in the wilder more loose way the sport was run 20 yrs ago? Or would the hardened warriors who didnt mind throwin hands 6 times a year,dominate the current crop of guys we have,and make them look like sissies?

There's no way to tell. So shut up.

You could say Khabib was the best LW of his era,and that BJ was the best in his. Thats about as far as you can really go.

prime fedor would beat any unarmed man in 1 on 1 combat. There is no debate. Fedor is GOAT

 

[pankrat]

You're being intentionally obtuse and difficult, even though you understand exactly what he's saying. I used the example of 27 > 25 to clarify on your intentionally misleading argument, as you're trying to turn it into him saying length of reign, when he wasn't. "Stats in boxing are stupid and almost no one uses them" is some bullshit, friend. Stats are used in measuring/comparing athletes in all competitive events. Strength of schedule is a stat. Weird you like that one, but others are stupid? Hmmm.....

27 is greater than 25, that is a fact. Eras and contextualization are irrelevant. Louis had more title victories in less time as champion. That is doing it greater. Moving onto eras and contextualization after establishing that fact is ok, but it doesn't change the fact that 27 > 25. Greatness is determined by accomplishments. It's the only way to compare greatness to greatness, the only way to establish greater. They're all great, it is known.

Ali is greater than them though

 

[Viper2]

Fedor

 

[Yellowcrab]

—Fedor is adamant that he did not use PEDs, and has not ever even been accused of that by any fighter to my knowledge.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/06/28/fedo...ds-says-ufc-champion-michael-bisping-6741461/

Fedor has far more probabilities being a much heavier cheater than Jones, because doping is less tolerated in western countries* and because it's harder to cheat when your organisation doesn't give you a free pass.

Doping is widespread in eastern europe, not only in Russia.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany : another example here.

Fedor had an easier time beating juiced up opponents when he was younger, it became harder to do as he aged. Pretty easy to understand.

Yet he lost in the first round by KO against an almost 41 years old MW, only due to TRT... still extremely logic...

 

[kflo]

You're being intentionally obtuse and difficult, even though you understand exactly what he's saying. I used the example of 27 > 25 to clarify on your intentionally misleading argument, as you're trying to turn it into him saying length of reign, when he wasn't.

It’s almost as if he didn’t say this:

“Longevity as a champion is what greatness is. Especially in relation to individual sports.

A fighter that was champion for 20 years is clearly a better fighter than a fighter that was champion for 5 years. It's vastly harder to be elite for a longer time period compared to a short time period... for a million reasons. Age, mileage, varying styles of fights, whatever.”
​

Or this:

“The length of your elite status is what makes a GOAT a GOAT. It's what this shit is based around.”​

"Stats in boxing are stupid and almost no one uses them" is some bullshit, friend. Stats are used in measuring/comparing athletes in all competitive events. Strength of schedule is a stat. Weird you like that one, but others are stupid? Hmmm.....

I never said stats are stupid. I said using singular stats and ignoring others, ignoring context, ignoring other variables is stupid. And it is.

27 is greater than 25, that is a fact. Eras and contextualization are irrelevant. Louis had more title victories in less time as champion. That is doing it greater. Moving onto eras and contextualization after establishing that fact is ok, but it doesn't change the fact that 27 > 25. Greatness is determined by accomplishments. It's the only way to compare greatness to greatness, the only way to establish greater. They're all great, it is known.

Again, this is simply fantasy. Eras and contextualization are irrelevant in evaluating who the goat is? This simply absurd and nonsensical.

This stupid absolute nonsense again leads to stupid absolute conclusions, like klitschko > ali, or gregorian > duran (and tons of other absurditities). I’m sure you think cy young is by far the best pitcher who ever lived. And again, Jordan doesn’t lead in any totals category. None.

So, yes, 27>25. That doesn’t inherently mean the guy with 27 is the goat. If it did, we wouldn’t have any of these debates. It would be just a statistical comparison. It’s not. 27 isn’t automatically > 22. If it was, no one would consider ali the goat. But alas, many do. SRR only won 12 title fights total in his career. Yet many consider him the goat.

 

[BFoe]

https://metro.co.uk/2017/06/28/fedo...ds-says-ufc-champion-michael-bisping-6741461/

Fedor has far more probabilities being a much heavier cheater than Jones, because doping is less tolerated in western countries and because it's harder to cheat when your organisation doesn't give you a free pass.

Doping is widespread in eastern europe, not only in Russia.

The guy who has 0 failed PED test does not have “more probability” of being a cheater than the guy who has actually been proven to cheat. That’s not how math works. Jones probability of being a cheater is 100%, because, you know—it actually happened.

Yet he lost in the first round by KO against an almost 41 years old MW, only due to TRT... still extremely logic...

I didn’t say TRT was the only factor. And I’m a big Hendo fan. But let’s be honest: just about every accolade Hendo ever achieved happened on TRT. Off TRT, Hendo fought 9 fights and went 3-6. It’s pretty obvious it played a big role in his performance.
Werdum? PED user.
Bigfoot Silva? PED user and TRT user.
Hendo? TRT user as I already covered.
I don’t hold Fedor’s losses or poor performances in his 2nd run against him too much as he’s old now, but it’s worth noting that Maldonado openly admitted he used PEDs in the UFC and planned to juice for the Fedor fight.

It’s pretty obvious it played a significant role in those fights, but please, keep up the denials.

 

[kflo]

Ali is greater than them though

You mean 22 > 27 and 25???

 

[EnthusiastCultivator]

Read the article again, he was only guilty for recreational use of cocaine.

So yeah, innocent until proven otherwise...

If i can't say GSP isn't clean, then you can't say Jones isn't clean too.

I get your reasoning behind breaking my logic, but simple intuition points that a guy who was potentially flagged multiple times and hid under a cage to avoid getting tested is more likely a guilty man that one who has never had any conspiracy against him when it comes to PEDs.

 

[Yellowcrab]

The guy who has 0 failed PED test does not have “more probability” of being a cheater than the guy who has actually been proven to cheat. That’s not how math works. Jones probability of being a cheater is 100%, because, you know—it actually happened.

Fine : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Sapp

I see nothing wrong in his Wiki page, everything is ok

100% more probabilities of Jones being a cheater compared to him.

I didn’t say TRT was the only factor. And I’m a big Hendo fan. But let’s be honest: just about every accolade Hendo ever achieved happened on TRT. Off TRT, Hendo fought 9 fights and went 3-6. It’s pretty obvious it played a big role in his performance.

Yeah yeah, we know the story : Fedor is invincible, when he loses, it's either because he was out of prime or because his opponents cheated, even though he was undefeated in Pride FC...

 

[Reffson]

He's not saying length of reign. Louis has 27 title fight wins. Klitschko has 25. He has 2 less title fight victories in 112 more days as champion, making what Joe Louis achieved greater. Stats matter, you know that. They're not the end-all-be-all, but they are a crucial factor in determining or measuring greatness. In fact, stats are typically the determining factor when you're comparing such comparable athletes. It's our only way of measuring once we get to a certain level.



No, GSP says it's Silva:

"But for me, without a doubt, on my list, Anderson Silva was the best of all time, pound for pound. In the mind of every martial artist, Anderson has to be there in the first place. The kind of thing he did we never saw from anyone else in the octagon. He was the first and in many ways he is still the one and only.'' - GSP

"...he is the best fighter who has ever stepped in the octagon. He is the best fighter of all time." - GSP

"...he is unbelievable, an incredible fighter. It is the best fighter that ever existed.'' - GSP

https://globoesporte.globo.com/comb...nenhuma-foi-o-melhor-de-todos-os-tempos.ghtml

2008 - UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, who appeared on this week's edition of Inside MMA and was asked at the end of the program to name the best pound for pound MMA fighter in the world. St. Pierre answered, "Fedor Emelianenko."

 

[pankrat]

You mean 22 > 27 and 25???

Me, and the general consensus in the boxing community mean so, look for pundits rankngs or listen to fellow great boxers. If you dont know though, check stats and pretend in a forum.

I dont think you find many people in basketball forums claiming Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Rushell are the GOATs based on stats, but so is possible for noobs in sherbro