How good was Fedor really? Was he truly elite?

[Leon Edwards]

brother, he fought some of those guys.....bait used to be believable.

He ducked overeem.

He was suppose to fight Overeem, but it just didn't work out. It was slated to go but he lost to Bigfoot in the Strikeforce HW tourney.

DC would have fought Fedor to, if it wasn't for Fedor losing badly to Bigfoot.

Barnett screwed up that fight with Fedor. It was ready to go.

Fedor fought Werdum.

Fedor fought Mir.

JDS and Cain are both in the UFC, hard to fight guys when you are not signed with that promotion.

There is nothing convenient of him avoiding anyone, it was just a matter of unfortunate circumstances.

Do you honestly think he was afraid to fight these guys?

He ducked reem and did not fight prime mir. Basically most of the best fighters of his eras he avoided/ducked. He fought 90% tomato cans.

 

[Taric]

Full stop he fought an 0-1 fighter when he was 17-1. His resume has been exposed over and over. He was a good fighter but not a god like some of these nut jobs think he was.

The two New Year's Eve bouts that took place in events outside of PRIDE (Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2003 and Yarennoka 2007) aren't even MMA fights as they didn't follow any actual MMA rules.

Those two bouts were exhibition bouts similar to Jones had against Dan Henderson or Fedor had against Shinya Aoki, neither of which you can find on their MMA records. They were exhibition bouts for fun. They weren't professional bouts.

All of Fedor's bouts in PRIDE were against guys considered actual competition at the time, just like all of Jones' UFC bouts were against guys considered actual competition at the time.

This is the problem with looking at records after the fact without having actually been there to witness it. You don't even understand what you're looking at.

 

[calavera2]

ROFL stomped by Hendo who was older...all you need to know

 

[JBJisGOAT14]

The two New Year's Eve bouts that took place in events outside of PRIDE (Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2003 and Yarennoka 2007) aren't even MMA fights as they didn't follow any actual MMA rules.

Those two bouts were exhibition bouts similar to Jones had against Dan Henderson or Fedor had against Shinya Aoki, neither of which you can find on their records. They were exhibition bouts for fun. They weren't professional bouts.

All of Fedor's bouts in PRIDE were against guys considered actual competition at the time, just like all of Jones' UFC bouts were against guys considered actual competition at the time.

This is the problem with looking at records after the fact without having actually been there to witness it. You don't even understand what you're looking at.

Than maybe you pride dweebs shouldn’t use the whole 10 year unbeaten thing when he was fighting taxi drivers and pro fake wrasslers. Fact of the matter is this, when he stepped up competition he was choked, beaten and knocked out face down ass up by a MW. Try again sir.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Above average.

 

[Taric]

Than maybe you pride dweebs shouldn’t use the whole 10 year unbeaten thing when he was fighting taxi drivers and pro fake wrasslers. Fact of the matter is this, when he stepped up competition he was choked, beaten and knocked out face down ass up by a MW. Try again sir.

Jon Jones has been in 5 non-UFC exhibition grappling bouts competing against taxi drivers, fake wrestlers, and Hendo.

It's literally the exact same thing Fedor did in his bouts outside of PRIDE, while PRIDE champion...

 

[JBJisGOAT14]

Jon Jones has been in 5 non-UFC exhibition grappling bouts competing against taxi drivers, fake wrestlers, and Hendo.

It's literally the exact same thing Fedor did in his bouts outside of PRIDE, while PRIDE champion...

No it’s not because it’s not counted on his MMA record and we don’t use it in goat conversations meanwhile you people use the whole “mythical 10 year unbeaten” record for Fedor meanwhile he was fighting multiple fighters with 0 and 1 wins.

 

[J Danger]

How good was Fedor?

I have a hard time genuinely believing that Fedor is truly elite and up there with goats such as

GSP
Anderson
MM
Jones
DC

Fedors record was too padded he fought in such a different weak era and when Fedor came up against semi modern MMA fighters he got beaten badly and could not hang

Some say that he could not hang because of his age. I do not believe this one bit. The real issue was he came up against modern MMA fighters. Isn't is such a coincidence he only started to lose once he faced true elite HWs and all of a sudden he was "out of his prime."

Anderson wrecked Hendo, Fedor a HW got wrecked by Hendo.

Werdum stopped Fedor

And I believe prime Fedor would lose to

Poatan
Anderson
Cain
DC
Aspinal
Gane
Nganu
Black Beast
Jones
Overseen


Fedor has such a padded record and had huge holes in his game

Fedor had poor Boxing, poor fight IQ, poor bottom game. Jones would take him down and elbow him to oblivion.

Fedor was a good fighter but should not be compared to the true elite.

Fedor's myth is more folk lore and myth. His best wins are Cro cop and Nog. Cro cop and nog are good but have glaring holes in their game.

Who’s Fedor

 

[Taric]

No it’s not because it’s not counted on his MMA record and we don’t use it in goat conversations meanwhile you people use the whole “mythical 10 year unbeaten” record for Fedor meanwhile he was fighting multiple fighters with 0 and 1 wins.

Nobody in the history of ever has argued that Yuji Nagata has added anything to Fedor's legacy. Nobody cares about his NYE bouts, they were exhibition bouts. You have to treat them in the same manner you are treating Jones' exhibition bouts right now. They aren't even MMA bouts, they had different rules.

From 2003-2010 Fedor was the consensus #1 HW in the world. That's a fact. In that time span Fedor, as the #1 HW in the world, had 13 victories in actual MMA organizations (PRIDE, Afflicition, and Strikeforce) with actual MMA rulesets.

1. Nogueira
2. Fujijta
3. Coleman
4. Randleman
5. Ogawa
6. Nogueira
7. TK
8. Cro Cop
9. Coleman
10. Hunt
11. Sylvia
12. Arlvoski
13. Rogers

GSP, as a comparison, as the #1 WW in the world had 11 victories in the UFC.

1. Hughes
2. Serra
3. Fitch
4. Penn
5. Alves
6. Hardy
7. Koscheck
8. Shields
9. Condit
10. Diaz
11. Hendricks

You're trying to tell me that a couple of exhibition bouts are knocking Fedor's legacy down when his reign was, at bare minimum, comparable to the most accomplished welterweight in MMA history?

You're an idiot.

 

[JBJisGOAT14]

Nobody in the history of ever has argued that Yuji Nagata has added anything to Fedor's legacy. Nobody cares about his NYE bouts, they were exhibition bouts. You have to treat them in the same manner you are treating Jones' exhibition bouts right now. They aren't even MMA bouts, they had different rules.

From 2003-2010 Fedor was the consensus #1 HW in the world. That's a fact. In that time span Fedor, as the #1 HW in the world, had 14 victories in real MMA organizations (PRIDE, Afflicition, and Strikeforce).

1. Nogueira
2. Fujijta
3. Coleman
4. Randleman
5. Ogawa
6. Nogueira
7. TK
8. Cro Cop
9. Coleman
10. Hunt
11. Sylvia
12. Arlvoski
13. Rogers

GSP, as a comparison, as the #1 WW in the world had 11 victories in the UFC.

1. Hughes
2. Serra
3. Fitch
4. Penn
5. Alves
6. Hardy
7. Koscheck
8. Shields
9. Condit
10. Diaz
11. Hendricks

You're trying to tell me that a couple of exhibition bouts are knocking Fedor's legacy down when his reign was, at bare minimum, comparable to the most accomplished welterweight in MMA history?

You're an idiot.

Lmao TK, Fujia, out of prime Sylvia, one dimensional Randleman and Coleman. Your list proves how overrated he truly was. Thanks for helping my point dummy.

 

[Taric]

Lmao TK, Fujia, out of prime Sylvia, one dimensional Randleman and Coleman. Your list proves how overrated he truly was. Thanks for helping my point dummy.

Oh good. This the part of the conversation where Fitch, Alves, Hardy, Koscheck, and Nick Diaz are better than guys that have multiple UFC championships. The part of the conversation where factual information no longer applies and it's 100% pure revisionist opinion.

Always a hoot.

 

[JBJisGOAT14]

Oh good. This the part of the conversation where Fitch, Alves, Hardy, Koscheck, and Nick Diaz are better than guys that have multiple UFC championships. The part of the conversation where factual information no longer applies and it's 100% pure revisionist opinion.

Always a hoot.

Nope, GSPs resume isn’t very good either. Jones is goat and that’s undisputed. GSP and Fedor are about equal somewhere behind bones goat, both resumes are super average.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Nobody in Fedors era fought top competition consistently because the matchmaking landscape was completely differnt in those days.

He still fought elite HWs at their peak consistently enough to measure his success against them while averaging 5 fights per year.

Fedor fought Magomedov and Oleinik in full contact, combat sambo in 2003- a year in which Fedor already had 5 fights and a championship fight. The Oleinik fight was full contact bare knuckle. That's 7 fights in one year.

By the time Fedor lost by KO at 33 he had over 35 fights and had been a pro for 11 years.

Stipe got knocked out by Struve when was 30 years old, in his 10th fight, 3 years into his career- Fedor was already fighting for a world title against the best HW on the planet and winning in dominant fashion.

Werdum was 39 years old and went 4-5 in his next 9. It's a good win buts not as good as beating an all time great HW at their peak.

36 year old Overeem had been fighting for over 15 years and had been knocked out like 16 times by the time he fought Stipe and had been stopped in the UFC 3x before he fought Stipe. A good win at best.

JDS beat Stipe when he still had some youth left in the tank the first time they fought even though he was already a shell of his former self by that point due to the beatings he took from Cain. By the time Stipe finally beat JDS he was officially washed up and never won two in a row ever again. Good win but nothing special.

Arlovski had been knocked out like 10x by the time Stipe beat him. Never went on another run after that. Good win but nothing special.

Francis was dangerous but still very green and mentally weak. He lost to Derrick Lewis in his very next fight. Still a good win but its not a coincidence that he absolutely melted Stipe in the rematch when he hit his peak. It was congruent with my narrative.

Name one all time great HW Stipe beat during their peak. You can't and his consistent crushing of senior citizens doesn't offset that. Does that mean Stipe sucks? No. He's an all time great HW who is probably top 5-7 all time depending on who you ask.

For me personally its hard to put Stipe ahead of guys like Fedor, Nog, Werdum, DC and Cain who destroyed some of the greatest HWs ever while they were at their very best. For me thats more important than crushing washed up HWs with consistency.

Maybe Cain is the only guy from this bunch which I could put Stipe ahead of in terms of legacy because of Cains short career but even then Cain absolutely smashed peak all time great JDS twice- something Stipe has never accomplished.

This isn't even a knock on Stipe. Being a top 5 HW of all time is an incredible achievement.

Good sparring bruv.

You contradicted yourself when you said Stipe never beat an all time great yet he beat DC (in your top 5 above). Your qualifier is in their PRIME. You claim Prime HWs are youthful and that premise is faulty. You claim losses after Stipe fought many opponents means they were washed. Winning streaks happen at the beginning of careers as level of opponents is weaker and (If you follow the usual track) gradually increase in quality. Stipe's level of competition rose and then never dropped off at all. In the current era once you get to the higher level they don't drop down massively. You don't have Stipe fighting #35 ranked HWs and same goes for his opponents. Werdum's record is one you pointed to being 4-3 (1NC) and should have been 5-3 as Ferreira tapped out. (Bare Knuckle is a different sport IMO.) Not a bad record and all top 10 opponents (save Alex Gus being his HW debut).

You discount the win over Francis as he was too young and green so I guess Francis was better when they fought the second time. Doesn't that fly in the face of discounting Stipe's wins due to the age of his opponents (35 not 40). Experience matters as you pointed out with Frank so why are all Stipe's more experienced opponents all inferior in your mind? 35 is ancient at lower weight classes. Fighters over 35 have a horrible record in title fights in WW and lower.

HW is a whole different story. HW history is full of 35 plus fighters at the top.
Randy won all his titles over the age of 35 at HW & LHW.
Mo Smith over 35 when he won UFC title
Bas Rutten was 34 when he won UFC title
Carwin was 35 when he won Interim UFC title
Werdum was 37 when he won Interim UFC title & 38 when he won UFC title
Stipe was 35 when he won UFC title and 39 when he last defended against DC
DC was 39 when he won UFC title
Francis was 35 when he won UFC title
Jon Jones was 36 when he won UFC title

LHW
Alex Pereira is 36
Glover was 42
Blachowicz was 37
DC was 36 when he won and 39 in his last defence
Chuck was 36 when he won UFC title
Randy was 40 when he won UFC title, 41 when he won it again .

That is a lot of Champions 35 and over. Your assumption that PEAK for HW is in your 20's (if 35 is Ancient) is clearly faulty. You ask for context when looking at Fedor's resume and then use no context when assessing Stipe's and specifically dismissing his wins as having poor records (Werdum's post Stipe record which was a winning one BTW).

Good sparring but we aren't looking at the world through the same lens. My assessment is that Fedor gets a lot of love for his streak but it was littered with cans and he was very much like Royce Gracie. He had skills in areas where his opponents had glaring holes. When he faced opponents that were more well rounded he had a number of losses. Stipe's entire career has been against more well rounded opponents and IMO Fedor would not achieve the same or better against that string of opponents. It can never be proven either which way unless one of us invents a time machine and can take 33 year old Fedor and put him in a cage with 33 year old Stipe.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

no way dude. Stipe got TKO'd by Stefan Struve LOL. Fedor had the obvious way harder HW murderer's row compared to Stipe. That kind of comparison just proves how little some people know, and shows that you were not watching at that time. You lack perspective.

Fedor got KO'd by MW Dan Henderson & slow as molasses in January Bigfoot, and Meathead Mittrione & Ryan Bader & Ryan Bader again. Guess Fedor got hit so hard you got CTE and forgot?

Stipe at 33 beat Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem & JDS by KO and a 5 round domination of Francis. Show me where Fedor fought 6 top 10 HWs CONSECUTIVELY?

At 33 Fedor fought Werdum, Bigfoot and Dan Henderson in a row. How did that turn out? Fedor then went on a 5 fight win streak over Monson, Ishii, Rizzo, Singh and finally won a fixed fight by MD against Fabio Maldonado that he clearly lost yet. It was such an egregiously bad decision WMMAA "Unofficially" overturned it to a draw.

Then a 4-3 record in Bellator with his 3 losses being by brutal KO.
Don't be a PRIDE hipster. Its far worse then being a TUF Noob.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

You contradicted yourself when you said Stipe never beat an all time great yet he beat DC (in your top 5 above). Your qualifier is in their PRIME. You claim Prime HWs are youthful and that premise is faulty. You claim losses after Stipe fought many opponents means they were washed. Winning streaks happen at the beginning of careers as level of opponents is weaker and (If you follow the usual track) gradually increase in quality. Stipe's level of competition rose and then never dropped off at all. In the current era once you get to the higher level they don't drop down massively. You don't have Stipe fighting #35 ranked HWs and same goes for his opponents. Werdum's record is one you pointed to being 4-3 (1NC) and should have been 5-3 as Ferreira tapped out. (Bare Knuckle is a different sport IMO.) Not a bad record and all top 10 opponents (save Alex Gus being his HW debut).

You discount the win over Francis as he was too young and green so I guess Francis was better when they fought the second time. Doesn't that fly in the face of discounting Stipe's wins due to the age of his opponents (35 not 40). Experience matters as you pointed out with Frank so why are all Stipe's more experienced opponents all inferior in your mind? 35 is ancient at lower weight classes. Fighters over 35 have a horrible record in title fights in WW and lower.

HW is a whole different story. HW history is full of 35 plus fighters at the top.
Randy won all his titles over the age of 35 at HW & LHW.
Mo Smith over 35 when he won UFC title
Bas Rutten was 34 when he won UFC title
Carwin was 35 when he won Interim UFC title
Werdum was 37 when he won Interim UFC title & 38 when he won UFC title
Stipe was 35 when he won UFC title and 39 when he last defended against DC
DC was 39 when he won UFC title
Francis was 35 when he won UFC title
Jon Jones was 36 when he won UFC title

LHW
Alex Pereira is 36
Glover was 42
Blachowicz was 37
DC was 36 when he won and 39 in his last defence
Chuck was 36 when he won UFC title
Randy was 40 when he won UFC title, 41 when he won it again .

That is a lot of Champions 35 and over. Your assumption that PEAK for HW is in your 20's (if 35 is Ancient) is clearly faulty. You ask for context when looking at Fedor's resume and then use no context when assessing Stipe's and specifically dismissing his wins as having poor records (Werdum's post Stipe record which was a winning one BTW).

Good sparring but we aren't looking at the world through the same lens. My assessment is that Fedor gets a lot of love for his streak but it was littered with cans and he was very much like Royce Gracie. He had skills in areas where his opponents had glaring holes. When he faced opponents that were more well rounded he had a number of losses. Stipe's entire career has been against more well rounded opponents and IMO Fedor would not achieve the same or better against that string of opponents. It can never be proven either which way unless one of us invents a time machine and can take 33 year old Fedor and put him in a cage with 33 year old Stipe.

Stipe lost to every all time great HW he ever faced that was either at their peak or close to it. His win over DC was good but DC was 40 and retired immediately after. That's not someone who is peaking- so no- that's not a win over an all time great HW in their prime.

Guys like Glover and Jan became champions in their 40s because the division sucked at thet time and regressed badly. There's a reason for why Glover got melted by guys like Rumble and Gus and had nothing for Jones- it's because they were levels above him. Its no coincidence Jan was a prelims guy in those days. Then suddenly when all those guys were gone and Glover and Jan became champions in their 40s? You think this is because they were that good? No. It was because the division began to suck.

For that same reason Alex is so dominant at MW and LHW today. Both divisions have regressed badly. Alex wouldn't be able to string 3 consecutive wins in the Jon Jones - DC- Gus- Rumble era of LHW. This is why Alex barely beat or needed a gift decision over 41 year old Jan. Levels.

Same can be said about MW during the Weidman- Romero- Rockhold- Jacare- Mousasi- Silva- Hendo- Sonnen era. I'd be shocked to see Alex become champion in that era or even win 3 consecutive fights. I hope it's starting to make sense to you now. When you beat someone and the state of the division at the time matters more than who you beat.

Just like Poatan, Stipe fought in a weaker era of aged HWs. This is why he never beat an all time great HW at their peak and lost to every all time great HW he ever fought who were either peaking or close to their peak.

Lost to post Cain JDS the firs time.
Lost to 40 year old DC the first time by first round KO.
Lost to Ng once Ng hit his peak in devastating fashion.

These things matter when comparing legacies of all time great fighters.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Fedor got KO'd by MW Dan Henderson & slow as molasses in January Bigfoot, and Meathead Mittrione & Ryan Bader & Ryan Bader again. Guess Fedor got hit so hard you got CTE and forgot?

Stipe at 33 beat Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem & JDS by KO and a 5 round domination of Francis. Show me where Fedor fought 6 top 10 HWs CONSECUTIVELY?

At 33 Fedor fought Werdum, Bigfoot and Dan Henderson in a row. How did that turn out? Fedor then went on a 5 fight win streak over Monson, Ishii, Rizzo, Singh and finally won a fixed fight by MD against Fabio Maldonado that he clearly lost yet. It was such an egregiously bad decision WMMAA "Unofficially" overturned it to a draw.

Then a 4-3 record in Bellator with his 3 losses being by brutal KO.
Don't be a PRIDE hipster. Its far worse then being a TUF Noob.

At 33 years old Fedor had 35 fights and 11 years in the game.

At 33 Stipe had 15 fights and 6 years in the game.

Stipe got nuked by Stefan Struve when he was 30 years old and at his physical peak with 10 fights of experience. You think Fedor would have lost to Struve 10 fights into his career? Lol, no. Because Fedor was on a higher level than Stipe.

"FEDOR LOST TO A MW"

You criticize Fedor for losing to all time great Hendo and Bigfoot when Fedor was 6 years past his prime but Stipe getting knocked by Struve during his physical peak is 100x more embarassing and pathetic.

Classic noob post. It's no coincidence you rank Stipe above Fedor. Just admit you're UFC fanboy and we can end this debate.

 

[moreorless87]

Agreed and no shame in that.

I think he was definitely a very smart fighter, good at maximising advantage with the skill set to do it but I do wonder if forced to face really elite skill without that how well would he do?

Achievement wise he's definitely towards the top of HW but I think because he was well suited to his era.

 

[Taric]

Nope, GSPs resume isn’t very good either. Jones is goat and that’s undisputed. GSP and Fedor are about equal somewhere behind bones goat, both resumes are super average.

So every fighter in the history of fighting is a bum who fought even worse bums, except Jones. Fantastic analysis.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

How good was Fedor?

I have a hard time genuinely believing that Fedor is truly elite and up there with goats such as

GSP
Anderson
MM
Jones
DC

Fedors record was too padded he fought in such a different weak era and when Fedor came up against semi modern MMA fighters he got beaten badly and could not hang

Some say that he could not hang because of his age. I do not believe this one bit. The real issue was he came up against modern MMA fighters. Isn't is such a coincidence he only started to lose once he faced true elite HWs and all of a sudden he was "out of his prime."

Anderson wrecked Hendo, Fedor a HW got wrecked by Hendo.

Werdum stopped Fedor

And I believe prime Fedor would lose to

Poatan
Anderson
Cain
DC
Aspinal
Gane
Nganu
Black Beast
Jones
Overseen


Fedor has such a padded record and had huge holes in his game

Fedor had poor Boxing, poor fight IQ, poor bottom game. Jones would take him down and elbow him to oblivion.

Fedor was a good fighter but should not be compared to the true elite.

Fedor's myth is more folk lore and myth. His best wins are Cro cop and Nog. Cro cop and nog are good but have glaring holes in their game.

Another dumbass thread by you lol.

He beat Arlovski and Sylvia, both in their primes, along with the ones you mentioned. He was a generational talent.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

Fedor got KO'd by MW Dan Henderson & slow as molasses in January Bigfoot, and Meathead Mittrione & Ryan Bader & Ryan Bader again. Guess Fedor got hit so hard you got CTE and forgot?

Stipe at 33 beat Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem & JDS by KO and a 5 round domination of Francis. Show me where Fedor fought 6 top 10 HWs CONSECUTIVELY?

At 33 Fedor fought Werdum, Bigfoot and Dan Henderson in a row. How did that turn out? Fedor then went on a 5 fight win streak over Monson, Ishii, Rizzo, Singh and finally won a fixed fight by MD against Fabio Maldonado that he clearly lost yet. It was such an egregiously bad decision WMMAA "Unofficially" overturned it to a draw.

Then a 4-3 record in Bellator with his 3 losses being by brutal KO.
Don't be a PRIDE hipster. Its far worse then being a TUF Noob.

You say that as if Dan Henderson isn't one of the best to ever do it.

He was far out of his prime in Bellator my man.