How good was Fedor really? Was he truly elite?

[ilfirin]

GOAT. End of story. Anyone who's been following MMA for long enough will say the same for the most part. There's a reason most MMA fighters also hold him as the GOAT. There has never been anyone like Fedor, and I sincerely doubt we'll see the likes of him again.

 

[LampShade94]

Fedor was great, but saying he cleaned out HW is just laughable propaganda.

He beat everyone in the Pride HW division, which was far tougher than the UFC's HW division. He then KO's Sylvia and Arlovski who were at the top of the UFC HW division for a long time. Not sure how that doesn't fit the definition of "cleaning out". He only started taking losses after he had 10 years of mileage on him.

 

[markg171]

You're desperately trying to discredit Fedors legacy like the rest of the geeks in this thread. Oddly every pro fighter celebrates Fedors legacy as one of the best ever.

The best HWs of Fedors generation were Mirko, Nog, Tim, AA and Randy. You also had guys like Barnett, Sergei and Werdum but they all lost to eachother or to Big Nog.

Fedor completely destroyed Nog at his peak twice and Nog completely outclassed every other top HW: Barnett, Werdum and Sergei. Fedor also completely out classed Mirko as well who beat Barnett multiple times.

I remember when 's on sherdog were making absurd claims that Fedor was afraid of coming to the UFC and ducking Tim and AA. There were some mentions of Randy but he was retired and had only beaten Tim so it's not like he was some super active HW during that time where people were saying Fedor had to fight him to prove himself. AA and Tim were those guys.

Nobody was talking about Fedor having to beat Mir at that time either. Literally no one. Mir was out for a long time due to injury from that motorcycle crash and when he returned he was getting mopped by the likes of Brandon Vera. No one was saying Fedor had to fight Mir to prove himself or clean out the division.

Bringing up Brock is weird because he didn't become champion until 2008 in the tail end of Fedor's run and retired with less than 10 fights. He's not an all time great like the others I mentioned above.

I've literally never seen anyone claim that Fedor had to beat Brock to clean out the division. If Fedor beat Brock guys like you would move the goalposts and say he now had to beat Cain and JDS. I know how it goes you fools.

Fedor beat the best HWs of his generation minus Josh and Randy who he tried to fight but couldn't. Either way neither of them could beat Nog and Mirko who Fedor beat handily. I'd say that's pretty close to cleaning out the division when you also consider that Fedor also beat Hunt, Herring, Coleman, Randleman and Schilt who took up a lot of HW top 10 during Fedors run.

Look at you going and proving my point by schreeching your dick off when somebody points out any criticism of Fedor, even despite the person agreeing Fedor was #1.

Sad.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

He's the GOAT, that the GOATs acknowledge.

This is really it right here.

Most of the top fighters in ALL eras love the guy, and know his greatness. Cans on the internet love to hate and disagree. Maybe a fallacy, but I will argue from authority on this one.

 

[markg171]

He beat everyone in the Pride HW division

There's like a dozen fighters he never fought in Pride, especially considering they did openweight fights or had guys bounce between divisions which opens it even further.

In before you say someone else beat them as though Fedor never fought guys coming off losses or cans like Zulu, and instead try and pretend he was a champion who only fought whoever was the next contender up.

There's plenty of people he never fought in Pride. It's why despite having had like 20 fights over there you guys have to narrow his accomplishments down to like Nog, CC, Herring, Coleman, Randleman, and Hunt

He then KO's Sylvia and Arlovski who were at the top of the UFC HW division for a long time

If you're going to include Sylvia and Arlovksi it's absolutely fascinating how you don't include who the other UFC fighters at the time were back then, let alone the actual top UFC fighters by this point in time when he fights them.

He can "clean out HW" by beating Sylvia, while never beating Randy who's the one who took the belt from Sylvia a year before. Or Brock who beats Randy that same year Fedor beats Sylvia. Or Mir who beats Nog that year who'd beaten Sylvia earlier in the year too, and Mir had beaten Sylvia years prior for his original belt on top of that.

Fascinating how I can list 4 fighters right there ahead who he could've been fighting but wasn't, and you can claim with a straight face he cleaned out HW by fighting Sylvia.

Not sure how that doesn't fit the definition of "cleaning out".

Hope the above helped pal.

Fedor was #1 at the time, but pretending he ever at all did some kinda Jones, GSP, DJ, etc run during it where he actually cleaned out his division is beyond laughable propaganda.

 

[george14]

You're saying things haven't evolved because the current champion is a guy who was an enormous evolution at the time that's literally still successful to today.

This is just so sad and beyond ridiculous.

You are looking at this in a strange way, if I may say. You need to look at the entire landscape of the division, not 1, 2, or even 10 fighters.

Take a look at the top 15 right now. To your point, Jones and Aspinall are definitely well-rounded, but also keep in mind Jones started his UFC career in 2008; he is not a new fighter at all.

In my personal opinion, I do not think the HW division has evolved at all. It doesn't mean some fighters wouldn't beat the 2005 era fighters, it just means the talent doesn't appear to be any better.

 

[markg171]

You are looking at this in a strange way, if I may say. You need to look at the entire landscape of the division, not 1, 2, or even 10 fighters.

Take a look at the top 15 right now. To your point, Jones and Aspinall are definitely well-rounded, but also keep in mind Jones started his UFC career in 2008; he is not a new fighter at all.

In my personal opinion, I do not think the HW division has evolved at all. It doesn't mean some fighters wouldn't beat the 2005 era fighters, it just means the talent doesn't appear to be any better.

Following this kind of logic, HW during Fedor's era didn't evolve either from previous eras if we remove guys like Fedor from it.

Do you see how silly that sounds?

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Stipe fought in 7 years:
Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem, JDS 2x, Ngannou 2x, Cormier 3x

Fedor fought in 7 years:
Schilt, Herring, Nogueira 3x, Coleman (1 loss removed from beeing champion), Randleman (beat top ranked CC), Cro Cop, Hunt, Sylvia, Arlovski

If you look at it like that, then Fedor fought the same amount of "consecutive" quallity opponents as Stipe. But those are all fight that Stipe fought.
Fighting top opponent once a year, and then fighting next year is not "CONSECUTIVELY".

While Stipe was sitting on his ass, resting and waiting for next "consecutive" opponent next year, Fedor was fighting. He fought additional
solid & dangerous opponents like

Fujita (Top 10), Goodridge, Koshaka who previously beat him, Rogers (Top 10), Ogawa (Top 15), Linland...

where he almost got KO'd, and got injured. He fought some cans like Nagata, Valavicius, but at HW lot of unforseen things can happen, he fought giants with huge size advantage like Zuluzinho and Choi, who were undefeated and eager to utilize their advantage, and you actually had to step into the ring and prove with your skin that their size advantage does not count.

It is harder to fight quality oppontes in the same or greater frequency, with solid medium and weaker opponents added inbetween, like Fedor and Pride guys did, which carry more danger and risk of beeing caught and beaten, or getting injuries which can cost you a defeat later. If Stipe fought additional 5-6 Struves in that run, he could have easily lost more fights, or lose the fights he won, due to wear, burnout and injuries.

Fair Points. The difference in Era's makes it hard to compare their careers.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Lol he wasn't brought in to get an easy win. He was 10-0. He was feared and undefeated. You have no proper recognition of the past.

You are serious?
10-0 against pure cans and one 22 second KO over AA and he was Hyped but was he really Feared? You think Fedor was scared of losing to him the way he might have been against an actual skilled opponent? GTFO. You have no proper recognition of REALITY.

You are seriously trying to sell Rogers as anything but a CAN?

 

[JKS]

This isn't hard mate.

Did Jon Jones represent an evolution in MMA or not? And is the current HW champion not also Jon Jones?

You're really trying to skirt around the issue that the current HW champion is a dude who can conventionally fight with the best of them while also perfectly doing shit like spinning elbows and oblique kicks instead of just spamming overhand rights cause it completely destroys your narrative.

Like I said. Sad nostalgia is sad.

This is nothing to do with nostalgia dummy. I said that every other division has shown drastic evolution and improvement in skills from the mid 2000s to now, HW is the only that hasn't. If this was about nostalgia I would be giving you some tale about how everything was better back then. Learn to read.

It's not hard, you're just making it hard lol.

Jon Jones did represent an evolution in MMA, however, as I pointed out numerous times, that evolution came 10-15 years ago. Your point was about how the HW division has evolved today as a whole. I've pointed out numerous times that it hasn't because the fighters are actually less evolved than those of 10-15 years ago at HW. Jon Jones does not represent the evolution of HW division today, he's a fighter that brought his skills set that developed 10-15 years ago to a division that has devolved.

Why don't you give me a list of 5 newer HWs from the last 3-5 years that have shown a evolution at HW. Jon Jones does not count BTW.

 

[LampShade94]

There's like a dozen fighters he never fought in Pride, especially considering they did openweight fights or had guys bounce between divisions which opens it even further.

In before you say someone else beat them as though Fedor never fought guys coming off losses or cans like Zulu, and instead try and pretend he was a champion who only fought whoever was the next contender up.

There's plenty of people he never fought in Pride. It's why despite having had like 20 fights over there you guys have to narrow his accomplishments down to like Nog, CC, Herring, Coleman, Randleman, and Hunt

If you're going to include Sylvia and Arlovksi it's absolutely fascinating how you don't include who the other UFC fighters at the time were back then, let alone the actual top UFC fighters by this point in time when he fights them.

He can "clean out HW" by beating Sylvia, while never beating Randy who's the one who took the belt from Sylvia a year before. Or Brock who beats Randy that same year Fedor beats Sylvia. Or Mir who beats Nog that year who'd beaten Sylvia earlier in the year too, and Mir had beaten Sylvia years prior for his original belt on top of that.

Fascinating how I can list 4 fighters right there ahead who he could've been fighting but wasn't, and you can claim with a straight face he cleaned out HW by fighting Sylvia.

Hope the above helped pal.

Fedor was #1 at the time, but pretending he ever at all did some kinda Jones, GSP, DJ, etc run during it where he actually cleaned out his division is beyond laughable propaganda.

Wow i didnt think id trigger a life long Fedor hater lol. "Plenty of people he never fought in Pride". Yet you aren't naming any of them. Wanderlei? As soon as Wanderlei moved to HW he got his head kicked off by CroCop. Then he switched to the UFC. I can't think of any others Fedor didn't fight. So enlighten me.

Beats Sylvia and Arlovski who both dominated the UFC heavyweight division for years and you're acting like those wins mean nothing. The only significant fighter of that era he didn't fight was Randy. And that's because the UFC didn't want to pay Fedor what he was worth at the time. Can't hold that against him. When you speak of Brock you're speaking of the next era of HW fighters. I wouldn't expect Fedor to beat these people after 10 years of mileage. But that's what sherdoggers demand. Imagine Jones taking on Pereira and Hill. Jones loses and then everyone says Jones was never any good. That's how it always goes on here.

 

[markg171]

Wow i didnt think id trigger a life long Fedor hater lol. "Plenty of people he never fought in Pride". Yet you aren't naming any of them. Wanderlei? As soon as Wanderlei moved to HW he got his head kicked off by CroCop. Then he switched to the UFC. I can't think of any others Fedor didn't fight. So enlighten me.

I like how you went and did exactly what I said you'd do by saying it's okay that he never fought someone like Wanderlei cause Wand instead lost to CC.

Even though Fedor did in fact fight fighters coming off losses, let alone cans instead. It's so much better to have fought Zulu instead of someone like Wand.

Beats Sylvia and Arlovski who both dominated the UFC heavyweight division for years and you're acting like those wins mean nothing. The only significant fighter of that era he didn't fight was Randy. And that's because the UFC didn't want to pay Fedor what he was worth at the time. Can't hold that against him. When you speak of Brock you're speaking of the next era of HW fighters. I wouldn't expect Fedor to beat these people after 10 years of mileage. But that's what sherdoggers demand. Imagine Jones taking on Pereira and Hill. Jones loses and then everyone says Jones was never any good. That's how it always goes on here.

Brock, who took the title from Randy, doesn't count but Randy literally 1 day prior to that while he's literally the reigning champion instead would?

Okay.

As to your Jon example, you're proving yourself ridiculous for all to see for two reasons:

- Jon would be fighting them 16 years into his career, not 10 like you say is perfectly fine for Fedor to be losing too. Remind me again what happened at 10 years for Jon? Oh yeah, Jones was still winning and beating the next generation of LHWs
- Jones actually did clean out LHW, multiple times, by fighting the next contender one after the other. Which isn't what Fedor did, thus this entire discussion about how he never cleaned out HW. It's, you know, why Jon has 16 title fights in a row by this point meanwhile Fedor never did despite being champion that long too as he was instead doing tons of random fights instead.

You guys ALWAYS do this. You can't just accept that people acknowledge Fedor was the #1 HW for that period like you want. You have to say some additional complete nonsense claim like he also cleaned out HW, a completely laughable assertion. Then you screech your dicks off the moment anybody bursts your hyperbole nonsense.

 

[markg171]

This is nothing to do with nostalgia dummy. I said that every other division has shown drastic evolution and improvement in skills from the mid 2000s to now, HW is the only that hasn't. If this was about nostalgia I would be giving you some tale about how everything was better back then. Learn to read.

It's not hard, you're just making it hard lol.

Jon Jones did represent an evolution in MMA, however, as I pointed out numerous times, that evolution came 10-15 years ago. Your point was about how the HW division has evolved today as a whole. I've pointed out numerous times that it hasn't because the fighters are actually less evolved than those of 10-15 years ago at HW. Jon Jones does not represent the evolution of HW division today, he's a fighter that brought his skills set that developed 10-15 years ago to a division that has devolved.

Why don't you give me a list of 5 newer HWs from the last 3-5 years that have shown a evolution at HW. Jon Jones does not count BTW.

As I said here, follow your absurd logic that it's okay to remove Jones to its obvious conclusion:

Following this kind of logic, HW during Fedor's era didn't evolve either from previous eras if we remove guys like Fedor from it.

Do you see how silly that sounds?

It's beyond silly to take out the fighter(s) who represent a change. Of course THAT fighter is the evolution. That's literally how it works. They come in doing something differently than their peers. It's not their problem if the other fighters don't fight like that or don't know how to adapt to it. No matter if it's been 15 years.

You're not proving any points by saying we can just remove Jones from the equation. You're just being absurd.

 

[NoStoneUnturned]

I can't stand the dude or his quote "magical" aura that so many seem to relish, but man that dude could fight and will forever be one of the GOATs. It is ridiculous the amount of people who are so irrational that they can't separate their dislike from evaluating how good somebody is. Dude was as legit as anyone who ever fought. Straight up killer.

 

[JKS]

As I said here, follow your absurd logic that it's okay to remove Jones to its obvious conclusion:

It's beyond silly to take out the fighter(s) who represent a change. Of course THAT fighter is the evolution. That's literally how it works. They come in doing something differently than their peers. It's not their problem if the other fighters don't fight like that or don't know how to adapt to it. No matter if it's been 15 years.

You're not proving any points by saying we can just remove Jones from the equation. You're just being absurd.

Okay okay, I don't think you're really understanding what is going on here. Let me see if I can be more clear.

I am not disputing anything regarding Jon and how his skill set and how he developed his game was more evolved. He certainly was on another level when he was moving up the ranks and as a champion from 2009 to 2014. Those were Jones years of evolution. So I am with you on Jones and the evolution.

What I am saying is that Jones doesn't represent the evolution of the HW division in 2023 onward. First and foremost, Jon is not the entire HW division, he's one fighter. And two, like I said, Jon and his evolution came 10-15 year ago, that is when he developed as a fighter and evolved the game. Not in 2023 or 2024.

Your entire argument and point is that the HW division is more evolved now in 2023/2024 than it was in 2004 to 2012. But yet you can't give any examples of that aside Jon Jones, a fighter who evolved the game 10-15 years prior. And Jon himself has only one fight at HW, he's not even proven at HW.

I've asked you numerous times, show me these evolved HWs who evolve the HW division in the last few years??? Who are they?? Give me names and examples.

I on the other hand have listed every top HW in the last few years and shown examples how they are inferior to HWs of 2004 to 2012.

 

[forsh]

Prime Fedor is one of the most dangerous fighters anyone could ever fight in the history of MMA. He is the all time heavyweight MMA GOAT.

 

[Crutchley29]

He was THE elite HW of his era. That's all that needs to be said.

MMA was different then, fighters were still learning the "mixed" part - we had grapplers, we had BJJ guys, we had wrestlers, and then we had Fedor.

His record is what it is. He fought everyone they put in front of him, and he dominated them.

 

[george14]

Following this kind of logic, HW during Fedor's era didn't evolve either from previous eras if we remove guys like Fedor from it.

Do you see how silly that sounds?

I'm not the one asserting HW MMA has evolved - you are.

Here's are the HW rankings from January of 2005 + some accomplishments thereafter:
1 Fedor
2 Big Nog - won UFC interim title 3 years later, lost it 4 years later
3 Hunt - Fought for interim UFC title 9 years later
4 Cro Cop - won PRIDE GP following year, mediocre UFC career, won RIZIN GP 11 years later
5 Arlovski - won UFC title after and set record for most wins in UFC HW history
6 Mir - won UFC interim title 4 years later and challenged for UFC title 7 years later
7 Kharitonov - never in UFC
8 Barnett - good UFC career after but his main success came pre-2005
9 Machida - became UFC champion 3 years later and challenged for belt 9 years later
10 Sylvia - fell off and racked up some wins against cans

As you can see, it's a mixed bag, but plenty went on to have success (in the UFC) thereafter and into the new era. There really isn't evidence that the guys today (at HW) are better given many of them are also one-dimensional. Of these fighters listed, plenty of them had success after many of the fighters in the top 15 today started their careers. Hell #10 Tuivasa won a controversial decision over Arklovski who was 40 at the time. #6 Volkov racked up quite a few losses to Bellator guys that this forum routinely shits on. #13 Lewis lost to Mark Hunt.

 

[JKS]

Following this kind of logic, HW during Fedor's era didn't evolve either from previous eras if we remove guys like Fedor from it.

Do you see how silly that sounds?

That's where you are wrong, like really wrong. The HWs from the previous era were completely one dimensional. You had guys like Coleman, Randleman, Kerr, Mo Smith, Pete Williams, Rizzo, Severn, Tank, etc. These guys were very limited in their skill sets and game plans.

Fedor's era was 2001 to 2008 where you had a much more evolved HWs who had striking, submissions, grappling. Much more well rounded games. This era had Barnett, Big Nog, Arlovksi, Mir, Couture, Sergei, Overeem, Cain, JDS, Cro Cop, Ricco, Aleks.

You're really gonna tell us that those HW's are not as evolved as the era prior 1995 to 2001?? You can take Fedor out of it.

Again, the difference is that Fedor came up in his era with all these HW's. He was part of this rise from 2001 to 2009. Jon Jones was not part of this HW era, he didn't come up the ranks in it. He was a elite fighter from 10-15 year ago. He doesn't represent any evolution at HW.

 

[markg171]

He was THE elite HW of his era. That's all that needs to be said.

MMA was different then, fighters were still learning the "mixed" part - we had grapplers, we had BJJ guys, we had wrestlers, and then we had Fedor.

His record is what it is. He fought everyone they put in front of him, and he dominated them.

Fedor wasn't even that "mixed" if we're actually being honest. He was just really great at a couple of moves, the whole Bruce Lee quote of fearing the man who's done 1 kick 10,000 times because that man actually knows how to do it vs the man who's done 10,000 different kicks once. Fedor learned a few moves very well.

Which yes at the time was a massive improvement over a lot of his peers who were specialists.

Pretending though like he was going around with some very deep skillset is silly though. He wasn't even going around flying kneeing guys or teep kicking them, let alone landing rarer stuff like say ninja chokes. His skillset wasn't that deep, just very maxed out in a few moves.