How subjective are BJJ belt rankings?

[SAMURAI SPIRIT]

For those who have trained under multiple schools under various instructors, how subjective are belt promotions? I was told by someone that he used to train in two different schools at the same time. One was giving him a purple which he declined as he was with another school. The other school took almost two years to recognize that he was at the purple belt level.

Any thoughts?

 

[EndlessCritic]

In the grand scheme it's all trivial. Of course there is a great deal of subjectivity.

I used to believe that purple belt was reserved for truly elite guys. But I've encountered some brown belts I can clown, and white belts who can smash me. (Really it was one 6'4 super athletic guy.) Belts are really meaningless. The mats don't lie.

 

[TheJewBear]

Extremely subjective. Almost to a degree of meaninglessness.

There's a former wrestler in my town who took up BJJ. He competed as a white belt and tapped one of Keenan's black belts in competition (no-gi advanced). He got promoted to blue belt shortly after and has been unstoppable. I guess you could argue that he doesn't have a full knowledge of using the gi, BJJ-specific grappling or whatever. But for him to have been kept a white belt as long as he was and for him to probably remain a blue belt for several years is just stupid.

 

[RemyR]

These days it’s more or less a measure of how long you’ve been doing BJJ for. And in general time on the mat = more skill, but obviously that doesn’t take into account previous grappling history or physical freaks.

 

[Evenflow80]

Very subjective .

We have blue belt killers that run circles around brown belts.

I've come to accept its all about mat time. The more you come in and train, the better you'll be.

After doing this for years , as the sport grows I think the best way to promote people somewhat consistently is to give them a mark on their card for the day if they complete the drills AND get in some rolls at thr end of class. If they don't roll they don't get credit. After a while a black belt analyzes them and sees if they sre up for promotion or not. Still subjective but at least there is some standard expectation

A bigger point though : you spend the majority of your bjj career at black belt anyways . Decades vs mere years at the colored belts. So in a way the colored belts won't mean anything in thr long term

 

[ChickenBrother]

For those who have trained under multiple schools under various instructors, how subjective are belt promotions? I was told by someone that he used to train in two different schools at the same time. One was giving him a purple which he declined as he was with another school. The other school took almost two years to recognize that he was at the purple belt level.

Any thoughts?

Assuming the guy was showing up regularly at both places, I think 2 years variance is on the extreme end but it's not surprising. There's traditional significance at each BJJ belt color and that's something cool and worth preserving.

IMO what is long past its expiration date (and has diverged massively from what belt colors are supposed to represent) is separate competition divisions for each belt. Given the subjectivity in belt promotions, there's no objective delineator at lower belts and as skill level at every belt has gone up over the years, major tournament placers at blue or even white are hardly "novices."

 

[EGDM]

For those who have trained under multiple schools under various instructors, how subjective are belt promotions?

+/- 50%. I've seen black belts given to people who would have been borderline purples in a stingy gym.

It really doesn't matter, though. Rolls don't lie. The only problem is that we collectively seem to think it's ok that belt rank is an amalgamation of random factors and simultaneously should also be a strict and universal peak performance indicator. That's just a flawed premise. IMO we should calculate ELO ratings for competitors and organize them that way totally independent of rank.

 

[shunyata]

+/- 50%. I've seen black belts given to people who would have been borderline purples in a stingy gym.

It really doesn't matter, though. Rolls don't lie. The only problem is that we collectively seem to think it's ok that belt rank is an amalgamation of random factors and simultaneously should also be a strict and universal peak performance indicator. That's just a flawed premise. IMO we should calculate ELO ratings for competitors and organize them that way totally independent of rank.

ELO would be awesome but also hillarious.

"1800 rated gatekeeping brown belt checking in"

"can't even hit 2600 at brown, you suck bro!"

 

[Krimzon]

Belts help me determine whos egos I need to protect by accidentally releasing near submissions.

-8 year blue belt

Belt are definitely at least on the individual gym level an accurate approximation of skill. Inter-gym, it gets a little loosey

 

[ChickenBrother]

IMO we should calculate ELO ratings for competitors and organize them that way totally independent of rank.

Couldn't agree more. But the closest approximation is the way Judo does grading. You accumulate promotion points for beating competitors at your current or higher belt and there's essentially two competition divisions, novice (white, yellow, orange, green) and advanced (brown and black). So there's no such thing as a "high level" Judo yellow or orange belt because those are designated novice belts and if your competition performance warrants it, you'll very quickly be merited a brown.

Although there can be politics and bureaucracy to get black (in the U.S. I believe you still have to perform Nage No Kata at senior nationals), you're eligible for any advanced tourney as a brown and if you're defeating black belts, you'll undoubtedly get batsugan promoted to shodan anyway.

This fixes two issues 1) sandbagging is impossible and 2) emphasis is on putting up or shutting up in competition. Winning in competition gets you promoted very quickly. On the other hand, if you never compete, you're subject to standard time in grade requirements and shodan will likely take 10 years, comparable to hobbyist BJJ BBs.

 

[Ladder Master]

Edit
Wrong thread
Signed 4+ year whitebelt

 

[Cameron]

With the NOGI specifically the belts really are meaningless. Especially for competitors. The belt system is more important for hobbyists at this point.

 

[mattemate]

Depends. Sometimes just stick around long enough, you get promoted. A guy I trained with a long time ago that I didn't see in years is getting a little older now, he's been a brown belt for a couple years. I was rolling with him, and he was saying that I missed an opportunity for a triangle. He didn't realize I was going easy on him. I stepped it up a bit. He had NEVER seen a berimbolo, and barely knew how to do a bow and arrow choke, and was blown away by the way I set it up and finished it.

Is he a legit brown belt? Yeah, I would say so, he's good at what he's good at. There are blue belts at my current academy that would wreck him. He's still knowledgeable. It is what it is. Belts are relative indicators of time and skill. Do all college grads REALLY have the same level of education? Hell no.

 

[sb413197]

We have blue belt killers that run circles around brown belts.

Is he a legit brown belt? Yeah, I would say so, he's good at what he's good at. There are blue belts at my current academy that would wreck him. He's still knowledgeable. It is what it is. Belts are relative indicators of time and skill.

There's a former wrestler in my town who took up BJJ. He competed as a white belt and tapped one of Keenan's black belts in competition (no-gi advanced). He got promoted to blue belt shortly after and has been unstoppable. I guess you could argue that he doesn't have a full knowledge of using the gi, BJJ-specific grappling or whatever. But for him to have been kept a white belt as long as he was and for him to probably remain a blue belt for several years is just stupid.

A wave of incredible young grapplers is something I've noticed lately too. I don't know if it's the internet or just the evolution of BJJ, but I've started to see some lower belts who progress at an almost unbelievable speed - faster than anything I ever saw 10+ years ago. It can be a little tough to swallow to see someone young in their BJJ journey being that good, but it kind of makes sense as the sport develops and people take the competition and training more seriously - many Judokas and wrestlers (and competitors in other sports) at the very top of the game are very young.

I think some of the change might be improved coaching as well. A lot less time spent in stuff that doesn't have much relevance and more time hard rolling, drilling etc. Less Sensei and more Coach, these days, with a focus on rapid sports specific progress.

 

[ChickenBrother]

A wave of incredible young grapplers is something I've noticed lately too. I don't know if it's the internet or just the evolution of BJJ, but I've started to see some lower belts who progress at an almost unbelievable speed - faster than anything I ever saw 10+ years ago. It can be a little tough to swallow to see someone young in their BJJ journey being that good, but it kind of makes sense as the sport develops and people take the competition and training more seriously - many Judokas and wrestlers (and competitors in other sports) at the very top of the game are very young.

I think some of the change might be improved coaching as well. A lot less time spent in stuff that doesn't have much relevance and more time hard rolling, drilling etc. Less Sensei and more Coach, these days, with a focus on rapid sports specific progress.

Danaher once made a good point that it's POSSIBLE to become elite after around 4 years of training. It's not the norm but you sometimes see it with top competitors. That's why competitor skill levels have diverged so far from hobbyists at the same belt. Whether they compete or not, most BJJers will get blue around 2 years training time, then purple after another 2+ years. But the dedicated blue belt competitor with 4 years' training will not only have multiples of the hobbyist's mat time, he'll also likely be on a much steeper learning curve due to greater aptitude and dedication.

It's humbling but the mats don't lie. I've been blue for 3.5 years (up for purple this year) and have 13 years of grappling across wrestling, Judo and BJJ. I can have my way with the "average" blue at our gym but have rolled with plenty of blues (not even top competitors) with 3-4 years' training who eat my lunch and not simply on physicality - they've acquired greater skill in much less time than I have. And don't even get me started on the 19 yo "purples" who went through kids' ranks and have been training BJJ since age 6.

 

[lechien]

For those who have trained under multiple schools under various instructors, how subjective are belt promotions? I was told by someone that he used to train in two different schools at the same time. One was giving him a purple which he declined as he was with another school. The other school took almost two years to recognize that he was at the purple belt level.

Any thoughts?

Very subjective since any black belt can promote his students to his own criteria's.

I like my criterias.

To be honest when I hear about students that are kept at blue belt for four years. It makes me cringe.

Some people would reason that they have higher standards but for me it is like a kid keep repeating the same class over and over. Maybe something with the teacher?

 

[mattemate]

A wave of incredible young grapplers is something I've noticed lately too. I don't know if it's the internet or just the evolution of BJJ, but I've started to see some lower belts who progress at an almost unbelievable speed - faster than anything I ever saw 10+ years ago. It can be a little tough to swallow to see someone young in their BJJ journey being that good, but it kind of makes sense as the sport develops and people take the competition and training more seriously - many Judokas and wrestlers (and competitors in other sports) at the very top of the game are very young.

I think some of the change might be improved coaching as well. A lot less time spent in stuff that doesn't have much relevance and more time hard rolling, drilling etc. Less Sensei and more Coach, these days, with a focus on rapid sports specific progress.

Danaher once made a good point that it's POSSIBLE to become elite after around 4 years of training. It's not the norm but you sometimes see it with top competitors. That's why competitor skill levels have diverged so far from hobbyists at the same belt. Whether they compete or not, most BJJers will get blue around 2 years training time, then purple after another 2+ years. But the dedicated blue belt competitor with 4 years' training will not only have multiples of the hobbyist's mat time, he'll also likely be on a much steeper learning curve due to greater aptitude and dedication.

It's humbling but the mats don't lie. I've been blue for 3.5 years (up for purple this year) and have 13 years of grappling across wrestling, Judo and BJJ. I can have my way with the "average" blue at our gym but have rolled with plenty of blues (not even top competitors) with 3-4 years' training who eat my lunch and not simply on physicality - they've acquired greater skill in much less time than I have. And don't even get me started on the 19 yo "purples" who went through kids' ranks and have been training BJJ since age 6.

My current coach, Gabriel Martins, is a great example of this, as both a competitor and a teacher. My academy, IJJ, has an interesting lineage. The founder, Elcio, was a brown belt under Rolls when Rolls died in the hang gliding accident. He got his black belt from Carlson, but the Rolls influence and open mindedness is clearly there. My coach grew up training with Buchecha as kids (Buchecha went up to brown at IJJ until some of the team split and formed Checkmat), and as a featherweight having to survive against an animal like that you can imagine he's pretty good. I'm not going to name names but I've seen him smash a lot of good guys. He's definitely at the elite level, just a hair down from the Mendes brothers and Miyaos. And a great coach. I took some time off the past year, and I come back and there's a fresh crop of white belts that are GOOD, some really tough blues and purples. Now with the Danaher Douche Squad coming to town, it's going to up the level another notch. Xande has a gym here too now. Lots of tough mofos. Tim Kennedy. Shit's getting lit. I don't really give a shit about competition, I got into martial arts because I'm from a tough hometown and got tired of getting my ass kicked. My approach is it's not about self confidence or whatever, it's about being able to fuck someone up if you have to, by any means necessary. Just a survival thing, so I guess I still have more of a Gracie type mentality. That said, I love the sport, I love training, and I'm constantly impressed by the innovations and the crops of kids coming up. And I think the way it's being taught, there are going to be more and more people getting to black belt level in five years or less.

 

[Kevza]

Ive trained in different places ( as im sure alot of you here have ), and the standard can vary tremendously.

Im settled now, but as a white belt i tended to drop into different places now and then, while remaining at one place regularly.

The place i was in has several blue belts and none are that good, as ive dropped in and am still friends with the instructor there.

Where i currently train, and will continue to train is a room full of absolute studs. The blue belts all feel really high level, and i know for a fact that they are very fussy with promoting ( which , for me, is exaclty what i want ).

 

[CI]

super subjective. seems like its business strategy to get money.

 

[mattemate]

Where i currently train, and will continue to train is a room full of absolute studs. The blue belts all feel really high level, and i know for a fact that they are very fussy with promoting ( which , for me, is exaclty what i want ).

I feel the same. I was a nasty, raggedy ass blue belt before being promoted, and I liked it that way, sandbagging accusations be damned. I've been purple for a couple years now, and I don't train as much as I should or would like to, but again, I don't care about the color of my belt. I didn't start martial arts to be a black belt, I started because I was tired of getting my ass kicked. Before the latest break I took, I rolled at an open mat with a random 3rd deg. BB who couldn't tap me. He probably would have won on points if it were a scored match, but when time expired I had moved from his closed guard to his half guard and was working a pass. At the same time, first time back after covid, at my own gym, a young athletic blue blet I previously handled with ease was able to tap me twice in 8 minutes. Props to him, I'm GLAD to be at an academy with really good lower belts, and him tapping me is more of a sign of my coach's teaching abilities and the overall level of the gym than anything else. When I go to open mats I usually smash other purple and browns, and hold my own with the blacks, and tap them sometimes.