Identifying if someone is legitimate or fraudulent in weapons

[emax]

So when it comes to weapons and tactics, when you see weapons specialists giving demonstrations and who've become popular for giving them, you often see heated responses from those who say they are legitimate and those who say they have zero actual skills and are just con artists.

Here is an example of one specialist demonstrating his skills, Hock Hocheim

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And another example, from someone who has been featured on a Spike TV combat show and maybe others as well and who has apparently taught members of the Armed Forces and has his own knife fighting classes, Jason "Snake" Blocker, whom you may or may not know of

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When I hear other proclaimed experts comment on these videos, I hear everything from they are genuinely legit fighters to these guys have zero skills and if they are giving classes then they are completely crooks and are no different than the Nigerian scammers because of how fraudulent they are being.

So how can I tell what is accurate? How can you tell in these videos if these experts, so to speak, are teaching valid stuff or trying to rob you blind?

 

[golvmopp]

Dont know about you but anything that assumes that an attacker will remain static for even a split second, and builds techniques around this assumption (especially considering dynamic scenarios where adrenaline will be pumping like crazy) is full of shit.

Also, how do you train this at intensity to atleast gain SOME understanding of how you'll actually react in a life or death-situation? You can't. Meaning that any technique which stretches further than "avoid the blade/line of fire, close distance fast and hope the wounds you get in the ensuing clusterfuck aren't fatal" is probably nothing more than mental masturbation.

 

[JusticeMonkey]

That Snake Blocker guy was also on an episode of Doomsday Preppers. He was not very impressive. He considers his motorcycle to be a better option for fleeing the city than jeep wrangler during the chaos of mass evacuation

 

[emax]

Dont know about you but anything that assumes that an attacker will remain static for even a split second, and builds techniques around this assumption (especially considering dynamic scenarios where adrenaline will be pumping like crazy) is full of shit.

I suppose this is a reasonable presumption to make, granted, this pretty much covers just about any weapons fighting demonstration shown on any videotape ever. Which does sort of drastically limit the legitimate options.

He considers his motorcycle to be a better option for fleeing the city than jeep wrangler during the chaos of mass evacuation

And that's what the main objection you had was? I mean, I can see a motorcycle being a more valid option in a scenario where you need to get to a safe spot as quickly as possible and need something that can most effectively maneuver around highways.

 

[Protectandserve]

Generally anyone who says they have invented a new system, claims there stuff is CQC, CQB or some other catch phrase is full of it.

As are guys who claim they trained SF who do not have verifiable credentials, usually to include DD214's, verified deployments and having seen actual combat.

I mentioned in other threads, Jim Wagner. Dude has been on the cover of Black Belt magazine and even got Boker knives to market a knife with his name on it. Dude is a complete hack. I took a course with him, cause it was cheap, my PD covered it and I wanted to test a rifle. Dude was embarrassingly bad. Was trying to demo sniper rifle employment and missed a shot completely with a zeroed rifle on a 100 yard head sized target. This is the same shots I was making with little to no effort with an unzero'd rifle with iron sights.

I looked through his scope and saw he literally had an old school straight crosshairs reticle on some piece of shit scope that he claimed was widely used by "operators."

Did some research on him and talked to a few people who knew him, all his credentials were completely fabricated, as was his so called SWAT experience and military background.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Generally anyone who says they have invented a new system, claims there stuff is CQC, CQB or some other catch phrase is full of it.

As are guys who claim they trained SF who do not have verifiable credentials, usually to include DD214's, verified deployments and having seen actual combat.

I mentioned in other threads, Jim Wagner. Dude has been on the cover of Black Belt magazine and even got Boker knives to market a knife with his name on it. Dude is a complete hack. I took a course with him, cause it was cheap, my PD covered it and I wanted to test a rifle. Dude was embarrassingly bad. Was trying to demo sniper rifle employment and missed a shot completely with a zeroed rifle on a 100 yard head sized target. This is the same shots I was making with little to no effort with an unzero'd rifle with iron sights.

I looked through his scope and saw he literally had an old school straight crosshairs reticle on some piece of shit scope that he claimed was widely used by "operators."

Did some research on him and talked to a few people who knew him, all his credentials were completely fabricated, as was his so called SWAT experience and military background.

I lack the balls to be that kind of liar. It seems to pay off for people more often than I'd like to think.

 

[emax]

Generally anyone who says they have invented a new system, claims there stuff is CQC, CQB or some other catch phrase is full of it.

As are guys who claim they trained SF who do not have verifiable credentials, usually to include DD214's, verified deployments and having seen actual combat.

I mentioned in other threads, Jim Wagner. Dude has been on the cover of Black Belt magazine and even got Boker knives to market a knife with his name on it. Dude is a complete hack. I took a course with him, cause it was cheap, my PD covered it and I wanted to test a rifle. Dude was embarrassingly bad. Was trying to demo sniper rifle employment and missed a shot completely with a zeroed rifle on a 100 yard head sized target. This is the same shots I was making with little to no effort with an unzero'd rifle with iron sights.

I looked through his scope and saw he literally had an old school straight crosshairs reticle on some piece of shit scope that he claimed was widely used by "operators."

Did some research on him and talked to a few people who knew him, all his credentials were completely fabricated, as was his so called SWAT experience and military background.

The combat community has been passionate about bringing Wagner down as a fraud. As shown here:

http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=5346

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=4080.0

The second link is the forum of the first guy in the videos I posted, Hock Hocheim. And granted, looking at it again it does seem like is sort of like an insurance or used car salesman, a guy with authentic military training who plays up the training and credentials he does have to attract customers. I'm guessing a lot of military combat instructors feel pressured to do this since they may find very few if any comparable opportunities after leaving the military.

The consensus from those in the military seems to be that it is alright for combat instructors to want to earn a good living off of this, so long as they are not telling blatant lies and, much more important, not taking customer's money and giving them fraudulent training that can get them badly hurt or killed. Wager is becoming known fro being the latter and so authentic martial artists are passionate now about stopping this dude.

This, btw, is Wagner's attempts at advertising in his own words:

Few self-defense instructors in the world can come close to Mr. Wagner's background: former soldier, jailer, street cop, SWAT officer, diplomatic bodyguard, and most recently, a counterterrorist with the United States government. In addition, Jim Wagner is one of the world's top police and military Defensive Tactics and Tactics instructor's, having trained elite units worldwide

 

[Protectandserve]

^I raged so hard seeing his fucking knife in the Deutsche PX in Kandahar. Wanted to smash the glass case and throw that thing in the damn poo pond.

 

[emax]

^I raged so hard seeing his fucking knife in the Deutsche PX in Kandahar. Wanted to smash the glass case and throw that thing in the damn poo pond.

So has the military actually had Wagner teach soldiers and officers about combat training? I hope not.. The second guy, who btw has been featured on a couple cheesy combat type shows like Deadliest Warrior, was placed in charge of teaching combat techniques to military members, as shown in that last video which was a video from the Army's youtube channel. Given this, I would hope that a. The second guy in that video, who is teaching actual members of the Armed Forces, is at least teaching them moves that are legit and will actually help them and b. Much more so than no members of the Armed Forces have ever entrusted Jim Wagner with anything with regards to how to protect themselves.

 

[Long Dark Blues]

That Snake Blocker guy was also on an episode of Doomsday Preppers. He was not very impressive. He considers his motorcycle to be a better option for fleeing the city than jeep wrangler during the chaos of mass evacuation

If I was single with no kids and it was for evacuating an area as quickly and efficiently as possible, I'd rather have a dirt bike over any other type of motorcycle or even a Jeep.

But, I have a family, so I'd definitely take the Jeep or Humvee over anything else.

I suppose this is a reasonable presumption to make, granted, this pretty much covers just about any weapons fighting demonstration shown on any videotape ever. Which does sort of drastically limit the legitimate options.

I don't think it covers just any weapons. Avoidance is definitely option #1 for going up against any weapon, but you are less likely to die in a scramble against something like a bat or other blunt object. But in a scramble against an edged weapon, you're pretty much fucked no matter what. Avoid the scramble, just get the fuck out of there.

 

[Protectandserve]

So has the military actually had Wagner teach soldiers and officers about combat training? I hope not.. The second guy, who btw has been featured on a couple cheesy combat type shows like Deadliest Warrior, was placed in charge of teaching combat techniques to military members, as shown in that last video which was a video from the Army's youtube channel. Given this, I would hope that a. The second guy in that video, who is teaching actual members of the Armed Forces, is at least teaching them moves that are legit and will actually help them and b. Much more so than no members of the Armed Forces have ever entrusted Jim Wagner with anything with regards to how to protect themselves.

Jim is in the California State Reserves, which is not the National Guard or the Federal Reserves. It is what he claims as his military background. He was given an NCO rank and maybe teaches some stuff to the State Reserve guys.

He apparently was also part of a legitimate training company at one time but in a very minor role. That group apparently did some military training.

Also the Snake Guy appears to be teaching a voluntary course at the MWR(rec room) at Kandahar. Does not appear he is teaching a DOD course/certification in Apache Knife Fighting.

 

[golvmopp]

Looking at the Hock-videos, the concepts that he outlines in the first video prior to the "demonstrations" are sound, but the super-compliant partner confirms the "mental masturbation"-aspect. Looking at the sparring video of the seminar just confirms what a clusterfuck an actual situation will look like against a determined opponent. Basically, if someone of remotely similar stature wants you dead and is brandishing an edged weapon, your chances of coming out on top are in the single digits.

 

[Snakesolidsnake]

As are guys who claim they trained SF who do not have verifiable credentials, usually to include DD214's, verified deployments and having seen actual combat.

This. I've met a lot of guys who claimed to be some form of SF when they find out that I was in the Marines (I was definitely a POG, and I'll always admit that). A friend of a friend claims he was Delta Force, and isn't shy about telling anyone about it, but he seemed to not even grasp the basic fundamentals of firing a pistol. I think the truth is he got injured and couldn't complete Ranger school. Definitely watch out for all of the guys claiming to be SF (most of the guys who are were doesn't tell the world about it) because in my experience most of them are frauds.

As far as the videos, the first guy seems to know a bit (just watched the first vid). If it's unarmed v. knife, really the only thing you can do is try to control the knife arm and try to disarm - just know you probably will get cut.

The second guy I would discard just on his name alone. If the guy's name/program name sounds like something a 10 year old would make up so his friends thinks he's cool, I'm usually going to dismiss that as something legitimate.

Just remember that there is no one great system for weapons fighting. I doubt anyone is coming up with ground breaking new techniques that haven't been thought of before. If they do, that's pretty rare. Stick with the tried and true martial arts taught by those who can show they've actually trained rather than the guys who look like they learned everything off of YouTube or in their own basement.

 

[98bird]

Good way to test your weapons skills right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4i7tDGxEoM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjAkbQb6axU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17C1VvhjIzg


Not perfect, but a lot more realistic than the average weapons sparring.

My go to method vs. a knife (empty handed), is to rely on my Boxing and punch the face, repeatedly. The knife hand is too fast, but I'm fast enough to double and triple jab someone. Stunning and KO'ing the slow moving or non-moving head is the best bet to stop a knife attack.

I also daily carry a 5.5" razor sharp blade everywhere and 9mm wherever legal. Hopefully it never gets to this point.

 

[JohnSouth]

This guy knows his shit, good video.

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Anyone who spars like this will get it eventually.

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[golvmopp]

^Those two vids are incredibly informative. By far the best I've seen on the subject. That last bit on the second video is something I've thought about - improvised weapons. Taking your jacket or shirt off and using it as a trapping or distraction device should be viable if you've got the space.

 

[Roaming East]

ask him what color the boathouse in hereford is.

 

[Protectandserve]

ask him what color the boathouse in hereford is.

What color is the boat house? How the hell should I know?

Awesome Ronin reference.

 

[D Train]

I saw one of those shows that matched SF from different countries against each other in combat scenarios. One of the scenarios was knife fighting. Neither operator seemed at all proficient and it looked just like if you and your buddy were trying to tag each other with wooden knives. Jabbing tended to work better than slashing.

 

[SummerStriker]

Knife fighting is incredibly similar to boxing. The ability to simultaneously block or parry with one hand while punching or stabbing with the other is the most fundamental technique when it comes to knife fighting, while learning to wrestle with wrist control is a close second.

In virtually all cases, a martial artist will be able to knife fight worse than he is able to box or wrestle because knife fighting uses very similar skills and includes lots of clinching and boxing technique, but is much harder. In other words, if you can't even fist fight there is just no way you are going to be able to defend yourself against an armed attacker.

If someone is able to learn to do real hard empty handed martial arts, they probably have the capacity to learn other things as well and have some idea of the complexities of a resisting opponent. So in my opinion the first thing you want to know about a knife fighting instructor is if he can fist fight.

Secondly, you should try to determine if he is teaching an art because he thinks it is pragmatic or because he loves the art and culture. I took 5+ years of Kali and Silat from someone who barely cared at all about the practicality of it. He loved the forms, the dances, the music, the clever moves and doing lock flows. Sparring empty handed he was a certified bad ass with many amateur fights in different styles and sparred all his students and visitors, but he never, ever critiqued weapon sparring and never participated in it. He thought weapon arts were just art.

The third thing you have to ask is for the pragmatic people - are they only fooling themselves and their students to gain courage. To win a knife fight you have to be an optimist. You have to believe you can injure him against the odds or knock him out. If you can't do that, you are fucked. A lot of martial arts, and in my opinion that includes military combative, are practically full of shit but exist only to trick the soldier into believing in himself so that he doesn't run away. When the fight starts, he will just do whatever he can anyway - fight - if he is a fighter. That means the most important aspect of the art is that it seems right and makes you feel good intellectually to do.

So at the end, if you find a fighter who teaches martial arts he believes in pragmatically instead of artistically and who is not simply repeating the mantra of conviction that he won't run away, then you might be onto something.