International Is Israel really a US ally??

[My name is]

There's so many lies no government knows the truth anymore

 

[bongwater]

yes israel is an ally! reported thread for antisemitism!

 

[Islam Imamate]

Wouldn't it be pretty hypocritical for them to denounce Russia?

Remember last year when the media was trying to convince us it was OK for Israel to bomb Palestinian civilian apartment buildings, and that they deserve that land because it used to be theirs 1,000 years ago?

Funny how quickly that narrative can change.

The standard argument against that is that Palestine is technically not a sovereign state so Israel's aggression towards it is qualitatively different from Russia's. I don't really buy it and anyway you can just replace Palestine with Lebanon since Israel had occupied South Lebanon for a while, had overseen massacres of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, and invaded back in 2006 whereupon they decided to destroy the entire country's infrastructure and have constantly threatened to do so again.

 

[moosaev]

Why can't it be those things? Those are tangible benefits. Most of the time states make alliances its for realpolitik reasons like that, its just that in democracies that kind of logic makes for terrible optics so the politicians have to justify it some other way. To be fair I think there are some sincere Zionist politicians who believe that Israel and the US legitimately share values and therefore are more like one another than Israel is to its neighbors.

Again we're the global power here, of course we have far more to offer Israel than Israel can offer us. That's how a hegemon builds a globe spanning alliance structure, by offering each individual state more than it gives in return.

There is an element of quid pro quo to an alliance. As an example, the UK backed the US invasion of Iraq despite the fact that it was a very unpopular war in Britain and had no tangible benefit to the UK. The UK made the decision to support based on the "special relationship". THAT is an alliance.

Put another way, when has Israel ever sacrificed for the US for the sake of the alliance? The US begged them not to sell sensitive technology to China, they ignored them and sold to China. Do you think the British would've ever done that? Of course not. With Israel there is no quid pro quo, there is only quid. Israel helping the US on Iran intel benefits Israel more than it does the US, that's not an alliance.

 

[Danger Dave]

Israel is like a rescue dog. It has been beaten by every owner it has ever had and defends itself at all times.

I live in the USA thousands of miles from most other countries.

Israel is a very small country right in the middle of the hottest parts of the world and everyone around them wants to kill them.

An extremely brave people. They cant catch a break.

 

[JSN]

Basically a parasite.

 

[Islam Imamate]

There is an element of quid pro quo to an alliance. As an example, the UK backed the US invasion of Iraq despite the fact that it was a very unpopular war in Britain and had no tangible benefit to the UK. The UK made the decision to support based on the "special relationship". THAT is an alliance.

Put another way, when has Israel ever sacrificed for the US for the sake of the alliance? The US begged them not to sell sensitive technology to China, they ignored them and sold to China. Do you think the British would've ever done that? Of course not. With Israel there is no quid pro quo, there is only quid. Israel helping the US on Iran intel benefits Israel more than it does the US, that's not an alliance.

The UK legitimately has a "special relationship" with the US, I'd agree that Israel is nowhere near the ally they are.

 

[moosaev]

Israel is like a rescue dog. It has been beaten by every owner it has ever had and defends itself at all times.

I live in the USA thousands of miles from most other countries.

Israel is a very small country right in the middle of the hottest parts of the world and everyone around them wants to kill them.

An extremely brave people. They cant catch a break.

A rescue dog that mauls the neighbors kids, shits on their lawn, attacks the mail man, and then cries animal abuse when a child throws a rock at it.

 

[moosaev]

The UK legitimately has a "special relationship" with the US, I'd agree that Israel is nowhere near the ally they are.

This isn't just about the British though. I could list off a dozen countries who wouldn't sell sensitive technology to the Chinese if the US asked them not to, all the five eyes nations for starters, pretty much all of western europe, and a few more on top of that. But that was too much for Israel to sacrifice, giving up a few shekels in defense contracts at the request of America was a bridge too far for them. They're not an ally.

 

[Danger Dave]

A rescue dog that mauls the neighbors kids, shits on their lawn, attacks the mail man, and then cries animal abuse when a child throws a rock at it.

when your neighbors fire missles at your house you might be slightly annoyed.

 

[Danger Dave]

This isn't just about the British though. I could list off a dozen countries who wouldn't sell sensitive technology to the Chinese if the US asked them not to, all the five eyes nations for starters, pretty much all of western europe, and a few more on top of that. But that was too much for Israel to sacrifice, giving up a few shekels in defense contracts at the request of America was a bridge too far for them. They're not an ally.

The US isnt much of an ally either currently.

Because of our self interests.

 

[Islam Imamate]

This isn't just about the British though. I could list off a dozen countries who wouldn't sell sensitive technology to the Chinese if the US asked them not to, all the five eyes nations for starters, pretty much all of western europe, and a few more on top of that. But that was too much for Israel to sacrifice, giving up a few shekels in defense contracts at the request of America was a bridge too far for them. They're not an ally.

I certainly wouldn't argue that they're a reliable ally. Despite the supposed closeness of the US and Israel, the US it the standard bearer of the liberal world order while Israel is a bit of a rogue state within that order. Hence their willingness to sell that sensitive radar tech to the Chinese or skirting sanctions on Burma to sell them arms. Israel benefits when other rogue nations can circumvent the constraints of the liberal order since it tries to do so as well.

 

[moosaev]

when your neighbors fire missles at your house you might be slightly annoyed.

This is like Russia saying "if the Ukrainians are attacking our soldier's, what're we supposed to do? We're defending ourselves!"

 

[moosaev]

I certainly wouldn't argue that they're a reliable ally. Despite the supposed closeness of the US and Israel, the US it the standard bearer of the liberal world order while Israel is a bit of a rogue state within that order. Hence their willingness to sell that sensitive radar tech to the Chinese or skirting sanctions on Burma to sell them arms. Israel benefits when other rogue nations can circumvent the constraints of the liberal order since it tries to do so as well.

Israel has been ignoring US requests and demands for decades. I still haven't heard a credible argument that they're an ally, let alone an unreliable one as you say. It seems like you're just defaulting to conventional wisdom that US is an ally. If thats what you call an ally then the term ally is meaningless.

 

[Danger Dave]

This is like Russia saying "if the Ukrainians are attacking our soldier's, what're we supposed to do? We're defending ourselves!"

Its true.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Israel has been ignoring US requests and demands for decades. I still haven't heard a credible argument that they're an ally, let alone an unreliable one as you say. It seems like you're just defaulting to conventional wisdom that US is an ally. If thats what you call an ally then the term ally is meaningless.

We have shared interests and cooperate on intelligence, that's enough to be an ally in my eyes. Of course I don't think they're a very good ally and I wouldn't mind dropping them or at least expecting more of them and handing out less. I think most posters here know I'm not a fan of the Zionist state, I just try to be fair in analyzing it.

 

[moosaev]

The US isnt much of an ally either currently.

Because of our self interests.

We give them $3 billion annually in military aid, we give them iron dome and restock their ammo when they bomb women and children in Gaza, we give them carte blanche protection at the UN security council, and we allow their PMs to give speeches to joint sessions of congress insulting our President. I'd say thats pretty solid allyship.

 

[moosaev]

The standard argument against that is that Palestine is technically not a sovereign state so Israel's aggression towards it is qualitatively different from Russia's. I don't really buy it and anyway you can just replace Palestine with Lebanon since Israel had occupied South Lebanon for a while, had overseen massacres of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, and invaded back in 2006 whereupon they decided to destroy the entire country's infrastructure and have constantly threatened to do so again.

Not only that, Israel annexed the Golan Heights which is an internationally recognized part of Syria. How is that different from Russia annexing Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk, etc?

 

[Danger Dave]

We give them $3 billion annually in military aid, we give them iron dome and restock their ammo when they bomb women and children in Gaza, we give them carte blanche protection at the UN security council, and we allow their PMs to give speeches to joint sessions of congress insulting our President. I'd say thats pretty solid allyship.

Not sure why people are so anti Jewish. They are fighting for their right to exist. More than I can say for most countries.

 

[moosaev]

Not sure why people are so anti Jewish. They are fighting for their right to exist. More than I can say for most countries.

They're fighting to steal Palestinian land, not to exist. They have nukes, their right to exist is assured.